posted on May 23, 2001 10:26:14 PM
As a regular seller on ebay, I have had PayPal for a long time (over 9 months?). I have never had any problem whatsoever with the service, and my $$ always comes to my bank account on time when transferred without a hitch. My customers like it too--easy and fast. I rate the service AAA+. All the talk about law suits etc, is for the birds. Use it and enjoy the easiest payment service on ebay.
posted on May 23, 2001 11:16:20 PM
WHYNOT...
You are the chosen ONE...
Yes the ONE Jah has sent forth to free my bidders from
the Babylon Bondage of PAYPAL....
Thank you....
That was pure poetry
MAPLESTAR
As for my reasons not to use PAYPAL
Today I had 55 of them....
All personal checks made payable to me....
DON’T LET MONEY STARVE THE YOUNG MIND GIVE THEM THE KNOWLEDGE AND DON’T CHARGE THEM A DIME..
(PETER MORGAN)
EBAY ID
JUMPIN*JACK
[ edited by jumpinjacko on May 23, 2001 11:19 PM ]
posted on May 24, 2001 02:22:58 AM
I have no issue w/ their service or any of the others out there from Billpoint through Bidpay etc.
These services are breaking new frontiers and that takes guts, skill, imagination and I am sure many a headache.
The internet as a whole has brought on a whole new microcosm of a universe that interacts with what we DID know as "space". Life Space to be exact.
With such things as always come success, failures, new innovations and hopefully a new evolution of whatever the particular "subject matter" is. I am positive that eCommerce will evolve. There is really no choice. It either evolves or it dies. .Com stock was the rage, money or items of value that never exists always is when opportunity knocks.
eCommerce either evolves as does the technology or it quite likely will be the end of at least western civilization as we know it. People who think the markets cant close and not re-open are very wrong. People who think places such as Napster dont do damage to an economy are wrong. I'll give you a little hint. The WORST fear right now about the web is piracy hits VIDEO over the web. In other words a Napster for high speed movement of videos. The US Entertainment industry is a HUGE part of our economy. Its ALREADY in trouble. Most people dont realize that right now there are as many TV Sets in China as here in the US. FACT. Most dont realize in the next 7 years projected BY our government and various businesses (Time Warner for example) that there will be 3-5 TIMES as many TV sets in China as here in the US. Does that mean China is coming to the US of A? Only arrogance would think that. In fact the entertainment MARKET is going to shift. In fact Time Warner is commited to ALOT of money making there. Whats this have to do with paypal or eBay or ...
These companies and others are breaking new ground and I give them credit for it. I dont fault them about issues with such services, again, its NOT their fault.
The fact is bas sellers and bad buyers exist in a marketplace thats basically brand new. LOTS of laws on the books about mail order sales and retail sales and such, the web is still being swallowed and has not even reached digestion.
The problem on the internet is the same that happens when there is too much freedom. From con-artists to Cyber stalkers, cults, blatent theft its ALL out there in a "cyberspace world" that does exist so to speak yet it DOES impact the "real world of real life".
If PayPal offered merchant accounts we'd be VERY interested in signing up. That is to say the same set of rules/regulations and rights for both parties are all firm in place.
PayPal or any other third party payment service are NOT the problem. The problem is bad buyers and bad sellers. Is that paypals fault? no. Must they protect themselves from it. Indeed, who wouldnt. Everyone does, we do, Amazon does, you if your a private seller or business try to. You dont ship $400 worth of stuff w/o a signature or confirmation. Why? Well your protection and that of the buyer of course.
The problem as I have saw it is the card companies themselves need re-invent the wheel to suit credit card purchases. PayPal is a merchant. When you get your card statement does it say "Joe's Podunk Collectibles?" or PayPal?
I am sure paypal recives it share of losses as well due to the grey zones that exist. The question is simple, is it safe enough to use? Well sure it is... If it were not it wouldnt be around right now. IS there an additional RISK in using it. Certainly.
Simply look at a qualifications process. At PayPal you need a bank account they validate, email addy' contact info etc.
In getting a merchant account 2 years full financial disclosure, 2 years full tax disclosure, credit references, banking references, business papers, point of sale references, supplier references, consumer testimonials (optional), contracts requiring written signatures. A COMMITMENT to the card processor by contract. And as I said, they even come in and take photos of offices and inventories. This qualifications process exists for a reason. Go to Chase Manhatten and walk in the door and say "Howdy! I am a private citizen and I want a merchant account, I dont run a business but I have garage sales and want to take peoples credit cards". What would YOU as a bank say?
I realize there are gaps in eCommerce as a whole. There are gaps ALL OVER the web from cults right in your back yards to 45 year old guys wooing 12 year olds online. Its ALL out there. I could tell you some "real events" that'd chill you to the bone all the way to people just blatently stealing others life work cause I can get it for free!
Services such as PayPal are FORCING the initiate for a "new revolution" of commerce for America and we are going to need it as fundmentally a SHIFT in global wealth HAS started and will continue to escalate. For example Japan is buying less & less of our bonds and they basically support 1/3rd of the USA's debt. People dont like to hear that. But, fundamentally America is bankrupt and has been. So yes, I give places that have the guts such as paypal and eBay and many others alot of credit and they have my respect.
However... (always one of them) I do believe that people as a whole before they go jumping into something understand any risks and SHOULD problems occur HOW they are handled. What are their rights. This should be displayed BEFORE they ever spend a dime. Lawnmowers have warning signs all over em' for safety. Your credit card has a contract of 4-7 pages which most people never read. That gets stuffed in the envelope and eventually tossed or lost etc.
Ask your card company IF you can use the card for purchases from an entity that has not qualified to accept credit cards. Well thats easy. No. Even if you did how would they process it? They must be a merchant and qualified. Paypal is qualified and they are a merchant. They dont sell the goods however they are who is being paid. They operate on TRUST just like eBay. And I've said it a million times PayPal is trustworthy. Their service is NOT the problem. The problem IS bad buyers and bad sellers. Same problem eBay has.
Now if I sell someone something thats $200 lets say and I'm not a business. He pays through a third party service. I ship him an empty box with signature/tracking what all. His wife signs for it as he's at work. Your the consumer. What do you do? What does PayPal do? I am sure they pursue it yes. But how? Whats me part? I have been defrauded. I have rights or did I sign em' off? If I file a dispute with my bank and say, "Hey Joe Johnnie sent me an empty box! I am disputing charges!" you expect the bank to pay it back? When Joe Johnnie is not a business, has no merchant account, might have closed an account altogether and opened one at another bank. State Attorney General? That works for business not private sales. Would you expect the bank that issued the card to let you keep the card? So it can happen again?
Perhaps you did get a full box and not an empty one would be the first thought in my mind when the dispute is filed.
As a business with a merchant account you HAVE a responisbility to the cardholders BY CONTRACT and AUTHORITIES will pursue fraud. The only real recourse a private seller has to a private buyer or visa versa is court which means fee's and can result in an easy he said/she said. I shipped it, now he says he got an empty box. Maybe we ought get the postal authority in on it or UPS/FedEX as they musta stole it! Or... Gee my wife bought this $500 necklace antique what a deal! Go to get it appraised and its stolen. THAT GUY their shipped it to me! And "that guy there" turns around and says, "Uh uh... was HIS plan to try and valuate it and rip off the bank at the sametime, that why he had me pay this way". I can go on & on with circumstances.
See... Again, its not paypal's or any other of these services fault. THEY ARE VICTIMS TOO. Banks dont issue merchant accounts to criminals at least knowingly nor does paypal or any other service. But due to the true lack of a qualifications procedure and a clear bill of rights/circumstances for ALL parties alot of grey area exists for problems.
I dont know if its rants and raves but I have read many a person who says their sellers account was cut off pending investigation as they say someone passed bad cards for purchases. Can you imagine Walmarts terminals going down due to bad card processing attempts. Or Amazon gets 10 bad cards today sent to em' and ZAP no more card processing for you! Thats ridiculous. Are these messages true? No idea. I can tell you if we got 50 bad cards passed to us in day makes no difference to our merchant account. If any went through we are out the money, thats a fact. But we are also IN THE LOOP with the card processor, authorities and the banks. We are not told "We'll let you know what the investigation outcome is" and thats it. We are in the process, everything expected of us is clearly presented.
Amex and Discover are somewhat sticklers for PERFECT transactions. That means perfect address validations (AVS) and there are some fundamental contract differences between traditional Visa/MC but nothing major.
I'll say it again... The fed just announced a short time ago what they consider the safe way to buy on the web. Credit card with merchants who accept it directly. Its true this adminstration is much more sticky about the web than Clintons crew. One of the first things Bush did is do away with the whitehouse email and Intranet. I can hear it now, "Well thats just crazy!". No its not.
The web is woefully insecure, even to the point some nations have enacted web privacy laws such as Germany. Its funny in a way. You will never see someone say this is 100% secure. They'll say we "feel its 100% secure" or you are assured encryption this and that is virtually unbreakable odds are hundreds of millions to one. Well whats the gauge from WHERE those figures derive? I can say we are 100% more secure than Bibliofind was... they got broke into. Last year MILLIONS of peoples cards were stolen and the finger pointing is the net.
Another profunditity... Take Netscape or this 128 bit encryption stuff... Did you know that to encrypt something there must be code to decrypt it? Its not like genie comes out of the sky and arranges the numbers. That code is readily available to developers be they software or ISP's. Did you know that "sniffer" software exists that allows people to target ANY IP address and watch the packets flow? Nortel and such places readily use these types of utilities to diagnose problems. Its VERY expensive software. But, there are sites on the web where its for free. Pirated away.
We are a small .nothing .com business in the scheme of things but we do believe people should be able to make informed decisions in this new fangled contortion called the web.
Its rather hard to make such decisions when LOTS of places all over the net are telling you what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear.
With this third party payment type stuff there are just way too many possibilities of problems presently and while they may be few and far between in the scheme of things ONE time is more than anyone wants. I dont recall paypals statistics, less than 1% of transactions go awry? That a remarkable record. But consider the number of transactions that 1% represents?
We'd even consider using the service IF they changed it about a bit. Displaying to people what "due process of investigation is", a bill of rights for all and requiring signatures INSPECTED upon delivery. This means that the BUYER ONLY, not wife, neighbor signs for the parcel. The parcel is rapidly opened and inspected with your UPS/FED EX guy sitting there. We do this all the time with supply shipments.
PayPal did not institute the new "Chargeback" policies because there was not a problem. Requiring delivery confirmation. Does USPS postal confirmation w/o signature count? It doesnt with a merchant account. Confirmation mail means it was scanned, doesnt mean someone didnt take it from the door it was tossed in. I *JUST* went through this with FedEx home delivery. They delivered items and set them on my grill! $400 worth of stuff. In speaking to the contractor who handles our area for Fed Ex home it was an VERY interesting speak. While he apologized upside down for the guy who left the stuff on my grill he was rather worried. Why? I got my stuff. Well happens that where I bought it also happens to be one of our points of sale.
Anyhow... He told me there are people who FOLLOW US PS trucks, FedEx trucks, UPS trucks WATCHING for that drop in the door. Park the car down the street a bit, guy walks up and hauls it right out. He told me about a driver who dropped a new gateway PC in a guys porch as instructed by the guy, they phoned him via the contact info. He was at work. Got home, said no PC in his porch which they locked after delivery. He literally snuck up and SAW the empty box ON his porch that night, went in took the box, and brought it back to FedEx and filed charges.
So.... all said there are ALL types out there. We've had our share as well. No, its not paypal's fault that problems can erupt. Nor should it be their responsibility to eat the money when it does happen. Again, no axe to grind here with them or any others. 90% of all of our eBay payments are by credit card nor do we get many paypal requests. The facts are however that bad sellers/bad buyers are out there and its better safe than sorry.
I've asked PPDamon several times to respond to some fundamental questions. I made a list, my top 10 concerns. We called PP direct requesting responses when they first deployed and got a dial tone after a nice talk with a rep. no questions answered. The only question we got a response to was "how can they operate" as we, walmart, buy.com, gateway, even my bank wont perform charges for things they dont own/sell. Gateway CANT perform our charges nor we theirs. I got a single line response "We are the merchant" and thats all they needed to say, we were under the impression they were a card processor.
The other questions I got a "please email me for responses" to which I said, why not just post them for everyone to see as all the people want to know the answers, it concerns them, especially more than us since we dont use the service but would like to. The others do use the service and wanted to know. No answers.
So ask this of a third party service, dont care whos. I bid, I won, I paid via the service. I got a box full of wood chips with confirmation delivery and signature. The seller is not responding at all, phone number given the site was bogus.
Odds of someone WITH a merchant account pulling that are VERY VERY slim. Its happened or similar things. In part its the reason card companies are looking at new ways to do this. The one that seems most popular requires the buyer go DIRECT to a card processors payment gateway. They pay. A "code" is sent to the merchant. That is basically a redemption code to move the funds. This is popular in preventing credit cards from getting stolen by what are called secure servers. All types of them, some damned secure like what online banks use and some is just disk space on a web server. Our's is completely different. Our secure server has ZERO web connection, it cant BE surfed as it used a completely different protocol than the front end web secure server. The moment your card is entered, whap it goes to a machine with no physical or logical web connection and instantly printed then deleted from the server. Never have had a breach, not once. Secure "disk space" on a web server is protected by program code, it can be defeated as it CAN be accessed.
So how do we get all this wonderful info? Some is experience the rest are connections and phones. We sell at some of the top branded sites on the net via consignment terms. My gal worked 11 years for our states racing & wagering board. One of my best pals is a nortel network security engineer. I worked for a collections bureau for sometime as well. What we dont know we seek the information out on the tele.
Card processors and banks are more than happy to field questions. They want to make sure your safe too as its their services and in the case of credit their money at stake.
One of the biggest problems on the net right now is consumers getting INFORMED. They think all the web is safe its not. We have high speed cable modems for example. Since day one we put them in our firewall blocks 10-25 people everyday just scanning over ranges of IP addresses looking for in's. Nothing they can get, I am a little brighter than that even if they were to defeat it.
Email, woefully insecure.
The BEST advice I could give to buyers or sellers for that matter is SEEK TO BE SAFE. If your NOT certain then seek answers. No other person out there will do it for you and as is usual in life, everything is wonderful until all of a sudden you find its not.
"I am so happy with my new PC I bought and everything went smooth via Zingo's payments thingie! I got good feedback!".... Three months later..... "My PC sux, it worked good for a week and has broken down twice and my friend who knows about these things said I got ripped off bigtime! I am so pissed!". With us... you could file a chargeback, complain to the FTC, State Attorney General, BBB and GET action... maybe not, but you can TRY. You have some avenues and RECORDS are KEPT REGARDLESS. It wont take more than a margin of them to a cardprocessor before flares go up and no we cant just go to another processor and say "take us". They wont. The records go with Visa/MC/Discover/AMEX.
Its ALWAYS been our opinion that paypal ought require MUCH more info and a much stricter requirement for all users. But thats their business, not ours, I respect what they are doing and them breaching totally new avenues of commerce. Its not their fault bad buyers/sellers exist. It is our choice to use or not use it. We choose the same as Dell, Barnes & Noble, Gateway etc. as we are "in the loop" and we are ensuring our customers rights by contract. If we dont, then we are going to have banks, authorities, consumers, bureaus crashing down all around us to snuff us out and pay the piper.
At the sametime as noted before, legitimacy. One of the BEST things we ever did in growing our business was sign with a reputable card processor. Its opened up points of sale to us the avg. eBay business never would dream of with sales 4x that of eBay. And those connections open other connections. Thats important. Having all ones eggs in one basket is a formula for disaster.
The majority of eBay buyers and sellers are good honest folks which is WHY there are not GOBS & GOBS & GOBS of problems for any of the third party payment services.
But its always best to be safe. Call your bank and ask them, "Is it ok for me to use my credit card to pay a merchant for goods by paying another party completely" most banks say no. "You pay who you do business with".
You pay paypal, they pay the seller and hopefully the seller does the right thing.
"If I do pay by a third party and I get an empty box w/ confirmation/signature will my cardholders bank force the chargeback or am I basically out of luck because the seller did not process my card, has no merchant account, never qualified for one. Or even finding the merchant once did have one and lost it and now uses Joes third party payment service.
posted on May 24, 2001 05:00:12 AM
"To attain a REAL merchant account it requires a qualifications process thats quite ridgid and requires disclosure of credit, taxes, finances, points of sale and more. Even pictures of offices and inventories. PP nullifies this entire process ..."
Exactly. And getting a merchant account can be expensive, too (start-up fees etc). Which is why sellers prefer paypal.
I use it both as buyer and seller and it's a super-convenient service.
posted on May 24, 2001 06:10:36 AM
Oh yeah, it's a "super convenient" service....until something goes wrong!
For the same reason you want to see what someone's negs were for (on a user with tons of positives), you want to know what to expect when things DON'T go as planned.
posted on May 24, 2001 08:08:45 AM
whynot, I'll say this again.
A buyer is SAFER using a credit card with paypal than when using a credit card directly. Paypal adds buyer protection in addition to that provided by the credit card bank. That's a fact you seem to overlook.
A seller is SAFER accepting credit card payment through PayPal than through a merchant account. Merchant accounts have little or no "seller protection" involving online transactions, PayPal offers complete protection to sellers who follow the rules. That's a fact you seem to overlook.
From the perspective of either a buyer or seller, NOTHING is worse regarding credit card transactions.
It seems clear that you oppose the changes which PayPal is forcing in the online payment industry, and you are entitled to argue your opinion, but hinting that there might be some problem using credit cards through PayPal is totally bogus.
If someone were to perpetuate credit card in person, and KNOW Master Card regulations, they are not worried about being asked for additional ID.
It is AGAINST Mastercard regulations. The merchant cannot require additional identification as a standard business practice when you use MasterCard for payment.
posted on May 24, 2001 04:00:13 PM
Welcome to AW, Maple!
Just as a heads up, it is incredibly rude to ask a question and then insult those who have taken their time to explain.
Learn the art of appreciation.
Perhaps you'd like to clue us in as to why you started this thread since you clearly don't want others opinions and have one of your own:
Oh yeah, it's a "super convenient" service....until something goes wrong!
unless that was just more arrogance targeted at another helpful poster?
posted on May 24, 2001 09:14:03 PMBuh-Bye Maple
Good thread, bad originator!
I've used PayPal for over 1000 transactions, not a problem yet!
(probably because your collective posts/issues give me so much insight!)
I haven't had a chargeback & I feel the fee is fair. I like PP!
Maybe I've got rose colored glasses on still?
posted on May 24, 2001 11:32:58 PM
maplestar: I type rather rapid. About 110 WPM when I "get into it". I have authored many an article for various places from Wired News through podunk operations I am sorta use to just zippin' along until done.
Capotasto:
Sure a merchant account costs money to set up. It cost us about $550 and the cost of softare to process. This is tax deductible as a business expense just as are eBays fee's, paypal's what all. Money in the pocket is always better than deductions. It also lends to one's credibility. We can and have approached some of the best points of sale on the net from the home shopping net people to C/Net, TIger Direct, countless others. The results usually favorable. For the private seller any third party service is a wonderful convenience.
roofguy:
Exactly what "more" protection is added to the buyer? Explain it please, examples might be nice. Not just a statement. As to added protection TO a card thats incorrect as most banks will not honor a dispute when the merchandise SELLER was NOT paid by the card. If they did well we can all hand our cards to anyone and make charges, fraud would be rampant and banks bankrupt. When PP deployed and we looked into using it we asked PP questions. We got zero answers. So we called banks. Not a single national bank we spoke with said sure, we will honor a dispute. Not one. In fact one surprised me and said, "We dont offer merchant accounts to garage sales and any cardholder paying for goods to unqualified merchants will wish they never had our bankcard".
Perhaps some are more favorable to it now than then, of that I have no clue.
For a seller its safer? Well probably so if not for the sheer fact that the seller is not accepting the card so cant be held responsible for much of anything in reality.
I'd imagine these various services operate on their accounts much the same as banks do. If $xx of your total charges results in chargeback your daed.
First off, there is no such thing as safe buying. You can buy a new tire it blows out you bring it back, they say beans to you.
If they are a business you can file complaints to various entities. If you can prove some form of illegality the law will be involved so should you choose.
With private sales that goes a whole different route. Remember the peoples court?
If you think for a moment a bank is going to eat chargebacks because I bought a Sweedish Yodel from eBay seller BillYodel (a private seller) or even in person and instead of a Yodel I got a noodle your wrong. First, Bill didnt charge my card so I never really can prove anything about Bill. Secondly the bank never qualified Bill to accept my card or the banks money through use of the card.
This is WHY cash advances exist on cards. You can go in, get money against the card balance and go pay Bill for his Yodel. The bank doesnt guarentee when you get in your car, you drop the $250. They wont go... Oh by the way, thats a shame... Here. Have $300 instead, we like you! Nor will they in seeing my noodle or yodel for that matter say, gee, thats a noodle yodel you got ripped off, here's your money back. Cash advances offer no guarentee at all on what you buy.
Why is this? Because you might be dealing with a non-business buying some used tires.
They DO guarentee your purchase IF you are paying an authorized merchant. These payment services ARE authorized merchants. Not banks, not card processors, merchants just like the gas station is.
They operate as the terms of service agreed to removes the liability of goods exchange. There I said it. And thats not their fault as I noted before. Heck, if they took on the liability of goods exchange they'd be murdered in fraud more than likely.
But those grey areas are pretty grey. Much too grey for a Barnes & Noble, a Buy.com, A Gateway or Microsoft to use.
ANY measures ANY service can make towards fraud prevention is good. "Oh its NOT that bad out there...". Please.
Here I'll quote the story right here at wonderful AW.
-----
Conducted by the Internet Fraud Complaint Center (IFCC), the "Internet Auction Fraud Report" also concluded that online auction-related fraud accounts for 64 percent of all Internet fraud. Moreover, 80 percent of the online auction fraud victims said that money orders or personal checks were used as their payment method.
-----
64 percent and thats down from last years figures as I recall. Of course third party payment services are safer than checks or money orders. At least the merchant third party payment service will pursue or try to deal with fraud. Checks and money orders have always been the easiest way to not deliver goods. Long before the web existed. Second to that WAS paying by card to one person when in reality the goods were bought by someone else completely. Usually in immense scale as they could only do it once "per business name/entity".
The fact that the fed states that the lions share of fraud happens at auctions is rather interesting in itself. Exactly how many really viable numbers of these sites exist and have any sales on them these days? 5-10? from what was hundreds and hundreds.
There are basically 4 viable ones left. eBay atop the hill right from word go. This is due to the absolute professionalism of eBay staff and administration. Some people get all bent out of shape at eBay when they make changes, the reality is if youve sold elsewhere, and we do at alot of business to consumer and done our share of person to person eBay staff is leaps and bounds ahead the rest. Its why Amazon failed, fairmarket failed, Yahoo failed... same reason, different actions. Had eBay done any of those three sites ventures they'd bloom BIG. REAL BIG.
Atop the Business to consumer auctions, uBid, the unchalleged leader by leaps and bounds.
Business to consumer auctions dont just let any wannabe seller in the main gate. Some have spurted off some person to person trials that go noplace basically. Its almost like its more a way for buyers to say I auction too! even if they never get a bid. I've only saw one succeed and that was The Onsale Exchange from the former Onsale Auctions. This is actually where Yahoo auctions came from. Onsale dumped the site. Why! Fraud.
We sold within Onsales B2B and P2P venue. Was marvy! Bookoo bucks and sales.
A B2C auction consigns goods by terms of contract. REAL contract. So you bid, you win, the moment your card charge is approved by the sites processing folks (MERCHANT) the contract kicks into place and the supplier (VENDOR) has now transferred OWNERSHIP of the merchandise to the site (MERCHANT). THis is a closed loop, the site made the sale, the site charged the consumers card, the goods are owned by the site (Business). The site might perform fulfillment itself or the VENDOR might drop ship for them. Then 3 weeks or so later the check arrives in the mail and the vendor is paid. Everyones rights are left intact. Seller/Consumer/Vendor. Should the goods be bad and you complain the site usually issues a replacement upon return of the goods. You can return goods. With ANY business you CAN return goods. Private seller? Some businesses?... Hmmm...
You can perform a chargeback and your bank will do its thing. Chargebacks are not just "oh well... guess thats a looser". You state youve had 1 chargeback via pp. Thats good. Try selling PC's something high ticket or highly collectibles and watch the numbers soar.
Again, the federal government has said cards are the way to buy. They also stated this is the case when paying the MERCHANT direct. If you took a look at say uBids issues of fraud vs the largest P2P site or even Yoohoo auctions there is a HUGE difference. At uBid, basically non-existent, very very few and very very far between. Its a more controlled environment and a closed loop in the actual transaction.
But to sit here and tell me if I buy 4 used tires at eBay, I pay via PP, I got 4 rotten tires that I can go to my bank and issue a chargeback and win your simply wrong. If you think when I complain about it the seller who KNOWS what he sold me and shipped is going to "Yes... thats right... I sold him 4 rotted tires that were supposed to be new" your wrong. He'll say, I shipped him 4 tires that were perfect, now he's stiffin me, maybe he is.
What I am asking is HOW is that dispute handled. When WE get a person making such claims WE are in the loops. You said cardprocessors do less than PP. I dont know what PP does, they wont tell us, from the complaints you see in various forums they dont seem to tell anyone and thats why those people get so upset I presume. We have two card processors and both have been absolutely wonderful in protecting our interests and they work WITH us or we with them. Several poor slobs out there who's butts been nailed to the wall via our processors and we know whats going on! We are kept informed, we can call 24 hours a day and someone is there to help us no matter WHAT the question or problem and we dont twiddle our thumbs for two weeks wondering whats going on.
We have had all types of various interesting experiences.
But roofguy, when you say its seller safer than a merchant account or buyer safer than a merchant account please qualify your statements. Just saying it doesnt make it so.
Certainly paypal tries to prevent fraud, probably one of the #1 tasks they have and I feel for em' as its not their fault and certainly they are injured by it. The companies founders and president deserve alot of respect and admiration. I have that for them. They are breaking new ground and as usual when breaking new ground there are problems and its often not glamorous or glorious. The service is absolutely AMAZINGLY safe given the numbers of transactions vs problems I have read.
There are people here yellin' and at other places. I am also sure this is a minority of people who are speaking up. If 68% of all web fraud is die to auctions what percentage of that are in person to person auctions. What percentage of that figure goes through 3rd party payment services? What percentage of fraud goes unreported completely? I bet its fairly significant, perhaps they factored a best estimate in. And of those that happened via 3rd party how many show up at a forums site like AW? A much smaller minority again of that I am sure. People who go to these places tend to be "into the scene" not the avg eBay'r.
All interesting questions.
I have lots of interesting questions.
I dont know what PP's figures are, I know its been published. If say they do a million transactions a week. Its probably more. say less than 1% are problems. Lets go with less than half that (.5%) and half that, (.25%).
thats 2,500. uBid would not see 2,500 problem with chargebacks in a year (est). We've had three against lord knows how many transactions over the years. Its not the people dont try, its that our card processor and bank as well as us are activated. While they do their thing investigating we are free to do ours in conjunction, get the facts and thats as they say is that. Our "account" is NOT shut down we are not left dangling in the wind for weeks on end awaiting? what? A investigation where what is being investigated, how, who? when where why? is kept from us.
I've saw many people who state (true or not I dont know) that someone passes a hokey transaction through a third party service and then their sellers account is locked pending investigation. Stuff like bad cards, claims of non-reciept of goods etc. Not the way our merchant account works. They lock us, cost us revenues and we for whatever the case may be are vindicated then we are perfectly withion our rights to go... hold on a minute here... you impacted our revenues and we have rights. Again, this is another reason that libel gets signed off on I presume.
Now lets say we did use it. And some shmoo passes us 10 bad cards and our account is locked. We even have backup as we have not one, but two merchant accounts. One domestic, one both domestic/international including Discover/Amex accounts.
How are we supposed to go to buyers who want to use the 3rd party payment service and go... "Ummm you cant pay via that service because our account is locked out." As a consumer I'd ask why? "Someone passed me bad cards so they are investigating it"... Hmmm.... ok... Let me get this straight. You get passed a bad card and they lock your account?????? ?? ? Huh? ? I'd be thinking YEAH RIGHT... More likely that someones been ripped off and I'll do my present and future shopping clear of you.
Or.... it happens and you say, "Oh they are working on my account" and lie.
Amazon gets passed bad cards too and gets hit with fraud by people truly ripping em' off. You dont see them not accepting cards do you?
Or Walmart? Staples? Even gas stations?
I think what PayPal and others is doing is wonderful! We'd LOVE to be a part of it! But until I can get some fundamental answers to fundamental questions which I have posed more than a few times we, just like buy.com, dell, gateway, mario's restuarant and joes gaseteria are concerned by not only our additional risks but those of our customers as without them we are nothing.
Buyers come first in our book. Dont care why. We've had people who bid $30 at eBay and found the same thing at another site for half of what they bid. We started it at $1. He wanted us to sell it for half what he bid and said since we defrauded him cause he bid too high and we didnt tell him he could get it for $15 at this other site we never even heard of he'd call our state AG, file this file that, chargebacks (yes he did this AFTER he already paid us and it shipped)... Whatcha gonna do? Give it to him and let em' know we reserve the right to do business in the future.
There's another real oddity that I never noted but an attorney friend did about P2P web sales in general. A business can reserve the right to do business if they have reasonable cause. Other than that they cant refuse the sale in actuality if the buyer wishes to consumate it. They can set terms of sale as a constant for all buyers.
However, a private seller, say one thats a WW 2 veteran, running a garage sale or in a flae market can actually refuse to do business with someone for any number of reasons. IN fact in case of a garage sale this WW 2 vet might say, hey, I wont sell my WW 2 medals to that former German Soldier. Also some intersting stuff to postulate in the big scheme of things.
I'll digress and stop there to save AW's hard disk space
I'd LOVE to actually write for AW!
We actually have most sales down to a science. At eBay for example our payout is and has been for nearly 5 years a steady 95% where eBay stated avg. payout is 68%, a significant difference. We vend via B2C venues as well.
In closing I'd like to say I'd love to try paypal. But the thought of altering all of our ad's, and reposting eeeps... LOTS of ad's only to find that we get targeted by those who abuse the service and then due to one of those abuses or ten? have our account shut off, followed by having to remove all of it and repost again makes me faint.... (ooo!). With our card processors, they dont REACT to our account in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM until the facts are all in. Not whap here today and tomorrow no more card payments. We get our say too. And that in itself, those few items in STABILITY of a business and CONTROL of business is WELL worth the "stratup expense" of a merchant account. Processing itself, ours is cheaper. We pay 2.35% and a .25 batch closure fee at the end of a "batch" be that batch 1 card or 1000 cards. AVS can result in smaller additional fee's but we are talking best case a buck, its not really a problem for us.
I have the utmost respect for paypal and what they do and the guts it takes to do what they have done. But I do have questions and they have always went unanswered and since this business puts food in peoples mouths and roofs over their childrens heads the risk in not knowing "due process" is too high.
I'll digress and stop there to save AW's hard disk space
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on May 25, 2001 06:15:17 AM
I've had a recent experience with a buyers using a stolen credit card to pay for an auction. And my account was not frozen. I was able to continue transferring money out to my bank account. The worst thing that came of this is that the money was deducted from my account and, of course, I was out the merchandise. My first rip-off in more than 700 sales.
And you know how much the auction total was? $12.75. That's right. Not even a measly 20 bucks or so.
So the con artists don't necessarily always target the big-ticket items.
So, at this point, I really can't complain about PayPal.
As a buyer, surely it's safer to have ALL of one's credit card protection in place, PLUS PayPal's protection, which can and does resolve disputes before they even reach to the credit card bank. Two lines of defense are better than one.
As a seller, the difference is profound. Merchant accounts have NO chargeback protection for online transactions. None. PayPal seller's accounts have COMPLETE protection for sellers who follow the rules.
as to:
any cardholder paying for goods to unqualified merchants will wish they never had our bankcard
This is completely bogus. Buyers are not expected to determine the qualifications of a credit card merchant. VISA/MC/Amex and merchant banks do that. What you might have been told is that cardholders who dispute too many charges will be dumped. There are various reasons why some cardholders end up with high chargeback rates, and all of those reasons reflect badly upon the cardholder.
That's wonderful that you can type 110 wpm, but what baring does that have on common courtesy and consideration for other users?
Whynot do what has been suggested, and be a little bit more to the point with a little less verbosity. Diarrhea of the mouth (or pen) may work in a long form article, but it definitely DOES NOT work on a message board. It's just rude.
Indulging yourself at the expense of others is not a virtue.
[ edited by stingray777 on May 25, 2001 12:10 PM ]
posted on May 25, 2001 12:57:55 PM[The first thing authorities will be asking is WHY your selling things accepting payment (if you are a business) via a third party instead of getting a merchant account thus legitimizing your business.
A merchant does not legitimize your business. It means you can process credit card that is it. They are pretty easy to get. Nearly every escort service (and we all know how legitimate they are) accept them. Plenty of online and offline businesses that have accepted credit cards have scammed or defrauded consumers.
For buyers its VERY simple... Can you walk into your bank that issued your debit or credit card and have them perform a charge to send the money to say me? The answer is NO, they WONT do it. They WILL do a wire transfer, they WONT charge a credit/debit card and transfer funds via card processing.
You can use your credit or debit card to transfer money via Western Union to anyone in the world. That person does not need a bank account. They don't even need an id to pick up the money. Just a secret password. Sounds a lot like paypal.
You will NOT see Barnes & Noble, Gateway, Dell, Egghead.com or ANY branded name business on the web using the services as they know exactly what we do.
Maybe they don't use paypal, because their merchant account rates are much cheaper than paypal. With the volume those guys do, they don't need anyone to process their cards. It is also pretty hard to keep things streamlined when you throw paypal into the mix.
A major company informed me that they were considering taking paypal payments from their wholesale customers, due to numerous requests. They said that they were investigating the pro's and con's. They also wanted to see if paypal would do a lower rate.
...She took the next logical step to get her $300+ back and filed a dispute with her bank. Her bank 2 weeks after issued certified mail to her citing breach of cardholders contract and fining her $500. They called in her full $4500 balance due and noted all three major credit reports with breach of contract
Please elaborate on what part of the cardholders contract was breached. I have called 2 friends that hold executive positions in the credit card industry and the president of a bank that issues credit cards. They all need more info since they say they have never heard of anything like what you are describing.
They also said that they have NEVER heard of a cardholder being fined any amount of money besides late fees and overlimit fees. They said that fines in the range of $500 are usually issued by mastercard or visa against merchants that have violated their processing contracts.
All of them also mentioned that there is no way to put breech of contract on anyone's credit report, unless they are sued and a final judgement is issued against them.
The companies can call in the full balance at any time and if she pays it by the specified date all they can list is "account closed" $0 balance. Closed by issuer. If she always paid on time there will be nothing negative in the report.
Have you EVER saw eBay recommend using PP? Ever?
Why would they? They own billpoint. I have never seen Visa recommend using Mastercard.
To attain a REAL merchant account it requires a qualifications process thats quite ridgid and requires disclosure of credit, taxes, finances, points of sale and more. Even pictures of offices and inventories.
We have never had to disclose one iota of tax information to get a merchant account for our retail stores or our online stores. I don't even know why they bother running a credit check since people with rotten credit and bankruptcies can get a merchant account.
It is pretty easy to take photos of merchandise that you don't own. That is why so many merchants are able to commit fraud using merchant accounts. Here in Florida one cocaine dealer was accepting ALL major credit cards for drugs. He set up a bank account and everything. Took pictures of his "storefont" and sent in his application and got a merchant account.
posted on May 25, 2001 02:49:56 PM
Just an attempt to clarify things:
For buyers:
Before I got my merchant account, and at least a year before Paypal came along, I tried to make a deal with a school that accepts credit cards. They pay under 2%. So I offered them 5% to charge my customers' credit cards. They told me that it was illegal for them to do so. The agreement of the merchant account states that they can not make a charge for a third party.
When Paypal first started, there were a few posts from buyers who tried to charge back their purchases and were told that their agreement with the credit card company specifically states that they can only use their card directly with the merchant offering the merchandise. Any attempt to pay a third party is in breach of contract. The buyer will lose their protection and even be fined. Since Paypal's success, I believe that most credit cards no longer adhere to this rule, but some still might. I also know personally of someone who used paypal, never received any merchandise and was told that he could not charge it back because the charge was not directly to the merchant. This did happen months ago. But if you look at the small print that comes with your credit card, I believe most of you will find that this rule is still there.
In my research, I have spoken to officers in the credit card and fraud department of three major banks. They told me that when you are being charged by paypal for a payment going to someone else, it should be classified as quasi-cash because paypal is in effect giving you electronic cash to send the merchant. It would be the same as using your credit card to send a Western Union payment. If the merchant cheats you, you can NOT charge it back. For some reason, many customers are finding that they are able to charge back paypal payments, but some are finding that they can't. So in this regard, paypal is less safe than using your credit card directly.
Paypal's "protection"
For buyers:
When you do a charge back through Paypal, you must first try to get reimbursed from ebay. This is generally about as easy as drinking the Atlantic Ocean. Only after ebay agrees you were defrauded can you ask paypal for the balance. And Paypal will only give it to you if you meet two conditions. 1) the seller did not follow their rules. If the seller sent you an empty box and can show proof of delivery, Paypal can deny your claim. 2) Paypal can collect from the seller. If the seller closes his PP account, you're out of luck. When you use your credit card directly and get cheated, you can make a charge back. It doesnt matter how much money the seller has in his "visa/mc/amex" account. If your credit card agrees, you get reimbursed.
For sellers:
Often Paypal snaps into action and freezes funds in the seller's account based entirely on the buyer's unsubstantiated complaint. It doesn't make a difference if the seller has over 500 positives and no negatives. And it doesn't make a difference if the buyer paid with CC, bank account or PP balance. Three charge back attempts were made against me with my merchant account and I won every one. At no time were funds ever frozen in my account.
When you get paid directly with a CC, it is YOUR decision whether or not to accept the card. You have all the information you need. With PP, if the buyer was paid by a third party using a stolen CC and uses those funds to pay you, even if you shipped to the correct address, PP may decide to restrict your account and take the funds out of your account due to "suspicion of fraud." Again, this is rare. But it won't happen with a merchant account.
But the underlying fact is when you use a CC directly, as buyer or seller, there is usually a toll-free number that gets answered almost 24 hours a day. I have never had a problem contacting my merchant bank. I have never sent a letter and not gotten a response. I have always been told the policy in clear terms.
But we have all heard hundreds of stories of buyers and sellers who called, faxed and emailed Paypal repeatedly and got nowhere. The BBB, Wall St Journal, Bankrate Magazine, Salon Magazine and others all gave them poor reviews for their lack of customer service. Folks have reported calling Paypal several times with the same question and being given different answers.
So Paypal's famous protection gets a mixed review. In some ways it's better and in some ways it's worse. But you can't state with certainty that you will win or lose in any situation because the CS people make up the rules as they go along and rarely notify you of what is happening.
posted on May 25, 2001 05:35:35 PM
Paypal is getting away with it the same as firecash, ccnow, instabill and many other online processors, because of a loophole.
This is from CCNow's website:
CCNowis an online retailer of our clients' products. Our focus is on selling tangible merchandise that will be shipped to customers. Clients who use our service agree that when a customer places an order, CCNow buys the ordered product(s) from our client for immediate resale to the customer. CCNow then E-mails a purchase order to the client, who will ship the merchandise directly to the customer. The customer is billed by our company as "CCNow".
The reason nothing is happening to these "3rd party processors" is the they are using the same reasoning as CCNow. Mastercard and Visa find that totally acceptable. Amex and Discover are a little more sceptical.
It is illegal to process credit cards for someone else. In fact it opens you up to charges of money laundering, but that is another thread.
It is not an easy process to be able to issue debit cards with the mastercard or visa logo. Mastercard in letting paypal do this has made them seem a little more trustworty. I think it has made consumers feel more secure in dealing with paypal.
posted on May 25, 2001 06:14:53 PM
So yisgood trots out his collection of old news.
Yes, there was a time when PayPal was overwhelmed by fraud attempts, and developed a hair trigger regarding locking up accounts. That time is passed, long passed.
Yisgood seems desperate for its return. Three times lately yisgood has grasped at sellers claiming to have been treated capriciously. Three times yisgood has been burned by sellers who turned out to be hiding a crucial part of the story. Three times kicked where it hurts, but yisgood is back for more. Why, yisgood?
One is reminded of a poster named "Claire", who published during the period after the gulf war when the oil wells were on fire, a prolific internet publication named "Blazing Tattles". Basically, Claire claimed that the oil well fires could not be put out, and via environmental pollution would eventually lead to the end of civilization as we know it.
While the fires were being put out, Claire faded away. One imagines how it might have been if she had stayed, seizing every story of a fire as proof that the "bad old days" were still with us.
Your highly incorrect. I happen to have been burned on a personal transaction where I used my card for a western union transfer for $400 worth of merchandise. Oh he got the money allright. When I went to the bank and filed a dispute I was informed that its the same as a cash advance basically and M/C told me same.
If your going to make statements it'd be nice if you made a call first so you dont look stupid. Just my opinion, others may get better or worse mileage.
I took the liberty since I was at the bank today and also had to make some calls of asking em'. Webcard which is Providian, a sizeable entity informed me most banks are becoming more open to eCommerce and a new standard that is coming into place, apparently that has caused alot of the 3rd party merchant transfer services to worry. He stated several purportedly were seeking buyers in fact. He told me flat out that card contracts are between the issuing bank and the cardholder, no other unauthorized external parties may make any determinations against their cardholders contacts w/o breaching their contract and its exculsive. He continued and stated that in "reality" what it is are the services bare no responsibility in goods transfer be they hard goods, services or merchantability of items etc. In having a cardholder sign of on libel the full burden falls upon the cardholder as the actual vendor of goods is not under Mastercard/Visa contract or bank contract. They are under contract with the 3rd party merchant. The cardholder is under contract with the cardholders bank. Further, several third party service he continued try to get exclusive rights in contract to arbitrate dispute thus nullifying their statements of being responsible for any libelous circumstance as they arbitrate all circumstances that arise which the consumer has agreed to in contract.
Chase I spoke with quite briefly and gave them my tire scenario. I won 4 new tires, I was sent 4 rotten tires. I paid using a third party merchant. They told me it would fall under a cash advance and they will not initiate invetigations when the party being paid is not a qualified merchant and is not the actual business merchandiser. The bank may or may not pursue legal/contract isses with the cardholder dependant upon the amount of money in question given a credit card, not debit card which is an extension of a checking account. Debit cards affored less protection when used on the internet as the PIN number is what validates the true consumer where as retail can garner a signature. The PIN number allows qualified access to the cardholders checking account just as when used with an Automatic Teller Machine (ATM).
As to card processing fee's, No Amazon does not get a break or anyone else. One of our processors is the same as Amazon's and they get the exact same rate we do. They also happen to be the largest card processor on the globe w/ 68% of all merchant accounts.
I spoke with them briefly as well. They stated a new stadard will be coming into place shortly and it is unfavorable to third party transactions processors and instead will be shifting the majority of eTransactions directly through established card processor gateways. All such transactions will require tracking information for parcels be supplied to the purchaser within 48 hours and signature confirmations. Both buyers and merchants/private sellers will pay fee's.
He said we'd be informed of the various details after its all finalized and implemented and that its a measure being brought on by state and federal governments more so than banks/card processors. I was told that limiters will be in place so in order to take a $50 payment you will have to have at least a balance of that maintained in the account.
He said there are basically 3 points being targeted.
1. Fraud reduction/Consumer Protection
A. Pursuing sales of goods illegal for resale so authorites can rapidly detect, locate and arrest perpetraitors.
B. Assurance that goods shipped are recieved and in stated conditions and meeting warrants of merchantability before money is released.
2. States pursuit of sales tax for any resellers intentionally purchasing merchandise for resale for profit.
3. Tax reporting of undisclosed incomes.
In any event, Shop4Shoes has it on the money.
Essentially its the same as handing someone on the street some money and saying go give it to that guy over there. Anything else you agree he arbitrate and abide by his decision.
posted on May 25, 2001 09:52:27 PM
whynot makes some interesting points I haven't heard before. (also, I am blown away by 110 wpm typing speed. Dang! You go! Wish I had those numbers!)
I am not disputing anything he is saying but I would like to point out to him (whynot) that for some of us a merchant account isn't practical or even possible. Many people don't do nearly enough volume to justify all that paperwork (I have set up merchant accounts for my former employer so I do know it is a lot of paperwork, verifications, etc.)---of course it is not too much for someone in business for the long haul but MUCH too much for a mom selling kids' outgrown clothes or for a seller like me, who may sell $500 worth of stuff one month and nothing the next due to being too busy at my 'real' job.
So for the small seller you have two options: accept the risks and accept cards through some kind of third party service like Paypal, Billpoint and similar services or don't take cards at all. Some people do fine not taking cards but for me, my business would suffer. Approx. 2/3 of my customers ask to pay by Paypal even when I do not list it. Paypal and other 3rd party credit card acceptors may not be perfect but they make it possible for me to offer my customers a choice---at an increased risk for me, yes, but I want to be able to make that choice myself and decide on the level of risk I want to take, myself.
Also, your postings overlook the common situations of sellers who have poor credit. Tightening up on regulations would be a disaster for many people who are successfully selling on Ebay after having credit problems in the past. I'm a perfect example. Even if I wanted to, I could never get a merchant account. My credit report would immediately disqualify me as a bad risk. Yet I'm a great seller (apologies if that sounds like I'm tooting my own horn)with glowing feedback and a long history of customer service and repeat business. There are tons and tons of people out there like me who have bad credit due to events beyond our control (in my case catastrophic illness and subsequent unemployment) and I don't want myself or them to be cut off from using Paypal or Ebay in some kind of attempt to crack down on 'bad sellers'.
Thank goodness Ebay doesn't require credit checks, or I would never have been able to rebuild my credit slowly with my successful Ebay income. Thank goodness Paypal *doesn't* require credit checks---or I'd be locked out of them just like I am all kinds of other stuff. I sincerely hope they have no intention of following your recommendations even though it might lasso a few 'bad guys'. This is one area in which I take issue with your posts, even though clearly you do have lots of wisdom and experience & I learned a lot from your info.
posted on May 25, 2001 10:04:59 PM
I am not a big time seller and I love PayPal. I have had no trouble, I have an account where I cannot have over $100.00 so when the amount gets close I receive an email from PayPal informing me of that and I immediately send it to my bank. With PayPal I have had auctions end, item sent and received by buyer in 3 days. I love it that I can get the item out and buyer is happy at the immediate shipping and receiving.
posted on May 25, 2001 10:27:27 PM
I didn't realize that this thread was two pages long so I took time to read the posts and I decided when I read them that most people on this board see the glass has half full when we should see the glass as half empty. (I hope I said that right, more better is optimism and pessimism) I prefer the first, optimism, as everyone should and if a question is asked maybe it should read like. Give me 10 good reasons why you like PayPal and after the 10 reasons I am sure that it will state some reasons why they don't. I enjoy reading these threads and get a lot of good ideas from them, like joining PayPal. It took me a long time to join but in this world of spinning time it is so much easier to use your Favorites click to PayPal and pay. Takes no time at all. The Seller spends more time by packing, and going to the post office only to stand in line for 1/2 hour, but the convenience to my buyer is what I want and do and it has given me, I think, many more sales.
posted on May 25, 2001 10:56:01 PMAs to card processing fee's, No Amazon does not get a break or anyone else. One of our processors is the same as Amazon's and they get the exact same rate we do. They also happen to be the largest card processor on the globe w/ 68% of all merchant accounts.
That is very odd. Not that they have the same rate, but that they would process with someone that does not base rates on volume. One of my merchant accounts pays a lower percentage fee than another. The account with the higher volume pays less of a percentage. Yes, businesses do get breaks according to volume. The post office is one of them.
Two stores on my block use the same processor as me. One store pays 1.45% retail. I pay 1.5% and the other store pays 1.59%. We all got our accounts within weeks of each other. Our rates are based on volume. The rates are reviwed evey 6 months and if Our volume has increased over a certain amount our rates decrease. That is fairly common practice for MC & Visa processors. Amex bases everyone's rate on volume.
posted on May 26, 2001 12:47:19 AM
"Everything is wonderful until all of a sudden you find its not."
I would certainly agree with that. And I can't help but observe that those loyal supporters of Paypal in this thread have never had a problem with the service. But look at the comments from those who have had problems. I'd say the dissatisfaction rate is probably around 99%. The stories are all similar.
If you do decide to take Paypal, it's very important that you have proof of each and every shipment. Without delivery confirmation, Paypal will nail you to the wall. In my case, I send $10 CDs. Delivery confirmation is only for priority mail, so that would increase my expenses by about $4 for each $10 CD I sell. Plus the extra paperwork.
If you want to take your chances, remember that you are whistling past the graveyard. I hope it is no longer Paypal's policy to freeze or lock entire accounts for several weeks over a $5 dispute, but I don't know.
For me, the decision is very simple. Paypal has used this forum to disseminate misinformation from day one. They have lied to us repeatedly, unashamedly. Starting with "always free" to "we hope the extra services will encourage you to upgrade" to "no one will be forced to upgrade" and on and on and on. It should be painfully obvious by now that to believe anything posted by Paypal in these threads is foolish. I may be a rube, but I prefer not to deal with a company that I know is lying to me.
I was suspicious of Paypal at first, but when I tried them, I though they were the best thing since sliced bread. I would have gladly foregone the bonuses and paid their fees from the start. I always abided by Paypal's terms (though they changed on a daily basis), but once a problem came up and Paypal was faced with a chargeback ($15), all their terms and my rights went out the window. They locked up my account for nearly three months, all the while notifying my customers that I had received the customers' payments. The guy who filed fraud charges was kicked off eBay for shill bidding and other offenses, but Paypal didn't care. They only wanted to cover their asses for the $15, and for that they were willing to destroy my business without a second thought. Thankfully, I was already in the process of closing my account so the damage was minimal.
Roofguy, I appreciate Yisgood's observations. He has researched this issue, and compared many different payment services. I have no reason to believe Yisgood has an agenda. What's yours?
posted on May 26, 2001 05:31:30 AMIf your going to make statements it'd be nice if you made a call first so you dont look stupid.
I have to believe that even the moderators have stopped reading whynot's lengthy posts, or else there would have been a moderation call for that remark.
Delivery confirmation is only for priority mail
This is totally false, twinsoft. Someone has terribly misinformed you. I've used DC for Media Mail many, many times and they even have the rates for it for both Priority Mail and Media Mail/BPM/Parcel Post, publicly available on their website.
posted on May 26, 2001 11:47:33 AM
I don't have a hidden agenda. I am neither for or against paypal. If it works for you then use it.
I don't post much anymore I mainly lurk since I rarely have time to answer posts. I have the flu right now so I have nothing but time....
I see quite a bit of mis-information on accepting credit cards and processing here. I know a great deal, but I am no expert on the subject. I however am related to or friends with some folks that are experts. If I don't know the answer to something I call one or several of them for clarification.
Accepting credit cards does not need to be overly exspensive. Some places do not charge setup or application fees. Nor do they require you to buy equipment through them or an expensive lease.
http://www.echo-inc.com Excellent for online merchants. They can have you up and running in 2 business days. Easy application.
Bad credit does not prevent you from getting a merchant account. When they run a credit check they are mainly looking for a history of banking problems. IE: Closed checking account that have a negative balance. They are also looking to see if you have had a merchant account previously that was terminated for fraud.
I have never been asked for one iota of tax information to establish a merchant account. I have also never paid any upfront fees to set one up.
One business owner in my area has filed for bankruptcies under 3 different business. He is still able to get a merchant account for his new business.
I will try to post more links to good processors as I dig them out of my bookmarks.
[ edited by shop4shoes on May 26, 2001 11:49 AM ]
posted on May 26, 2001 03:00:05 PM
Some very interesting dialog since my last post.
Shop4Shoes is again right on the money with attaining a merchant account. We for example did not have to sign with the processors we did that have a fairly rigorous qualifications process. We did this as A. it was advised by both our bank and legal council. We do pretty decent volume and are at 14 of the top branded sites on the net most under terms of consignment, some allow us direct sales just like eBay where we perform all charges etc.
A merchant account does not really look into your PERSONAL credit to begin with. Your a business, thats what they want to look at. For example, when we first started hunting for a merchant account we went to Citibank who told us we had to be in business at least 2 years (which we were) but they did not deal with mail order small business in merchant services. They did forward us to another aggregate processor.
If someones making $500 a month no a merchant account really isnt suitable for what they are doing unless they are a business again, then you get the assets attached as tell ya' what, 99% of the best sites on the web wont even speak to you about using their points of sale unless you do have displyable credibility and feedback isnt it.
We for example had helped (for a fee) over 20 businesses in our community get on the web and not a single one has failed. They are happy as happy can be and only 1 of them utilizes eBay as it did fit their needs perfect.
What needs to come into place is a eCommerce standard for ALL people and from what I was told yesterday thats coming.
Rates will vary from card processor to processor as due the levels of service. One reason we went with the processors we have is the support. We've had hundreds of hosers try and take advantage of us and had only 3 stick, international orders, chareback and nothing one can basically do about it.
Of additional note, and I asked this of PP before never getting a response are two important items. Again, if a consumer wants to send me $25 an makes a typo and puts in $250 will we get reimbursed the error in commission paid. Or as a buyer, whats to stop the seller from just moving that $250 elsewhere, another account and the buyer is hosed. Shut the sellers account off? I am sure that will make the buyer who's out $225 feel much better. Secondly, Visa/MC, Amex & Discover do NOT recognize the postal service confirmation delivery as a valid delivery confirmation. We went through this with one person. His kid actually recieved the parcel and threw out the priority mailer and never told dad what we sent arrived. He filed a chargeback... They were honest folks, honest mistake. But when it occured we were told UPS/FEDEX are recognized, postal service is not. I asked PP about this before, no response as well.
As is often the case in life people never find out about trouble until it strikes. Nothing new there and it happens to everyone. Murphy's law I believe. From what I have read, whats been reported in the media and such forums as AW is that when problems arise w/ PP the seller/buyers are generally "out of the loop", that the service exclusively arbitrates any disputes/problems and that its weeks, sometimes months before resolution. That in the interim the users do send off emails and queries of status and get zero responses. I can see someone who gave up full-time work and supplements income via say eBay all of a sudden put in a real pinch when they're payments from buyers are still being taken but the seller cant move the money yet is expected to ship.
I asked about this before as well in my 10 questions. M/C Visa REQUIRE we ship within 48 hours of charge. What about PP? A friend of mine bought some stuff for his kids and used PP and the seller took weeks to ship it. He did complain as he knows we have to ship in 48 hours. His daughters present arrived a week after her party. In theory, he is damaged, he'd never have paid or bought it. He assumed his card payment was just like any purchase he's made at Amazon or elsewhere. They charge when they are ready to ship and within 48 hours of it, its out the door.
Private sellers WILL have options with the new regulations and way that eCommerce will be managed. There will be fee's and there will be delivery requirements.
I dont fault paypal a bit for what or how they do things. As I noted, in my eyes I have respect for them and think they have alot of guts. In our case however, no business with any business sense enters into agreements where things are not made crystal clear to them. I wouldnt go in and buy a car when someone refuses to answer any questions I have about it. Contrary to roofguys assesment of large web businesses I know of SEVERAL who have looked into using third party payments and backed right away as they realize the services want far too much control over them and their clients and that customers contracts are with their banks and THEM as the seller keeping a clear path of both parties rights.
Contrary to one message here, its NOT illegal for say Walmart to charge your card for goods you get at K/MART. It IS a breach of their card processing contract, not a LAW. The reason its a breach is the card processor and merchant bank can no longer guarentee the goods in any way shape or form as the SELLER being paid is walmart but they are NOT the owner/supplier of the goods. Its exactly why 99% of sites that are business 2 business or business to consumer sales on the net use consignment. Buyer pays, a transfer of ownership of the goods occurs to the actual seller be it uBid, FirstAuction, iDeal, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, CDW, Tiger Direct, any of em'. EVERYONES rights are in place.
Its not an issue of size, its an issue of protection. If any business could make charges for any other business what would we have? Absolute anarchy and fraud run rampant.
Ive read many of Twinsoft's posts and I have a feeling we are in much the same line of business and in our line of business we end up with alot of people who buy things and have absolutely no idea what they are doing with what they buy. Technical issues, theft, copying and more. Consumers will baltently make accusation w/o it being based in any facts. Even the major retailers in the same genre have the same issues at their massive store fronts. So protection for BOTH sides is imperative and most urgently so are REAL policies and action based on a REAL time frame, not one of which is "weeks or months" on end.
From what I read YisGood's post is on the money from threads I have read around the net.
And if we were all so very far off base then why isnt someone in here, this thread and responding? Why has there Never been a complete response to even one of our questions?
What we'd like to see is simple. Full disclosure and a bill of rights for the consumers and sellers. This way we can ALL make informed decisions and all these various threads and complaints in the associated forums need not even be. Here's the policy, given this circumstance here's how its handled so everyone knows.
The fed ought simply mandate that yesterday but its only a bandaid patch and it would more than likely harm growth of the services. If someone knew right up front "given this circumstance, this is what happens" they might not engage in the risky purchase.
As Twin stated, there are quite the few complaints in forums and quite the little response back. And as I noted, I am positive these ones you are able to see and read are but a very very small fraction of the total numbers of complaints/problems. Most people dont even know these places exist. Its not like the avg joe who doesnt get goods or a refund gets told by a third party service or the point of sale... goto auctionwatch.com and slam us in the message forums.
PP was/is? under scrutiny by the BBB for being unresponsive to consumers/sellers complaints last I knew. I'd bet they have enough of em' that its probably somewhat overwhelming. Perhaps not.
Now for that issue alone... put aside everything else. As a business thats the absolute WORST thing ANY business thats reputable wants to hear, ESPECIALLY given that its the "Card processor" if you will.
If Citibank came under scrutiny of the BBB and others for being unresponsive to masses of people who got frustrated enough to complain to such entities then they'd not only have an exodus of accounts but real issues attracting new ones.
People dont just try once or twice then go contacting authorities or the BBB etc. It generally takes people reaching the limit of frustration to take those steps. And the people who DO take such steps simply REFUSE to be taken or ripped off, again, I am sure there is a considerable percentage that says "Gee... live and learn" and never gets proactive in contacting the BBB etc. In fact its probably a considerably larger segment than do engage in pursuing it. "Gee.well its only $5 or $20, live and learn".
And what of eBay? When these people are zapped eBay looses more than likely a good person and they have zero control over it.
But common business sense shows that when you see a place making news because they are under a BBB investigation for being unresponsive to complaints/questions, especially when they control YOUR money sends up alot of flares to ANY business interested and should to anyone else for that matter.
If you went to buy a car and asked questions and got zero responses would you shop at that dealer? Or one day your told this, come back a week later and your told that. It comes in a V8, next week, oh, sorry, no V8 and the stadard CD surround sound player is not stadard, its $1400 more, not free. Youd shop there? Or if you pick up your newspaper and it says "Wookey Ford is under investigation by the BBB for being unresponsive to consumer issues & service." your going to get your next car there?
Would you bank at a bank that made news for being reported to the BBB for being unresponsive to the customers? Make a new account? Of coure not. It takes more, MANY MORE than a few complaints for the BBB to step into place and for the News to pick up on it. So, as a business one must assume for every complaint we read at these various places there are many many more that you never hear about. Again, I gave an off the wall set of figures in this thread.
If they did a million transactions a week and not 1%, not half of 1% but instead 1/4 of one percent have problems thats still 2,500 transactions w/ issues and they do considerably more than a million transactions a week... Yet, at say First Auction they wont get 2,500 problems in a year more or less a week as THEY do the charge, via consignment they OWN the goods and as such the consumers bank, the merchant bank and card processor follow guidelines that ENSURE a REAL outcome. Not weeks and weeks or months of nothing where everyones in the dark.
I'd expect it in such a business as they are in. Thats why I have the utmost respect for em' and the evolution of eCommerce they are engaging in opening up. That doesnt however mean as a business its smart for us to use and its why you wont see Barnes & Noble, Gateway and others using it. Its not that they dont want to. They want to give buyers as many options as they possibly can! So do we. But not at the expense of our control over our business or that of reliquishing our rights and more importantly those of our customers.
posted on May 26, 2001 03:56:41 PM
I've used PayPal since January 2000. I've had flawless results with many transaction, receiving and sending payments. I'd imagine even many skeptics will admit it sure is nice to be able to zap a payment to Jethro instead of the alternative of sending money orders.
Here's a recent article (5/25) that examines Online payment options: PayPal or plasitc. One point raised in the article is PayPal customers have get verified to spend over $250 with their credit card, on 5/30 that limit is being raised to $1000.00.
I also believe that PayPal has irked some sellers that have gone the route of getting a merchant account only to find that Jethro is now able to receive payments just as easy.
I am sorta use to just zippin' along until done.