Now unless all bidders know to OPT-OUT, once they become losing UNDER BIDDERS (bidders that don't win the auction) they will get spammed by eBay with "more choices" after the auction ends... er uhm... I mean an eMail "RECOMMENDATION"...
How nice!
Someone explain to me why it is that WE'RE not suppose to contact our under bidders with offers to trade, but eBay can!?!?
posted on June 1, 2001 10:12:19 PM
Perhaps there will be a fee to be included as one of the "Recommendations".
After all, Meg gotta scrape that money up, and fast.
And she's about bled the little people for all they have.
Time to whip up more "Services" for the well-heeled.
posted on June 2, 2001 12:00:47 AM
Oh My GOD!! Dottie, this looks like a revision of a beta program eBay was testing last August. The program was originally called Personalization Technology which was later changed to Search By Example. They were using a company called Dynaptics to implement this program and it was supposed to be an added feature on the My EBay page. I can't believe they're still trying to fit it into their plans because the responses eBay received were all negative.
The info was on eBay's Soapbox but the links are all dead now. However, I started a thread about this topic on AW and also on OAUA, both of which are still available, so you can at least get an idea of what this horrendous program was all about. Here is a copy and paste from the opening post by a pink on eBay's Soapbox asking for some beta testers for the program:
QUOTE
"Dear eBay-ers,
eBay is exploring the possibility of introducing new personalization technology that would help you find items of interest based on your needs and preferences. Currently, we are testing a product that will suggest items to you based on your bid history.
We'd like to invite you to become a beta test member and try out the technology yourself!
All that's required is for you to click on the following URL to access the beta test.
http://216.112.105.77/dynaptics_sign_in.htm
From the page, type in your eBay user ID and your email address. Within 24 hours of receipt of your request, you will be sent an email from Dynaptics (the company we are working with to develop the personalization technology) containing a list of items especially tailored for you! After you try out the test, don't forget to share with us your thoughts. To do so, follow the link to the on-line survey found in the e-mail that Dynaptics will be sending you. Your input will help us shape the look and feel of personalization initiatives before we roll-out to the larger eBay community.
If you're ready to try out the test now, please click on the following URL:
http://216.112.105.77/dynaptics_sign_in.htm
posted on June 2, 2001 01:22:07 AM"Perhaps there will be a fee to be included as one of the "Recommendations"."
victoria, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Not only will losing bidders be SPAMMED by eBay at auction's close, but look for the 'Sell Your Item' page to have a box for sellers to check to "Feature your item in our Recommendations Emails to all underbidders", available for only 25 cents!!!
When do you think eBay will start offering "Top of Search Results Placement" for sellers who are willing to pay MORE than the $19.95 it costs to feature in a category?
posted on June 2, 2001 04:07:25 AM
Redirect bids from high to low. Interesting. Lower the dollar amount, increase the volume? Doesn't make sense. Thanks for pointing it out.
posted on June 2, 2001 10:43:24 AM
I think this program SUCKS and I don't think many of us are aware of it's full impact to both the sellers and buyers. First of all, eBay has no business contacting anyone who is bidding on my auctions. I just know this is going to tick the bidders off because it sure would anger me if I received "SPAM" every time I placed a bid. The OPT OUT feature is a joke. This is the type of program that needs to be an OPT IN because it's really going to turn off a lot of people.
Also, IMO, eBay is interfering in my auctions because the buyer and seller's contract isn't over until payment has been made and the item has been received so, in effect, eBay is taking away any options the seller has if the high bidder backs out. There's no question that this is going to harm the sellers because buyers are being manipulated to rely on eBay to do their searching using a very small set of parameters AND we have to rely on eBay to determine exactly what self-serving advertising it wants to include. I don't know about you but I don't want eBay communicating with my bidders and possibly manipulating their behavior. Are the customers that bid on your auctions yours or eBays?
But the absolutely worse part of this is the tracking and gathering of the bidder's shopping habits. I don't believe for one second that this info isn't going to be passed on to eBay's partners including DoubleClick, Commission Junction, etc. That was my original concern when the Personalized Technology beta program first debuted last July. These emails will most likely be embedded with web bugs as well since eBay has already been using this disgusting method of tracking folks. If this program isn't the most INTRUSIVE piece of garbage I've seen, then I don't know what is.
I would be very interested in seeing the email that is sent out. I believe the company implementing this program is Dynaptics which is the same one involved in the beta personalization program. (please see the July 2000 computer letter below) If you get a chance, please read the links I provided in my other post and read up on the Dynaptics company. All they do is find clever ways to track folks and interfere with their privacy. If anyone receives this email I hope you will report back so we can dissect it.
Quote from the July 2000 computer letter:
QUOTE
"Though Dynaptics is promoting its technology as useful for traditional site personalization, it also sees an opportunity to enhance customers' explicit searching of a large Web site—what the company calls a "personal information e-ssistant," or PSE. It's working with eBay, for instance, to help that site's visitors sift through the thousands of auctions it runs and find interesting items they might not find otherwise. As a customer searches through a site, the Dynaptics program monitors not only the URLs and specific items he views, but also the free-form text that sellers publish about each item. The system is said to be able to identify "themes" by analyzing this text and attaching the appropriate themes to individual viewers. Manna also offers to compress the feedback loop closer to real time, using technology developed in Israel. Its software watches customers' behavior within a site, throws offers at them, and continually updates their individual profiles."
END QUOTE
http://www.dynaptics.com/newsevents/inthenews/inthenews_000710.html
I personally DETEST any type of personalization because this ALWAYS means someone is tracking me and compiling info on my shopping habits, etc to use for their own gain. If I ever decide to run any more auctions on eBay, I will include a warning about the default OPT IN settings for this piece of trash on my listing page. The buyers need to be protected and should be warned and we ALL need to let eBay know how we feel about this privacy intrusion. This really makes me feel sick!!
posted on June 2, 2001 08:13:10 PM
Anyone care to guess what eBay will do to a seller that has an "opt-out" e-mail list of all bidders who have bid on similar items that they're selling?
posted on June 2, 2001 09:20:10 PM
Bounce up for sure!!!! Question is, Is this legal despite the fact that it's ebay's site? I thought not. bhearsch and dottie Thanks! I'm watching!
[ edited by Empires on Jun 2, 2001 09:22 PM ]
posted on June 2, 2001 10:35:53 PM
I wonder how one opts out if one uses sniping software. Also, I wonder how ebay can determine what is similar item for collectibles. Are they going by certain key words?
posted on June 2, 2001 11:09:06 PM
Ruh Roh, looks like Blanche is getting pizzed again.
Not that I don't agree with 100% of what you've stated, but from what I saw back in August 2000 anyone that used this worthless piece of crap technology soon found out that's exactly what it was, worthless.
commentary
Here's how it works. Let's say you bid on a redGeneral Electrictransisterradio.
eBay will then send you a list of scores of items that many times won't even come close to the original item you were bidding on. Anything & everything from red radios, to General Electric hair dryers.
I saw a few of the lists that buyers had sent to them when this was first "tested", and it was good for a laugh. Those that tried it told me they would never use it again.
You are right...this is the final result of the Personalization nonsense ebay tried to get people to try last summer.
If I remember correctly, (and that is iffy), eBay contracted with an outside company to do the Personalization "enhancement". I remember the site but not the name. Looks to me like eBay knew it was horrible, but had the contract and this is how it is being fulfilled.
I wouldn't give a flying....about it if was a choice. Click yes if you want our SPAM. But what fries me is that unless you take a cookie, (which I won't do), you have to affirmatively opt out after each and every bid. I have bid on a few things and it adds another step, ( valuable seconds to sniping too), and I resent eBay saying unless you tell us otherwise we will send you SPAM.
The worst part is that the Recommendations are bizarre. I believe it will turn new users off enough that they will say bidding on eBay is too much trouble.
posted on June 4, 2001 07:00:08 AM
TheRedCircle: In my opinion, it's nothing more than eBay SPAM.
How may eBay related eMails will it take to TURN BIDDERS OFF to shopping in eBays venue?
In addition, I see this OPT-OUT eBay SPAM on the SAME UNDERHANDED LEVEL as the PayPal Opt-Out End Of Auction SPAM they attempted to sneak by us a short while ago!
eBay has an eMail PREFERENCES page where folks are suppose to be able to Opt-In for PROMOTIONAL eMails etc. from eBay. Unfortunately, the End Of Auction Notices are NOT optional preferences... and eBay has conveniently taken that opportunity to SPAM BIDDERS.
ALSO... with all of the cookies that eBay has for tracking users behavior on the site, I am increasingly concerned about WHAT eBay will do with this compiled information as time goes on.
One of eBays new "friends" is TalkCity - who has recently changed it's name to Live World. This www.liveworld.com offers a host of services such as message boards, focus groups and a variety of MARKETING SERVICES with combined data from other clients such as NBC, STARBUCKS, Dr. Scholls, PALM.
Although I have nothing (other than my gut feeling) to base this on, I fear that eBays user base is about to be Marketed To Death... and sincerely worry about where our user profiles will end up!
As a voices 1 member, I have struggled with whether or not to say anything "out loud"... but I remember what it *IS* about me that eBay ORIGINALLY sought after through my involvement in the VOICE OF THE CUSTOMER program. It's FAIR, but HONEST Feedback from real COMMUNITY MEMBERS.
And I realize that although it is very uncomfortable sometimes for the folks at eBay to have the COMMUNITY "up in arms" about various things... lowering the communitys level of awareness unitl it's too late just doesn't seem very FAIR or HONEST to me.
I am NOT trying to start a revolt against eBay or anything like that. I AM trying to be a Voice from the Community, but how productive can my voice be if the community at large is not even aware that they might need a collective one, until it's TOO LATE!?!
eBay is turning up the heat on all of us FROGS.... bringing the water to a slow boil. If Buyers & Sellers seriously begin to DIVERSIFY, (trade on other venues in ADDITION to eBay) perhaps the temperature will remain fairly tolerable for a little while longer.
posted on June 4, 2001 07:30:03 AM
Last evening I bid on some jewelry. This morning I have a spam e-mail offering me car models, stamps, baby toys, 2 different offers of jewelry or 3 different lots of movies. All are totally unrelated to what I bid on.
posted on June 4, 2001 10:23:22 AM
I believe the big picture here is that E-Bay wants to cater directly with suppliers such as liquidators, wholesalers and retail overstock as Meg mentioned at Bill Gates CEO meeting in Seattle!
This will be great for the suppiers of new books, toys ,computer equipment, CD's, tools, clothing etc. of which much of it is made in low labor rate countries!
All the large and medium business have to do is use E-Bay as a venue and warehouse their inventory at point of manufacture and they can start shipping directly from the supplier for less then they can transport the merchandise to another country!
If the items don't sell they can be recycled and made into something else that might!
Look and see where many of your books, toys tools, clothes etc. are made?
I even noticed many of my collectibles books from a prominent U. S. Publisher are printed in China! It would make much more sense to have the books stored at point of origin and shipped from there and place the cost upon the consumer rather then the business paying to have them shipped and stored here in the states or any other country and have to repack and ship again!
This will lower the Publishers costs of the item and the small book stores and Internet sellers who used to buy directly from them in quantity will be competing with sales at the point of origin!
Once this happens and the FEDS and State Revenue departments realize how much they are loosing from these large/medium businesses the next step is "TAXES" which will destroy the small sellers!
Even some of the large sellers who boost making $100,000 a year or more on the Internet will loose eventually when they get tangled up in legal battles in 50 States and the feds over collection of these taxes!
I have been trying to get away from E-GREED for 3 years and some of there new policies may just do it! Went from COMMUNITY to an EMPIRE! We all know what happens to most empires!
Just a little example of High tech Money Management follows:
We have a good example of the HIGH TECH Greed and forget about the small folks with our US Senator from Washington Maria Cantwell (executive of Real Networks)! Wouldn't be surprised to see Meg help her out?
Run for office, loose most of 10 million dollars with a 3 1/2 million debt and still end up with a $200,000 plus expensees a year job and have the former first lady sponser dinners for you to help get out of debt!
Off the soap box!
At least my computers are good for playing games on!
posted on June 4, 2001 12:45:08 PM
What the...? More junk I don't need or want in an auction system?
I don't know what the direct marketers call it, but I'd call this sort of thing "push personalization." Instead of you picking or writing in the kinds of things you want to hear about (such as is done with a lot of "My..." sites, which I'd call "pull personalization" ), the company instead picks how they want to "personalize" you, by trying to guess your interests on the basis of clicks.
While of some theoretical value, this suffers from several fundamental problems. One is it is very easy to overgeneralize. Just because I bought a bumper sticker of one airline does not means I care for a patch of the same airline or more bumper stickers of another airline. Another is latency or over-retention. If I happen to try finding a toy for my nephews for Christmas, or am asked by my parents, who aren't online, to find something they've been looking for, or go out of my way to buy one thing I'll never get something similar of again, does not mean I want to see ads for "similar" things for the next year or more (especially if these too are also over-generalized).
In theory, the more information a system accumulates in a profile about you, the better chance the system has of making a closer guess, but a "closer guess" still takes good programming. Systems can try accounting for some aspects of the above problems too, but this requires a lot more effort, and even then, the best it will do IMO is an "educated guess," no matter how much you are profiled by the direct marketer. Based solely on TRC's report, eBay is making a very poor start of it.
In general (online and offline), direct marketing garners a pathetic (but sufficient for them to keep annoying most people most of the time) response rate of 0.5%, while a few companies that go well out of their way to very carefully target their mailings can (with considerable difficulty and profiling) approach a 5-10%, and more rarely 15-20%, response rate. I've seen one or two much higher claims, but those claims did not specify whether that was for unsolicited or solicited ads or whether the sample size was statistically significant.
If the Ford ignition example is common, they're likely starting on the very low end on eBay, percentage-wise. I for one don't want 199 pieces of spam before they finally hit on something of actual interest, when it is already so easy to find things on eBay, and has been for the whole three years I've been on it. DoubleClick, Annuncio (welcome.ebay.com), and now this latest are just spam-generators in my book; but even aside from my disgust at spam, these "recommendations," even if they got better, would not seem to add any value beyond the more than sufficient ability of "search" and other features already on eBay.
Interestingly, two things that do get me to look further afield than whatever my current searches are set to are not ads, but rather "View seller's other auctions" and a following a seller's link to an outside website (so ironically enough, seeing other things off eBay has prompted me to later add new searches *to* eBay, which I've subsequently bought items from *through* eBay). At least with these, it is my choice on when and where to look, and how much time to spend looking.
However, the "recommendations" are not directly auction interference that I can tell, since eBay (or whoever) seems to be sending such emails after the close of auctions; but around here, isn't that still referred to as bottomfeeding?
I don't need all these "helpful" bells and whistles such as "recommendations" or third-party ads, and have been getting tired of turning them off only to get spammed anyway. I can find what I need or want easily enough. I'm so tired of all the needless junk that I'm scarcely bidding at all anymore (once in the last three or four months). Hmmm, what will they think of next? Spamming people like me with more ads to try getting us to bid more again?
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
[ Corrected some spelling and clarified one statistic. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Jun 4, 2001 12:48 PM ]
posted on June 4, 2001 01:21:12 PM
When word gets around that bidding on an item will cause your email to get spammed it won't be an attractive feature.
posted on June 4, 2001 01:44:23 PM
Well, lets see.... I bid on but did not win a book - the auction title was "Pee-Wee Harris Mayor For a Day 1926 DJ 1st". The book is part of a series of juvenile books for boys published in the 1920's with a Boy Scout theme.
I already have the book, in fact I have the whole series. I specifically bid on this book because I want to upgrade the current one in my collection. Not because it has a Dust Jacket (although thats a bonus) and especially not because the seller claims its a 1st edition.
By not winning THIS book, eBay has tried to console me with the following:
A. A. Milne, SUCCESS 1st HB/DJ 1926
BELLOWS FALLS by Archer Mayor.1st Ed,HC/DJ
Pee-Wee Harris, On The Trail - Whitman
Pee-Wee Harris on the Trail
CD single Day One - DJ promo
An Eye for a Bird ERIC HOSKING 1st w/dj
FREUD A LIFE FOR OUR TIME by GAY HC/DJ 1ST
A CURE FOR DREAMS - KAYE GIBBONS HB/DJ/1st/VG
So, eBay seems to think that I would be happy with ANY book if it has a Dust Jacket and may be a 1st edition. And in case I have any money left over, they thought that just maybe I would want a CD, after all, it was owned by or was made for DJ's...
Okay, if eBay's "smart" software was so smart, wouldn't it have noticed that out od the dozen or so auctions I have won over the last few weeks, this was about the only one I lost... does that not give a clue as to how little importance I placed on this book?
Anyway.... I hadn't noticed the "opt out" thingie (too busy bidding. I'll use it next time. Good thing I won most of my bids this weekend, I can't imagine what eBay would "recommend" based on the OTHER stuff I bid on.
posted on June 4, 2001 01:49:26 PM
So I make a bid this morning and opt-out of the recommendations. I make another bid this afternoon... my hand goes to automatically opt-out of the recommendations and...
posted on June 4, 2001 01:58:21 PM
Well, for those of you wondering why bidders haven't been going to other auction sites, this is your lucky day.
If I have to be bothered with these ridiculous emails everytime I bid, and if they sell my preferences to garbage like doubleclick, I am sure to spend my money on other web sites.
I saw a news report on Doubleclicks office in NYC last summer, and how they had basketball courts, walls to climb, and other employee perks. A few weeks later, they laid off a good portion of their workforce. And personally, I could care less if they starve (figuratively).
posted on June 4, 2001 02:04:28 PM
Now opt-IN? Well, that's much more polite, and I can withdraw most of what I was directing at eBay. It is unsolicited/opt-out direct marketing I am disgusted with; all other things being equal, I don't mind opt-IN direct marketing (it's just too hard to distinguish between them in a .sig ).
Still, the rest of my comments on "push personalization" (how it is little better than educated guesses at best), still stand -- with eBay apparently demonstrating much of the "at worst" side of the statement with its poor attempts at recommendations.
[ edited by dc9a320 on Jun 4, 2001 02:18 PM ]
posted on June 4, 2001 02:17:23 PM
It is my understanding that this eBay recommendation SPAM is OPT-OUT first.
Once you have opted out... you will be offered every time you bid to Opt back IN.... and then if you opt-in, you will automatically receive the "Recommendations" until you think to OPT-OUT during the bidding process again.
I can't for the life of me figure out why they just didn't offer this as an option and let folks visit the PREFERENCES PAGE for an Opt-In if that is their desire.
Having a reminder window pop up to solicit SPAM for EVERY BID placed on eBay is a waste of BIDDERS time... and could interrupt their SNIPING activity. If SNIPERS are detained, Sellers miss out on valuable BIDS that drive the ending value of their items up beyond bargain basement steals.
But someone else posted in this thread about sellers wondering why the bidders haven't gone to other venues.... and how this could be our lucky day. I HOPE you're RIGHT about that. I hope Bidders realize that THEY are the next Targeted Audience eBay is after... and I hope many of them head over to www.sellyouritem.com for some SPAM FREE shopping.
