katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 08:29:48 AM
UARU - I can confirm that "person-to-person" payments being classified as cash advances IS in MBNA's Platinum Members TOS now - I received a copy of these changes in my last bill. I will go home at lunch and get the insert so I can put the exact text up here. I'm also going to try to call them and see if their Customer Service reps can explain this to me and how (if at all) it affects using services like PP/BP as a buyer and as a seller.
Yes, that would be nice to eliminate the threat of chargebacks... as a seller. But as a buyer, losing my protections via my CC would concern me greatly.. of course, I have NO protection when mailing a payment, so it's really just bring CC payments down to the level of mailed in payments.
I do NOT know what exactly they mean by person-to-person payments - if it is Paypal/Billpoint/Bidpay/etc, then I would expect a dramatic decrease in the number of cc payments being made through these services. Either buyers will use existing balances or checking accounts for Paypal, or Echecks for both services a great deal more - or they'll be sending snail mail payments (as long as I get paid, I'm not THAT picky about method of payment).
|
yisgood
|
posted on May 17, 2001 08:30:16 AM
>>If my wife or any member of my family uses my credit card without my permission (which I'd never give them) c2it will tell my issuer they are required to deny that chargeback? WHAT!?<<
Absolutely. It is YOUR responsibility to guard your card. I once had a customer charge back a laser printer I shipped him, with the excuse that his son ordered it without permission. My merchant bank denied the charge back. His merchant bank tried to insist that it go through. I called them and asked them to send me something in writing that said that a son could order whatever he wanted and the father was free to charge it back. I also told them that I had one of their credit cards and I had a son. They quickly agreed to deny the charge back.
Some of the "stupid buyer" posts here would lead folks to believe that you can charge back anything at any time for any reason. Well, actually you can. But the merchant bank does not have to agree.
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
|
brie49
|
posted on May 17, 2001 08:36:14 AM
Does this effect Visa, or only MasterCard?
|
amy
|
posted on May 17, 2001 09:22:44 AM
I'm surprised it took the credit card companies this long to decide that services such as paypal were in fact "cash advances"
Paypal charges the customer's card to fund the customer's account so the customer can then pay the seller...that sure sounds like a cash advance to me.
I think billpoint is actually a little different. Since it is owned by Wells Fargo bank that would make Wells Fargo the company offering us (the merchants) a merchant account. And the wordage of billpoint seems to point to those signed up with billpoint to accept credit cards as being the holders of a merchant account.
If the credit card companies do start considering paypal's services as cash advances and if I'm right about billpoint, then watch billpoint become THE way to pay with auction wins by credit cards.
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 09:34:37 AM
Amy - if you're right, expect Billpoint to increase their fees shortly after their success takes hold... (its the Ebay way of doing things.. Gosh, I'm becoming cynical).
I'll be posting the info from MBNA shortly - and will try to call and get more info if I can... Things are so busy for me right now.. only 2 days away from my wedding. 8)
|
reddeer
|
posted on May 17, 2001 10:08:07 AM
Katiyana - Congrats on your upcoming wedding!
All the best to you & yours.
|
commentary
|
posted on May 17, 2001 10:10:30 AM
katiyana
Marriage might ruin your ebay life and take away from your space for "stuff" 
|
yisgood
|
posted on May 17, 2001 10:19:26 AM
katiyana: Congratulations.
I emailed my contacts at the credit card departments of 3 major banks. This change has been in the works for a long time.
As for what is a cash advance and what is a purchase, it depends on how it was billed. If the charge on the credit card says "Paypal," then Paypal gave you a cash advance to pay the merchant. If it has your name on it, then YOU are the merchant and it was a charge. How does Billpoint work?
The payment services that are run by the banks who also run a credit card have a major advantage over the paypals and paydirects. Right now that is C2it and possibly Billpoint but expect some more before long.
I believe that Bidpay and the like won't be affected. You pay them for a money order which THEY send to the seller. If there is a problem and you manage to cancel or the MO comes back, it goes back to Bidpay and they credit your card. So you are making a purchase. With Paypal and Paydirect, you pay them for an electronic payment which YOU send to the seller. If there is a problem leading to a refund, the credit goes to YOUR paypal account where you can spend it elsewhere. So you are converting your credit limit into "cash."
http://www.ygoodman.com
[email protected]
|
amy
|
posted on May 17, 2001 10:59:51 AM
Yisgood...
Here is the answer to the question of how billpoint payments appear on the customer's credit card statement...from the billpoint site
"How does my purchase appear on my credit card / banking statement?
For credit card purchases, your credit card statement will display BPT*EBAY [Seller Name] (or BILLPNT [Seller Name] for non-eBay sales) next to the charge, where "Seller Name" is
usually the first 13 letters of the seller's eBay User ID. The seller may change the "Seller Name" to be different than the eBay User ID, but it should be the same name you see in the e-mails you receive from Billpoint and on the Order Detail page. "
This sounds different from what paypal does
Katiyana..so happy to hear of the upcoming happy event
[ edited by amy on May 17, 2001 11:00 AM ]
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 11:10:30 AM
Here is the text as it appears on the Amendments insert:
* Effective with transactions that post to your account on or after July 1, 2001, person-to-person money transfers will be included within the definition of Cash Equivalents and will be subject to the Cash Equivalents transaction fee, if any, described in your Credit Card Agreement.
* Credits to your account generated by person-to-person money transfers are not treated as payments and will not reduce your Total Minimum Payment Due.
|
lanefamily
|
posted on May 17, 2001 11:28:48 AM
My first thought would to get rid of the MBNA card. I personally do not have one (used to) and would not now (would not befor either because I used to).
There are so many credit cards out there switching is not a problem.
Like everything else consumers should voice their opinion on this and cancel their accounts.
Will it do any good, I doubt it. It did not do any good when everyone left Yahoo and it did not do anygood when we all stopped using the free AW service. Their still around. (I wish they ere not though, I like to see customers win.)
Jim
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 11:34:58 AM
Lane - my guess is what MBNA is doing will be copied by most of the other CC companies before too long - so changing would only postpone the problem, not solve it.
I am mostly a seller, so this issue wouldn't affect me directly, but it would almost DEFINITELY affect the method of payments my Buyers choose to use.. right now its 90% Paypal, 8% Billpoint, 2% Bidpay (%'s are approximations, just to give an idea that PP dominates at least between the 3 most common p2p payment systems).
<br>
" The Billpoint Service is a payment service that enables buyers to pay sellers in **person-to-person commerce transactions** without going off-line to make payment. "
Hard to see how Billpoint would be exempt based on this, which is copied directly from the Billpoint user agreement...
<copied from message thread on Ebay>
|
amy
|
posted on May 17, 2001 11:51:43 AM
Katiyana...the info from your credit card says "person-to-person money transfers"
Billpoint says to pay sellers in person-to-person commerce transactions
Billpoint is not saying it is a person-to-person money transaction, just that it is used to pay the seller (merchant)in a person-to-person commerce transaction...which I think is a very different thing.
Also...see how paypal's transaction shows on the cosumer's card statement (as a payment to [b]paypal[//b]) as opposed to billpoint's which shows up as a payment to the seller's name.
Wells Fargo is a bank which is well aware of the ins and outs of credit card regulations....they would have made SURE they would not be held liable in a chargeback situation...as opposed to paypal, which didn't seem to know their derriere from their elbow when they first started up!
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 12:09:15 PM
I'm not arguing with you Amy, I just don't know what's going to happen - I'll just sit back and see what happens come July 1st when this goes into place, and see if other CC companies follow suit. If not - I'll shift my online payments to another card without this rule.
I just hope I don't end up with many irate buyers paying their CC a ton of money for those PP transactions...
If this IS only going to affect Paypal, this could really hurt them. For my own buyer activities, I'll fund out of bank account or current fund balances.
For CC payments, I'll use Billpoint if your analysis is correct and they will be immune from this change in the rules and my other CCs follow suit in changing THEIR rules.
I guess we'll see what happens.
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 12:24:07 PM
Forwarding this info from Ebay: Response by Paypal to the MBNA announcement.
<br>http://remarq.ebay.com/ebay/transcript.asp?g=discuss%2Eebay%2Epayment%2Ebillpoint&tn=43456&sh=fcdbd6afa80e16d4&idx=-1
|
eventer
|
posted on May 17, 2001 12:33:52 PM
http://remarq.ebay.com/ebay/transcript.asp?g=discuss%2Eebay%2Epayment%2Ebillpoint&tn=43456&sh=fcdbd6afa80e16d4&idx=-1
|
amy
|
posted on May 17, 2001 01:18:43 PM
Katiyana...I didn't think you were arguing!
And I would NEVER argue with a bride just a few days short of the special day
I was just pointing out why I thought there was a difference.
I just read the thread on ebay about this and while Joanne of paypal seemed to pooh-pooh this having any effect on paypal customers I can't help but revisiting ALL the many times paypal has been less than honest with their answers on these boards!
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 01:38:38 PM
Less than 48 hours away now from the Big Event actually... 8)
Sorry if I seemed a bit testy - I'm a little stressed, can you tell???
It doesn't completely relieve my concern about the possible additional fees Buyers will be facing, but I'm going to sit back and watch carefully the ongoing discussions..
Thanks all for the happy thoughts and kind words. 8) I'm so very excited - the only down side is having to curtail my sales activities for a week.. 8)
At least I'm nice and put the info in my listings that I'll be "closed for shipment" during this time period, and will deliver following Memorial Day. I've already had one BIN that paid via Paypal ASAP - before I got notice from Ebay - he wanted to get the item purchased, paid, and shipped before I go on my honeymoon.. 8)
Gotta love deals like that.
|
capotasto
|
posted on May 17, 2001 03:56:01 PM
"The payment services that are run by the banks who also run a credit card have a major advantage over the paypals and paydirects. Right now that is C2it and possibly Billpoint ..."
C2it is not the panacea that some would have you believe. A buyer who uses a CC with c2it will still have the transaction treated EITHER as a purchase or a cash advance, DEPENDING on the rules of the issuer of his CC.
Now if you use a Citibank CC with c2it... I don't know how THEY treat will it.
With something like PP (or c2it if I sign up) I like to have my balance deposited into my chk account - I never would use that acct for purchases, yet c2it requires not only that withdrawals be permitted (at your request, of course) but PROVEN and they will make one small withdrawal to prove it (less than their two small deposits to verify the account, but that's not the point).
PP ain't perfect. From what I've seen so far, neither is c2it.
Vinnie
|
loggia
|
posted on May 17, 2001 05:05:56 PM
Reddeer, you should change your subject heading to be more specific. This is a huge issue!
My thoughts...
PayPal will sue MBNA. They almost have to. Who is in the right? I don't think the regulations have the answers anymore...
or
The Federal Trade Commission has got to wake up already and create some regulations on person-to-person payments. This is getting ridiculous.
or
Visa and MasterCard may soon step in and say what's what.
[ edited by loggia on May 17, 2001 05:19 PM ]
|
bitofagrump
|
posted on May 17, 2001 05:30:19 PM
"The Federal Trade Commission has got to wake up already and create some regulations on person-to-person payments. This is getting ridiculous."
When the gods want to punish you, they give you what you ask for...
|
nanntique
|
posted on May 17, 2001 06:24:16 PM
If my memory serves me correct, the Credit Card issuing bank in reference to this thread, has always been the ROBBER BARON of the market place. If it is the one I am thinking of, these guys give constant new meaning to the r*pe & pillage of your wallet. They are well know for coming into a state and gobbling up smaller banks and then turning user friendly account terms upside down...........
|
eventer
|
posted on May 17, 2001 06:30:21 PM
nanntique,
Are you sure about this? MBNA is one of the largest independent credit card issuers worldwide. They have a lot of "affinity" card programs as well as endorsements with lots of sports teams, specialty organizations, etc.
They are pretty highly praised & do a lot of charity & community service stuff.
You can read more about them at www.mbna.com
|
joice
|
posted on May 17, 2001 06:57:31 PM
Hello mitzee,
I had to delete your post because it is a copy and paste from another board and contained an auction I.D.
It is against the CG's to post auction I.D.'s and to copy and paste from other boards.
Perhaps Joanne from Paypal will be dropping in to the Paypal forum here and will post similar information or because it is an Ebay board, you could provide a link if you like.
Joice
[email protected]
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 17, 2001 07:21:31 PM
Joanna made a post in a thread about this topic over on Ebay - according to what they've heard, this is just a clarification of the quasi-cash policies and would NOT affect Paypal users paying for goods.... Let's hope she's right...
People have been calling the MBNA CS department and they are clueless about this.. although some of the CS reps talked to do Ebay and Paypal themselves.. 8)
|
loggia
|
posted on May 17, 2001 07:36:14 PM
She said she heard from someone who heard. That's not reliable info and she was clearly unsure about which way this would play out.
But hilariously, she said gave the (in)famous PayPal answer should MBNA make all PayPal transactions cash advances:
"Use another card."
And then she plugged the new PayPal credit card coming out in a few weeks.
[ edited by loggia on May 17, 2001 07:42 PM ]
|
loggia
|
posted on May 17, 2001 07:45:24 PM
Also, I'm not sure there is any way for MBNA to know which PayPal charges are quasi-cash and which are for goods. So I will bet my cyber-nickel on all PayPal transactions to start showing up as cash advances.
|
nanntique
|
posted on May 17, 2001 10:54:30 PM
eventer -
Maybe I've got them confused with a big bank out of NC?
|
katiyana
|
posted on May 18, 2001 01:41:57 AM
Loggia - I believe there is a field when you Send Money with Paypal where you define what kind of payment it is: Your options are Service, Goods - Auction, Goods - Non-Auction, and Quasi Cash... so that would "define" the nature of the payment, and I assume, could be coded in a different manner so the CC company could tell the difference.
|
reddeer
|
posted on May 26, 2001 07:33:58 AM
Hmmmmm, I wonder how this will affect the merge of Half.com with eBay?
|
