posted on November 11, 2000 10:37:59 AM new
Forget the 19,000 double votes for president. Put aside the smattering of ballots for Pat Buchanan in Jewish districts. The real focus of today's manual recount is a
block of 10,361 Palm Beach County ballots that named no president in Tuesday's election. If the Democrats can somehow turn some of those nonvotes into Al Gore
votes, Florida's 25 Electoral College votes go to him. And Gore goes to the White House with more than the required 270 electoral votes.
"There's no way all those people didn't vote for president," said Monte Friedkin, head of Palm Beach County's Democratic Party. "Do you really think that people
wanted to vote for the clerk of courts, but not the leader of our country?" The only way to really check, Friedkin said, is with today's hand recount of nearly 4,300
ballots. By eyeballing each ballot from three specially targeted precincts -- areas with high numbers of blank presidential ballots or double votes -- the Democrats hope
to spot things the machines couldn't detect.
In a step aimed at preventing such scrutiny, Gov. George W. Bush gave James Baker -- the former secretary of state who's representing the Texas governor's
interests in Florida -- authority Friday night to seek a court order stopping the Gore campaign from securing manual recounts of contested ballots in Florida, The
Associated Press reported, citing several GOP officials involved in the discussions. The officials said it was very likely the injunction would be sought, but stressed that
it was up to Baker to make the final decision. A source close to Baker said the former secretary had not decided. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity. The
decision, however tentative, underscores the Bush campaign's concern that a widespread manual recount could undermine his fragile lead over Gore and perhaps force
Bush to seek recounts of his own in Florida and other close states....
The GOP is suspicious of the Gore campaign's requests for recounts in Palm Beach, Broward, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties -- all places where Gore won big. The
Gore campaign says the counties were chosen because they were rife with complaints. Democrats hope to find so many irregularities in the three designated Palm
Beach precincts that the canvassing board will feel compelled to recount by hand all 462,657 ballots in Palm Beach County. There are no laws that specify how many
problems would be needed to justify a recount. The stakes increased with the results of the state-mandated recount of Tuesday's vote, which narrowed Bush's lead in
Florida from more than 1,700 votes to 327. Gore picked up 600 votes in Palm Beach County alone, causing the GOP to ask for a third electronic recount today. It will
happen at the same time as the manual recount. Both parties will have representatives in the recount rooms, which are under the supervision of the county's canvassing
board. The three-member board, consisting only of Democrats, granted the recount requests Thursday as protesters and lawsuits against Palm Beach County's
"butterfly" ballot piled up.
With so few votes separating the two candidates, the outcome of the presidential election may indeed lie in the hands of the county workers who will spend today
picking one by one through the ballots -- especially if they find "dimples" or other marks in places suggesting that uncounted votes were intended for Gore. By law, the
Democrats get to choose which three precincts will be recounted, and Friday night the Gore team and its lawyers were sifting through precinct data hunting for an
advantage. The 15 precincts they focused on were largely Democratic and contained high numbers of problem votes, either uncounted ones or votes that were
disqualified for choosing more than one candidate. According to the results of Wednesday's recount, Precinct 82, a largely black neighborhood in West Palm Beach,
voted overwhelmingly for Gore over Bush: 1,156 to 21. Buchanan got 18 votes. But 150 ballots, nearly 11 percent of the precinct, recorded more than one presidential
vote. Twelve blank presidential ballots were also found. Some of the other precincts under consideration had as many as 184 ballots that did not indicate a choice for
president. The Gore campaign also was comparing demographic data to the poll results, hoping to show that districts with large numbers of elderly voters had the most
problems. --Palm Beach Post, 11/11/00
posted on November 12, 2000 09:30:59 PM new
What I am baffled at is Bush's hypocrisy regarding handcounts. He himself made it a law in his own state of Texas for handcounts to be preferential to machine counts in the event of recounts. And now he's screaming that the very idea that he once endorsed is not fair because the results might not be in his favor?
He has every right to have an army of his men in those rooms and to call for recounts in counties of his own choosing ... so why the fuss and fight? As if we don't know the answer.
posted on November 12, 2000 11:02:14 PM new Why BUSH is on the Verge of LOSING FLORIDA
Hummmmnnn.... maybe because Gore is gonna keep having a recount til he wins?
Maybe cause Gore is only interested in fighting for the rights of the citizens in heavily democratic counties?
Yes, I'm sure Gore will pull this off. He'll probably even be able to look at himself in the mirror.
It's too bad because I had a certain level of respect for the man before the redo, redo, redo cries. Although I never quite adjusted to his constant lies, I thought they were mostly harmless embellishments. Now he just reminds me of the kids we used to play with that yelled redo everytime they lost. We called them sore losers. Guess we'll be calling him Mr. President.
p.s. The ballots in Texas are not anything like the ones in Florida. They're easy to read without forcing interpretation of dimples or even chads. It's apples and oranges.
posted on November 12, 2000 11:13:23 PM new
Recounting is nothing new, and in an election so close as this one either party has a right to a clear and complete compilation of voting preference. That's all Gore is asking for, and if he has to go to court to get it he should.
And who keeps attempting to stand in the way of that? Bush. And why? We don't know, but should find out.
It amazes me how many vehement Bush supporters there are now when before the election there was a widely noncommital attitude in here.
To my view, I think that there has been a great deal of call it 'monkey business' as regards the Florida polling. Call it that or call it criminal activity.
Gore and the country deserve to know whether or not this thing has been on the up and up, yet people blame him for the problem? Look to the 'FBI' thread above. Look to the prior activities of all three Bush brothers. Can anyone really say with confidence that there is no attempted manipulation of this election taking place right before the eyes of the world?
posted on November 12, 2000 11:14:18 PM new
Just out of curiosity... what exactly is Bush's claim to the presidency?
If you'll recall, he was never declared the winner.
In fact, no one was. The only reason why there is even a notion out there that he won rather than the notion that "it cannot be called thus far, let's wait till all the votes are counted" is because the TV networks screwed up and declared him the winner, prematurely. That proved not to be the case. What we do know is that Gore took a majority of the popular vote nationwide. We also know (with a fair degree of certainty) that a majority of those who cast votes in Florida apparently voted for Gore (true, many of those apparent votes won't count). But to presuppose that Bush won, like he is doing, I don't see how.
posted on November 12, 2000 11:37:32 PM new
Typical liberal/Democrat style and way of thinking. Why must the allegations of whatever can be conjured, be restricted to GOP/Bush?
26,000 ballots were disqualified in a heavy Republican area of a different state, but I don't hear a demand by Jessie Jackson and other Democrats to have (those) ballots recounted.
"Look at the Bush brothers? What the hell does the Bush brothers have to do with this matter? Presumptions? Look at Gore, his dirty laundry is known and still hanging out.
Each time someone points out that the Governor of Florida is GWB's brother, I am sure we can find Democrats in the areas that Gore won that indicate a conflict of interest or have a direct connection to (possible) ballot/vote control.
If Bush wants to stir the pot, he should demand an inspection and recount of all ballots in Cook county, IL.
Don't media hype your guesses and your unsubstantiated accusations, provide facts.
posted on November 12, 2000 11:50:37 PM new James My post is speaking to the question of winning or losing Florida. I don't think Gore will ever give that up.
I'm also confused as to why there was ever an announcement of any kind as to a winner - considering the # of absentee votes out all across the country - literally millions - I thought it was totally irresponsible of the networks to predict. But, they didn't ask me.
KRS I assume that Mr. Bush is fighting a hand recount of four heavily democratic counties because he's smart enough to realize the odds are against him. Especially considering that the hand counts will require more handling of ballots and some guess work - of course, we all hope they won't resort to guessing. I'm sure Gore would object just as loudly if it were reversed.
As to the monkey-business - There's no way that it's limited to Florida. And, your impression of the Bush boys can easily be swayed either way depending on whose version you're reading. I don't know enough about the others to comment, but I know enough about GW Bush to say that he's made a lot of progress for our state and kept his promises of bringing unity between the parties in Texas.
posted on November 12, 2000 11:53:46 PM new
The facts you seek are in these threads. There is a link to substantial exposures of activities of all three bush brothers here. Go find it. I'm not posting the same things over and over so that you or anyone will have a convenience.
Also, I'm not making arguments. I'm asking how any thinking person can accept results in Florida on face value. It hasn't been my experience to know any aware people who cannot even fall off of a turnip truck.
posted on November 13, 2000 12:04:35 AM newmybidness,
Much of the politex analysis is from the democratic party in Texas. It seems that GW's promise of party unity in Texas is yet unfulfilled.
I don't have a staunch party stance. In looking over other Republicans, however, I can't help questioning the wisdom of that part in selecting GW as the candidate. They might have looked a little bit northward to Oklahoma and Senator Dan Rickles to obtain a similar support base but also have a much broader range of national issue expertise than has the Governor of Texas. And there are many other viable Republicans who, I think, would have had no problem kicking Gore's butt in this election.
posted on November 13, 2000 12:12:36 AM new
Mybidness,
As you are in Texas, do you know where they keep Neil Bush these days? Is he in prison, or Cuba?, or Florida? Does he live at Santo Trafficante Jr's house in Palm Beach?
Whatever happened to him?
posted on November 13, 2000 12:15:31 AM new Go find it. I'm not posting the same things over and over so that you or anyone will have a convenience.
KRS There's no need to be snippy about it. I've already read that link - I'll give you a hint - it's extremely biased against the "Bushies" Anytime you read an article that refers to the subject of the report in derogatory terms you should consider it to be a biased report. That link would not be where I would go if I were seeking both sides of the story. As a matter of fact, if I were going to ask someone to provide me with an unbiased link about the Bush family - it wouldn't be you I'd be asking.
I've found one thing that we'll agree on. Bush wasn't necessarily the best choice the Republicans had - but neither was Gore. Why would any party put in a man who has a reputation as a liar?
posted on November 13, 2000 12:19:09 AM new
[i] As you are in Texas, do you know where they keep Neil Bush these days? Is he in prison, or Cuba?, or Florida? Does he live at Santo Trafficante Jr's house in Palm Beach?
Whatever happened to him? [/i]
KRS I've promised to keep it a secret. I work for them ya know. Just think Hoffa - Neilboy got outta line once too often.
Seriously, I don't have a clue - not really interested either.
posted on November 13, 2000 01:05:07 AM new
The fact that Neil was not imprisoned for his part in the S&L embroglios speaks to the family connections well enough, and you may be right; rather than living IN the Trafficante estate, he may be part of it.
The cuban connections more than hinted at in Neil's history are, in many cases, the same connections which have been presented in much of the substantial speculation concerning the Kennedy assassination, the Watergate burglary, the Contra arms piping, and so many other parts of our historical surmisal that they are hard to ignore. And now along comes this Saurez character as if from the past to assume the duties of Republican party administrator of the absentee balloting in the state of Florida,under good ol' Jeb.
What does it take to get people to smell a rat?
On Gore; he's a mutt. The only reason that I can see that he's the candidate at all is his standing as vice-president. Historically vice presidents become presidential candidates. Who knows, Clinton may have selected him guessing that he would lose and thereby creating an earlier opportunity for Hillary to run for president in 2008, eh?
A character flaw and a propensity that indicates a psychological disorder and requires weighing regarding national security and domestic fairness, stability, and adherence to the Constitution and all laws.
posted on November 13, 2000 08:36:30 AM new
Lots of lakes on that map too. Might havta buy a boat.
Did you watch Comedy Central with Jon Stewart on election night? They had a whole routine about the map being so red, even though Gore was ahead at the time. It was one of the better election night coverages on the air.
posted on November 13, 2000 08:52:39 AM newThere's no need to be snippy about it.
LOL, mybidness. This line may well replace "is that your final answer" as the newest catch phrase in America. In fact, just as Bush became known for "read my lips, no new taxes", the "snippy" line may well become what Gore ultimately known for. Good one!
posted on November 13, 2000 11:07:19 AM new
Oh nooooooooo, what timing for sgtmike to come back from his suspension vacation in the midst of a Republican/Democrat battle. LOL
Like father like son, says I... The little Bush will do whatever he can to win. Read my lips: No accurate vote count!
posted on November 13, 2000 11:33:05 AM newLike father like son, says I... The little Bush will do whatever he can to win.
Interesting statement. Here is a quote from Gore given early in the campaign:
"I’m not like George Bush,” Al Gore told an aide in 1999, when the campaign was just gearing up. “If he wins or loses, life goes on. I’ll do anything to win.”
Here is a link to the entire article so that you can read it in context:
posted on November 13, 2000 11:55:43 AM new
Yes, I think Gore WOULD do anything to win including subvert the electoral process. He acts like a spoiled baby. If he gets his way there will be recount upon recount until the ballot clerks and registrars can't even see straight anymore.
His behavior has divided a nation and made us the laughing stock of the world. Gore has never been denied anything he wanted. I think now the mendacious spoiled brat personality will come to the forefront.
We are seeing neighbors in bitter arguments with neighbors in public places like the supermarket & restaurants. This election and Gore's behavior has undermined the ONE thing all Americans believed in, the process of choosing a president.
Having been both a ballot clerk AND an elected official (head town counsel)AND a winner by 10 votes (went to recount) for eight years I can tell you Gore makes a mockery of the voting system. There are checks and balances( and double checking) in place everywhere Too bad his daddy ain't around to put the Tennessee fix in for him. I think Tenn.'s vote was VERY telling. They KNOW who Al Gore is and what he's not.
Regardless of whether or not he is elected, I don't think he is presidential material.
posted on November 13, 2000 12:59:02 PM new
Man you all are buying into the CNN/NBC/ABC/CBS/FOX/AP horserace genre of newsreporting.
Neither man is president. There is the 20th amendment to the constitution that allows for peaceful, smooth transition. If I hear Oprah or any other media goon wail "constitutional crisis" I am going to scream.
We also must remember that ballot counting isn't like pulling into mc-freakin-donalds.
it should be done carefully.
Everywhere.
Repubs squeal that the media is liberal...demos that it is conservative.
Stop and think who owns the media. It isn't the populace...no...these are by and large corporations and subsidiaries of larger fortune 1000 companies. So if you really think about it gore isn't a sore loser and bush isn't a 2nd generation whiner, both are Madison Avenue handmaidens...one might get some universal healthcare the other might lower taxes and the market is nervous about both. Because the market wants a stable economy.
On a political scale of 1 to 10 where one is left and 10 is right both candidates hover so close to 5 that the real humor is how Democrats and Republicans differ so little and fight so hard. And we buy into it!
Either candidate will prolly drill for oil in our north pacific waters and alaska. Either candidate will be probusiness etc. Deadlock in the houses...the courts may be where the action is!
Bush should just be baseball comissioner...that's his wish. And Al should shut up and learn a thing or two from Clinton (love him or hate him, he managed to pull 1998/9 out of a hat to still remain popular - except for AM dj's who pull in the strangest callers on the planet or, er, trailer park).
So let democracy happen, let them count the vote, do the right thing...email all the advertisers on CNN etc and tell them what you think of the coverage. CNN is raking in the cash...viewership is so high they could bleed green! And it's because they cover this election like a cockfight on the bayou...all blood and feathers and not very many complex ideas.
posted on November 13, 2000 04:34:37 PM newcapriole - did you hit the nail on the head or what? Husband and I applaud that post from up here in the boonies of NW Wisconsin.
posted on November 13, 2000 04:59:51 PM newdejavu - I was talking to my uncle (in Germany) and he was actually quite admiring of how everything is being handled. And I have to say that Americans, as a whole, have been taking this quite well. No riots, no military moving in - a lot of countries would have had this and worse.
The thing that's making us look like a 'laughingstock' (assuming this is even correct) is the fact that the winner of the popular vote doesn't necessarily win the election.
posted on November 13, 2000 05:47:08 PM new
dejavu:
His behavior has divided a nation and made us the laughing stock of the world.<<<
Which "behavior" do you mean? Do you mean the Floridian Electoral College law that is being followed? When we abide by the law, you call us sour grapes and sore losers. When you think we are skirting the law, you let us know that too. SO --- WHICH ONE IS IT??
