posted on November 11, 2000 10:32:27 AM new
In a move that will guarantee that if he ever becomes President he will most likely be considered an illegitimate leader of a corrupt administration by the majority of
American citizens, George W. Bush has authorized his father's Secretary of State to "seek a court order today" to prevent the people from having their votes hand
counted. It's one thing to argue that the Palm Beach 19,000 made a mistake with their ballots, and that this mistake can't be remedied, it's another to attempt to
prevent a legal hand count of ballots in order to ascertain the will of the voters. Valusia, Broward, and Palm Beach counties have planned hand counts for today. In
Republican Seminole County the other day, nearly 100 new votes were found for Bush by doing exactly that. The genie is out of the bottle and Bush can't put it back. A
hand count doesn't mean that every single ballot need be looked at. What it means is that the ballots rejected by the machine need to be examined for two things.
First, and most important, the human counter looks for evidence that the ballot had been punched, but the little paper square, called the "chad," for one reason of the
other, has not fallen off. In such cases, the machine would read that ballot as "no vote." The Washington Post reports that "In Palm Beach County, there are about
10,000 such ballots, known as "undervote" ballots. In Miami-Dade there are another 10,000 to 11,000, and in Broward County about 6,700. All three counties are
heavily Democratic, and some Gore officials believe a thorough hand counting of the undervote ballots might yield additional votes for the vice president." Secondly,
when ballots are double-punched, either by the voter or by someone who had the ballot prior to the voter, voters often take a pencil or a pen and indicate their choice
with a circle or an arrow. Once the machine has rejected the ballot, the counter can easily see such markings.
Since Republican Seminole County has established that such decisions are prefectly legal in Florida, having engaged in such a count the other day, and since we are
three days from the Florida state deadline for finishing the recount, there's little doubt that any attempt to legally prevent such hand counting from taking place is an
attempt on the part of George W. Bush to steal the presidency by negating the will of the people. If the mainstream newspapers and the television talking heads back
him on this today, and you know well enough from experience how to determine that, we will then be at the beginning of a profound Constitutional crisis, because a
majority of Americans will not stand for it. I sincerely hope that Mr. Bush thoroughly understands the implications of what he is doing. However, his stunning lack of
insight into the philosophic underpinnings of justice and of government in the past, coupled with the well-documented arrogance and single-mindedness of both he and
those around him, do not, I'm sorry to say, bode well. --Politex, 11/11/00
posted on November 11, 2000 10:58:51 AM new
In the clearest indication to date that George W. Bush is feeling his presidential lead slipping away, James Baker, his Florida spokesman, has announced that the Bush
campaign has requested a federal injunction from the U.S. Dictrict Court of Florida against continuing the ongoing manual vote count in two Florida districts, Palm Beach and Volusia, against the planned manual vote count in Broward Country, against the scheduled consideration of a manual vote count in Dade, and against any future manual counts in any of the other counties in Florida.
Baker gave three reasons for requesting this injunction. First, he claimed that there are no standards to determine how the will of the voter is to be seen in cases of "chads" and
double-votes. Secondly, there is a potential for human error or mischief. Third, the votes have already been recounted, as directed by Florida law. Baker concluded that he would withdraw the Bush request for an injunction if Gore accepted the unofficial, incomplete report of a Bush victory by 327 votes, subject to the counting of overseas ballots.
Baker answered only three questions after making his statement, hastily cutting off reporters and quickly leaving. The first question had to do with the fact that Florida law allows for a manual count request within 72 hours of a reported vote count, which is what happened and was being carried out. Why, then, was Bush not allowing a legal action run its course? Baker did not answer that. Instead, he repeated portions of his announcement. The second questioner reminded Baker that yesterday he said legal actions only prolong and delay, and that Gore should not do so. Yet, it is Bush, not Gore, who is doing so. Baker repeated if Gore agrees that Bush won, he would withdraw the request for an injunction. The
third question elicited an answer from Baker that Bush did not initiate legal activities first, since voters have already filed legal actions. Baker identified any such suit as being created by Goresupporters" rather than by a person who feels that his voting right has been violated. (oh?)
After the Baker press conference a Florida Republican observer said he doubted that the grounds indicated by Baker were strong enough to obtain an injunction against the manual vote counts. No one thought to ask why the manual vote count in Republican Seminole County which gained Bush 98 of his 327 vote lead was not questioned by Baker. In a fitting conclusion to the TV segment, an NBC reporter standing in the middle of Crawford, Texas, the crossroads town near the Bush ranch, reminded viewers that she did a
story on the woman in charge of elections in Austin, Texas, the city where Bush votes. That woman said that she uses manual counting rather than machine counting to resolve election disputes, because machine counting is more subject to error (but only in Texas?)
Many of the referred to articles are appearing in excite.com news and are gone by the time I link. In the past, when attempting links to that source, noone has been able to view the link for whatever reason. Also some are transcripted information provided along with real player video out takes and those I don't think are linkable.
In any case, it's in the news, and the news is domain stuff....and I'm not making it up.
Refer to this post for future complaints, and by now you've seen that snippets are all you're getting.
[ edited by krs on Nov 11, 2000 11:18 AM ]
posted on November 11, 2000 11:23:18 AM new
Doncha wonder how the repeated handling and rehandling of the actual ballots may affect the chads, whether intentionally or unintentionally?
I think both sides are going to play the "let's call it finished when I'm ahead" game.
I'm all for the "will of the people", but that's only if the people actually have a will . . . Don't the folks in Florida feel like hand puppets? You know, the majority of those voters who are screaming for another vote, didn't even know they were confused about the ballot until the phone bank, (telemarketers)and media began a massive mission?
I really and truly have no interest in which cantidate is declared the victor at this point. There will be no real winner. And the more these ballots are handled the less faith I have in the process.
This has been kinda like chewing on a nice piece of jerky. Starts out real good . . .
posted on November 11, 2000 11:27:50 AM new
joice,
I like having the article or quote right there in the thread. It's hard to stay "in the flow" when you're waiting and bouncing between links. And this is a "current" event.
Instead of having a black and white rule dictation, can't we have a little leeway? Are moderators allowed to use discretion?
These obviously aren't being put here to disrupt, simply to inform.
'sides, KRS and I are on opposite sides of the fence anyway
I think you're right; this whole mess will ultimately be laid at the feet of Chad.
There is one thing though; don't take what I post to indicate which side of this business that I'm on. Right now, I think that the entire ballyhoo is a national shame.
I do, however, wonder how anyone can believe that the Florida activities in this election have not been influenced by some rather unsophisticated manipulations by the bushmen.
It's pretty clear, I think, that they've attempted to ambush Gore.
posted on November 11, 2000 11:51:30 AM new
Oh, and don't blame Joice in this matter. She no doubt has only responded to the whining, snivelling, crybaby complaints of any one of the Bush supporters here. It's just a continuation of the governor's amatuerish coverup attempt.
posted on November 11, 2000 12:02:04 PM new
Are you trying to convince me that AW is controlled by Bush? Har.
And Florida, too? Har har.
There may be a Bush governor there, but do you really think he's all that effective?
Florida's been screwed up (administratively) for so many years, it likely won't be in my lifetime that they ever find their, um, rear end. Maybe they need to start at the top and work their way down?
It would be different if there was anything new about this confusion in Florida. But no. It's been this way for many years.
And I do know what I'm talking about. I've done a lot of business in Florida, business that required regulatory permits and cooperation. We ended up in court and we won. The leadership in Florida is a hoot.
So, you're gonna straddle that fence with me, huh? Either way we land, it's a long fall.
posted on November 11, 2000 12:42:08 PM new
Florida is full of whackos. I saw a thing the other day while digging around that told the story of a guy in Florida who was convicted for shooting his dog because he thought it was gay.
Calm down... It'll all be over in a few days, win or lose. Please don't have a stroke on us.
At this point there are so many rumors and opinions floating around that it's hard to tell who the good guys are, and we all know that the good guys are the ones on our side. Maybe it's time for all of us to chill out a little bit, take everything that we read and hear with a grain of salt, and see how it all plays out. 99% of the rumors and gossip (from both sides) will be repudiated after a few days anyway. The end result of the election is what matters, and the rumors and gossip won't change a thing except for making us all look foolish in the end.
BTW: Florida is full of whackos. I saw a thing the other day while digging around that told the story of a guy in Florida who was convicted for shooting his dog because he thought it was gay.
It seems to me that this paints Floridians with a rather wide brush. I think each of the 50 states has it's own share of wackos. Florida just happens to be under a microscope right now and thus the wackos are magnified.
[ edited by abingdoncomputers on Nov 11, 2000 01:36 PM ]
posted on November 11, 2000 03:46:19 PM new
krs, after all this, I think Gore will be the next President. I did vote for Bush. With all this, how could he NOT be President. The order the Repulicans started of not having those ballots hand counted was overturned, so it is most likely Vice President Gore, will be President Gore.
I am wondering who, first order, he is going to thank in his happy acceptance speech.
"I am so pleased, and grateful to the people of Florida, and particulary 3 counties there......"
posted on November 11, 2000 03:50:33 PM new
I think to bash the actions of either party is just a bit absurd. If the situation were reversed the same dog and pony show would still be going on. We would just be changing costumes. I'm a Bush supporter so I find the actions of the Democrats disgraceful. On the other hand, I'd probably be doing the same thing. Let's be honest. We're only disgusted when it's the "other team".
posted on November 11, 2000 03:50:35 PM new
krs, Oh I just read what you posted up there about whacko Floridians, well I resemble that remark! My dad lives there part time... oh never mind.....
posted on November 11, 2000 05:44:56 PM new
In '94 in Maryland we had a very close Governor's race after which the losing Republican did not wish to accept the results. Her supporters sought deep, hard, and desperate for evidence of fraud and election irregularities. This included matching voting lists for duplication and against lists of imprisoned felons and of deaths and claiming every match was a fraudulent vote. Well in almost all cases this actually reflected that some people share the same name. (They did find at least one person who had submitted an absentee ballot but died before election day and a few other very vanilla irregularities). Point being - In Florida we have not begun to see how undignified such a fight can be. To date Baker's injunction request seems the least respectible action taken.
posted on November 11, 2000 05:55:20 PM new
i]iI think to bash the actions of either party is just a bit absurd. If the situation were reversed the same dog and pony show would still be going on. We would just be changing costumes. I'm a Bush supporter so I find the actions of the Democrats disgraceful. On the other hand, I'd probably be doing the same thing. Let's be honest. We're only disgusted when it's the "other team".[/i]
If their places were reversed, you darned well BET Bush would be pursuing HIS legal rights in FL as well.
But I seriously doubt that Gore would be presumptively naming cabinet members, or trying to subvert the legal rights of the voters of FL by filing suit for injunctions in federal court.
Gore has said that when all the votes are fairly and accurately counted, he will respect the final outcome, whoever the winner. Unfortunately, Bush has said no such thing. The Bush position is that it's over NOW, and voters' rights and legal recourses be damned. I find it unconscionable, and I can't state that loudly enough.
I've not liked or approved of all of the activities and comments from the Gore campaign, but they haven't been nearly as inappropriate or outrageous as Bush's actions and his representatives' comments.
posted on November 11, 2000 06:03:15 PM new
President (soon to be) Bush is not in need of shame. Nor is their a need for anyone but Gore to consider conceeding.
My real concern in all of this is the possible ability of that pathological liar Gore to somehow manipulate or steal the election won by Bush according to all the established rules.
All of you need to get a life. This is my first visit to this site but I could not believe the liberal BS my wife told me that I would find here.
Some of you may even discover the need to become republicans if you ever sell enough merchandise and have to start paying taxes.
posted on November 11, 2000 06:19:52 PM new
First! Mr Gore, Stop holding the Constitution
hostage!!
Second. I believe all you people on this AW
(AUCTION WATCH LOLL) are parroting what you hear on TV or read on some newsgroup
posted on November 11, 2000 08:13:11 PM new
Why Mr. Bush! Do you read your own statements?
The core of Bush's law suit against the state of Florida is that a machine count of
the votes is more accurate than a hand count, and a hand count will simply introduce inaccuracies into the counting process. Yet, two years ago in Texas, Bush signed a
bill into law that did just the opposite, affirming that a hand count is more accurate than a machine count. Here is the relevant passage: "(d) If different counting
methods are chosen under Section 214.042(a) among multiple requests for a recount of electronic voting system results, only one method may be used in the recount. A
manual recount shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount and an electronic recount using a corrected program shall be conducted in preference to an
electronic recount." Clearly, Bush will say and do anything to win, even contradict his own recorded beliefs. --Politex, 11/11/00
posted on November 11, 2000 08:16:37 PM new
BUSH LITIGATION UPDATE...Bush is requesting an injunction to stop the ongoing hand counting in Florida and asking for other remedies, such as declaring the
buttefly ballot lawful, arguing that the Florida voting laws dealing with the hand count option are unconstitutional on the basis of their standards of evaluation. The
federal judge selected to hear the case is Judge Middlebrook, who has been described as "fair" by his clerks. He will hear the case Monday morning at 9:30.
Meanwhile, since the Bush lawyers will argue the Bush case before the judge, Gore has decided that his lawyers will defend the relevant Florida laws in that court.
Observers believe that the Bush team has a difficult burden to prove, with very little legal precedent to defend their position. The Gore camp has been emboldened by
Bush's decision to be the first to take the election to court, particularly with such a weak case. The Gore people believe that Bush's decision is a serious political error.
All of this according to MSNBC. --Politex, 11/11/00.
In a later interview at the ranch in Crawford, Texas, in which we watched Bush talking to his off-camera dog, he was unable to explain the specifics of his federal
injunction. Instead, he said reporters should ask James Baker. He then turned th mic over to Dick Cheney, who spoke longer about nothing than Bush did. Bush
appeared tired, distracted, edgy and out of the loop.
posted on November 11, 2000 09:17:28 PM new
It took me awhile to work up to this post.
I can't stand either one of them. I could not care less about the whole dealy whopper. I have to say though that I hope they fix it soon so Clinton can start packing his bags. Clinton has places to go and people to do. This whole thing is holdin him up I'm thinkin.
posted on November 11, 2000 09:44:10 PM newHe then turned th mic over to Dick Cheney, who spoke longer about nothing than Bush did.
ROTFL. Yeah, but actually there was a little more substance there. All Bush could do was repeat his assigned key words. Cheney at least had some actual sentences in there. Unfortunately, even that meager amount made him look the Presidential one.
[i]Bush
appeared tired, distracted, edgy and out of the loop.[/i]
If he's the next President, I predict a lot more of that.
I figured out the bandaid, btw. Remember we first saw it on him in his *it's almost the oval office and this is almost my cabinet* photo op yesterday? Not only is he trying to look Presidential, he's trying to look like John McCain.
