posted on May 10, 2001 03:44:35 PM new
I ordered a camera from a seller 6 weeks ago, paid via paypal and still no delivery. Empty promises repeatedly. This seller now has a total of 45 negs out of 148 fb's. I emailed Ebay to ask why they haven't suspended this crook....what does it take???
posted on May 10, 2001 04:14:47 PM new
Probably not until he gets he gets a lot of people emailing safeharbor. It may be in the process of happening now. A day or two, he could be history.
Did you check feedback before you bid? And did he have those negs when you bid, or have they come after the fact?
[ edited by loosecannon on May 10, 2001 04:16 PM ]
posted on May 10, 2001 04:51:01 PM new
Start emailing other bidders, ask them to contact safeharbor.
To be honest, with even 20 negs on that kind of feedback I would have walked away from the auction.
Best of luck
posted on May 10, 2001 04:52:01 PM new
If you used your credit card on PayPal request a chargeback for non-receipt of merchandise. You are getting close to the 60 day limit to dispute the charge. If PayPal gets enough chargebacks they will suspend him, too.
Also contact the local (his) authorities and sart the ball rolling to press charges. And be sure he knows it.
posted on May 10, 2001 04:55:09 PM new
I filed with Paypal for a refund last night. The negs are all recent...it has been over 6 weeks since the auction and majority have come in that timeframe. Also received email from seller asking if they give me a refund would I promise to leave either neutral or positive feedback. I am a Powerseller, so have contacted Powerseller Support and forwarded that email to them. Funny think is that in other cases I have complained to them and they suspend the person immediately...not this time!
posted on May 10, 2001 06:15:48 PM new
At this point don't even deal with PayPal. They'll just stall on your case until your chargeback right has expired (and you're already getting very close).
Call your credit card company immediately and initiate the chargeback process. If you don't, you'll soon be out of luck. Of course only do this if the money is more important to you than your PayPal account.
posted on May 10, 2001 07:34:52 PM new
I would love to know if it was the seller that did the same thing to me about 8 months ago. He was suspended at that time, and occasionally I check to see if he might be on under another name. The camera wasn't a mavica by any chance was it? Is your seller in CA?
Not my name on ebay.
Please file a Buyer Complaint before filing a charge back. We will attempt recovery before a user needs to file a charge back and our terms of use do ask that users contact us before filing a charge back. Users typically have 60 days to file a charge back, but we would like the attempt at recovery first.
posted on May 10, 2001 07:42:38 PM new
Oh, yea, right, file a report with paypal first and get 4 weeks of runaround. Nope, don't look for any help from them.
posted on May 10, 2001 07:47:24 PM new
Mr. Paypal: I filed a notice with paypal last night, 24 hours ago, and have not had a reply from them yet. If no reply tomorrow, will do a chargeback with Visa.
Also, the seller is in FL, I bought a Sony DSC-s30, FYI...or should I say attempted to buy! I checked them recently and they have 14 auctions running, some for VERY big ticket items, unbelievable!
I am going to reinforce that you will need to file a claim first.
You do not lose your charge back rights;but a condition of the service is that you must notify us first so we can prevent the need for a charge back and so we can attempt recovery. There are some anti-fraud reasons for having users advise us of an issue before filing a charge back.
posted on May 10, 2001 07:50:01 PM new
Hi susiegirl,
Thanks.
I appreciate your patience on this issue, but these inquiries are not generally answered within a 24 hour timeframe because of the investigation needed,the account review process for the recipient,etc.
Please be patient until the case is worked and you receive notification on it. As a reminder, you have not lost your charge back rights and we will attempt recovery first.
How do you know what her card issuer's policy/deadlines are regarding chargebacks?
Susiegirl:
Look at all the loopholes in the Buyer Protection Program. It's a lot of things, but "protection" it ain't.
Damon's only interest here is in making sure you take the loss here, rather than his employer.
The end result will likely be that your Paypal claim will fall under one of their loopholes, so they avoid paying. Meanwhile, the time runs on your right to recover through a chargeback, and, if Paypal delays long enough, you'll miss your card issuer's chargeback deadline as well. (There have been plenty of reports posted on these boards where that is exactly what happens.)
I would suggest you call your card issuer and get, in writing, a statement of the deadline for filing a chargeback. Different card issuers provide different levels of protection. If you've got plenty of time, then let Paypal pretend to process your claim at its leisure. But, if Paypal hasn't responded well prior to the deadline given to you by your bank, file that chargeback.
posted on May 10, 2001 09:13:22 PM new
Hi booksbooksbooks,
Most card issuers that I am aware of give the consumer sixty days to file (even longer in some cases). This information is generally on the back of any billing statement that you receive.
Hi susiegirl,
Please follow the rules that I had laid down.The Buyer Protection team processes cases as quickly as they can get them and your charge back rights are not in jeopardy.
posted on May 10, 2001 09:52:31 PM new
have a very similar experience with a seller on ebay - 14 negs recently - what DOES it take?? You would think that ebay would WANT the buying experience to be a good one... or they lose both customers AND commissions...
all of these negs referred to "paid for item - never received" - same experience I had.
By the way - check the PayPal rules CAREFULLY - the info I printed last night says you have "30 DAYS from payment to file complaint"! NOT 60 days as the paypal person has said on this thread!! Does PayPal WANT us to wait and have NO recourse?
Also, while I'm on a roll - what's this email on behalf of the FRAUDULENT SELLER thing that PayPal does?? We pay and never get item - Wonder if PayPal can be also held liable for ENCOURAGING and ENABLING a fraud!!??
Any thoughts on this?
posted on May 11, 2001 08:06:17 AM new
Mr. Paypal: You and your service were totally useless to me when I was scammed by a seller several months ago. I did everything paypal asked me to do, I was told to do the same things over and over again and PP did nothing for me. The seller's police dept and the post office finally resolved the problem, but paypal was worthless.
Not my name on ebay.
Users need to file within 30 days for a Buyer Complaint claim with us. I just wanted to clarify the misinterpretation, as a Buyer Protection claim and a charge back are separate items.
As it relates to charge backs, which are an entirely separate issue, users generally have sixty days to file one with their credit card issuer (information on filing for charge backs would be information only your card provider could give you.
Please review the web site on the Buyer Complaint process. We will attempt recovery before a user files a charge back with their credit card issuer. I can only stress the importance of advising us first... as it gives us a potential jump on someone trying to defraud users and could prevent someone from filing a charge back.
Please bear in mind that PayPal is a payment service. We are not responsible for the items that users list on another venue and we can't guarantee the goods they list there. Our anti-fraud measures are in place to prevent these users from defrauding our users and from entering the system.I urge all users to check feedback ratings to help assist in a purchase decision.
posted on May 11, 2001 10:23:24 AM new
I have over 13 years experience as a manager for one of the largest credit card issuers in the country. While most cases of dispute require notification within 60 days, an issuer on the ball can get around this in your favor. Even in cases that are way past chargeback time limits they can do what's known as a collection letter to the acquiring credit card company. In exceptional cases they can even take a write-off and issue a refund themselves.
The problem with some on-line payment services is that there may not be another card company involved. In that case the onus to resolve the problem would be on the sevice.
Also keep in mind that even in cases where a chargeback is processed on your behalf, your bank will always advise you that they have issued a "temporary credit". They don't have to do this and in fact may not. They are actually investigating and have set timelimits for this, too. It in not unusual for a case to take 60 to 90 days to be completed. You need to be patient once you've startd the ball rolling. No one resolves anything in 24 hours.
I understand your frustration but you've taken the right steps. Hopefully this guy will get his from the credit card companies, eBay and the law.
posted on May 11, 2001 10:34:46 AM new
Here is another vote for not letting PayPal take care of it. I followed the rules and got nothing and it took 3 months for that.
Just do the charge back. If PayPal closes your account you are better off.
Jim
Reminder just give me my $40.00 back and I will shut up. I am smart enough now to never use PayPal funds to pay for anything. I always empty my account then pay from a credit card so I have the charge back option.
posted on May 11, 2001 01:53:45 PM new
After my fiasco with lackofcustomer service with PP, I cleared out my funds, and took my CC off their service. My account is still open, but I haven't used it in 8 months.
Not my name on ebay.
posted on May 11, 2001 04:37:46 PM new
Hi jensmome,
Thank you for the additional information.
Hi susiegirl,
As a representative for the company, I am advising you to utilize the Buyer Complaint Process first. We will attempt recovery and your charge back rights are not lost. If we can't do it within the general 60 day timeframe, please feel free to file a charge back.
There are very legitimate reasons we want the buyer to advise us of a problem first and part of it is in detecting possibly fraudulent sellers.
posted on May 11, 2001 05:07:52 PM new
Okay, call me a skeptic, but isn't the real reason Paypal wants first crack at this because if the credit card company charges back, who pays? Paypal. In other words, Paypal is responsible for the transaction, and Paypal is out of pocket if you charge back.
Okay, I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but why else would they suspend a user who initiates a chargeback through their own credit card company? Security. Hah!
Last I heard, Paypal would only refund IF they recover the funds from the crook, and then on a first-come, first-served basis. If this guy ripped off 50 people, I'd say your chances of getting a refund from Paypal are teensy-weensy at best.
Do whatever you want, but don't wait past the limit your own credit card company sets on taking action.
Paypal suspended my account six months ago. They hassled me for months over a $17 item that the buyer claimed never arrived. Never mind that the buyer refused to file an insurance claim so I could refund to him. Never mind that the buyer (and several of his aliases) got kicked of eBay for shill bidding and other offenses. Never mind that the complainer was a crook. All Paypal cares about is making sure THEY don't get screwed for the $17. I just can't think of enough good things to say about that company.
posted on May 11, 2001 05:15:25 PM new
Hi twinsoft,
There are multiple reasons to have the buyer contact us first.
1. It gives us a jump on potential fraud.
2. The seller has the chance to defend themselves from the claim/charge back (which they are liable for).
3. Prevents the user from having to file a charge back.
I don't remember the details of your issue, but I do believe it came well before the Buyer/Seller Protection Programs were in place. These programs eliminated the problems on transactional disputes (relative to getting an account restricted).
posted on May 12, 2001 02:23:59 PM new
There are many reason why Paypal wants you to file with them first. Its called "give them the runaround until they give up"
Not my name on ebay.
posted on May 12, 2001 02:55:47 PM newPayPalDamon wrote:I am going to reinforce that you will need to file a claim first.You do not lose your charge back rights;but a condition of the service is that you must notify us first so we can prevent the need for a charge back and so we can attempt recovery.
Please do not listen to Damon. There is absolutely no advantage to you the consumer to file a claim with PayPal. The only advantage is for PayPal.
Under the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) and Electronic Funds Transfer Act (EFTA) you have 60 days to file a chargeback and the credit card or bank has up to 90 days to investigate. If you are in the right, you will get your money back.
Under the Buyer Protection program, you have 30 days to file a claim and PayPal has an unlimited time frame to investigate. After this unspecified time frame, they do not guarantee you will get your money back. The only disadvantage if you file a chargeback is PayPal may punish you by terminating your account.
P.S. Damon if you are going to spin an answer please try to explain absolutely any advantage for the consumer to use your program over their legally mandated rights under FCBA and EFTA. That is, besides PayPal terminating your account while continuing to remind you haven't lost your FCBA and EFTA rights.
posted on May 12, 2001 03:10:06 PM newPayPalDamon wrote:
If we can't do it within the general 60 day timeframe, please feel free to file a charge back.
That's strange advice considering PayPal may terminate your account at any time for filing a chargeback, even if you've given them 60 days to investigate under their Buyer Protection Program. That's according to the TOS.
Damon, are you announcing a new policy to AuctionWatch and the public?
Hey everyone! Wait close to the 60-day mark after you filed the Buyer Protection claim and then file a chargeback. I think Damon says it's okay! Print-and-save this thread.
posted on May 13, 2001 09:50:44 PM new
Or were you saying "If we can't do it within the general 60 day timeframe, please feel free to file a charge back though we may feel free to terminate your account."
PayPal(AKA PayPirates) is a service, in as much the fees we pay for using the service we hope go to providing SERVICE, and as I have pointed out more times than I care to remember, is about 2/3rd more than the cost of our merchant account. The service should be provided NOW not when YOU get around to it, I bet if she calls the 800 number on the card they will handle the problem NOW! Also by the sounds of it, her card company would be in contact with you before you got done doing what ever it is you say you guys do. which brings me to your tap dancing "I appreciate your patience on this issue, but these inquiries are not generally answered within a 24 hour timeframe because of the investigation needed,the account review process for the recipient,etc." is the first follow up email you send the user the answer to their question? i.e.: here is your money, or sorry your screwed. After all your doing all that investigating, If the first email is asking for more information, that email should have been sent within 24 hours, or your not providing the service paid for and far less service that any card company would. which would be yet another reason to shy away from PayPal.
so really what you are saying is when you sign up for with the paypirates you wave the rights you have as a card holder. just throw them out the window because like ebay you guys always know what it best for us? I don't think so, and I don't think the card companies will agree.
Maybe it's time to make it a little harder, I know everyone complains now about the service and all the problems with opening an account. But when I started selling on ebay computers cost say around 2-3 thousand dollars, almost everyone could print the end of auction letter I emailed them to send with their payment, no online payment services, checks didn't bounce, well not that I can remember. and I almost never had to file(send a "give credit" email in the old days) for my closing fees back for deadbeats. Now days it's really common to get, sorry I don't have a printer but I will send all the information with payment, hmmmmmmm now new computers cost a few hundred dollars, heck you can find them in thrift stores for 15.00(yes I have seen them this cheep for a 486) that will get you on ebay, new printers you can get them for as little as 30.00 or even free with some rebates, and they don't have a printer?? a card with a 300 dollar limit will get you up and running, I know a 17 year old kid that got an account this way. I know your not going to do a lifestyle audit on the person singing up but some back round check I think is in order. at least the card company did a back round check and I guess that is what your going on, relying on someone else to do your work for you is just setting yourself up for a fall. Is it really a surprise that now that you can buy a new computer for as little as 10x less than a few years ago that every crook, and every deadbeat can afford to play on the net at our expense?
one last thing, if you are staffed properly, and I would have to assume you are as like I said your making more money than my merchant account, and this kinda shoots ebays community values all to heck(rated G for everyone), in that they believe that people are basically good..........if everyone is such a good guy why can't you keep up with the number of complaints and get back to everyone within 24 hours, even with just a courtesy email? even if it is just a Hi my name is Paypalina and I will be helping you with this? or the Pirate version Arhhhhhhhhhhhhhh me name is Paypalina whos gottcha walk'n the plank today?
Buyer paid with credit card through PayPal 6 weeks ago. The time limit for requesting a charge-back is 60 days. Are you willing to state on this board that:
1) PayPal can complete the investigation in less than 2 weeks (before her charge-back right expires)?
2) The poster WILL get her money back if she is found to be in the right?
If not, why should this person give up her charge-back rights (including a near 100% chance of getting a full refund) just so that she can "play nice" and jump through PayPal's hoops?
I am advising the user of what needs to happen and they are more than welcome to contact me. I will have the Buyer Protection team review it as quickly as they can, but I do need these steps followed to prevent issues for the user if it does come down to filing a charge back (which the user has not given up their rights to do).
I can appreciate your efforts at trying to assist, but some of the users that are telling this customer not to follow the directions I have given are muddling the issue and causing undue concern.
