posted on June 4, 2001 02:44:15 PM new
Oh, I get it now. Yes, even a single opt-out is still an opt-out system, which though better than a no-option system, is still too annoying: I shouldn't have to figure out how to opt-out with every company I deal with (though I just discovered my bank is distributing some information to direct marketers that I now have to opt-out from, <grrr> ), much less have opt-out scattered on several different parts of any one site (and worse, to have some opt-out options from one part be outright ignored! ) such as at eBay.
Except for one single other occasion, eBay was and still is the only site I buy things at online, and that is largely because, in the past, it was one of the few places I felt I would not be walking through a land mine of direct marketing (junk mail, long and loophole-filled privacy statements, selling information to third parties, etc. ) to buy from. Obviously those days on eBay are long gone, and I only continue bidding out of sheer inertia, but even that is slowing with each mine I hit.
I've never looked at Amazon seriously, because they seem too flip with privacy, given their statements. I've been tempted by stuff on sale at Yahoo a few times, but the one time I went to sign on (about 10-15 months ago? ), I was confronted with (IIRC) a credit card verification thing, which I refuse to do anywhere (I don't fear the transmission of such information as much as the storage of such information, as many otherwise big companies don't always keep up so well with security bulletins).
Other sites just don't seem to have much on sale, and I realize it is chicken-and-egg, but I don't know what to say on that problem.
If someone can build a co-op or a portal where I can shop at peace, meaning I know I can buy things, and just get those things and maybe an ad or two extra in the box, without having to wonder if I'll be seeing additional junk (e)mail for weeks or years afterwards, that the seller will sell me something and not sell me out to direct marketers, and can build up enough things that can be found for sale, I'll start watching, and perhaps join as a buyer.
Until then, I'll be enjoying traveling to more and more offline antique stores, auctions, rummages, antique shows, and the occasional flea market. Turns out this is more fun -- a lot more fun -- than dealing with the increasingly annoying combination of eBay and spammers. It wasn't until eBay brought in that most offensive of direct marketers, DoubleClick, over a year ago, that I even started looking seriously at offline options -- so maybe I should be thanking eBay for first turning me on to collectibles, then later annoying me to the point of my looking for other sources!
[ Edited to eliminate unforeseen UBB. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Jun 4, 2001 02:45 PM ]
posted on June 4, 2001 02:57:10 PM new
"Opt-out" is the trend in "email marketing" these days, and it ain't going away.
Used to be with the Sanford Wallaces, ISP's were more than happy to terminate accounts. But with the eBays, and Verizons and other LARGE corporations, email complaints from people like us will be ignored, because the ISP's won't turn down the business.
Didn't direct marketing used to be the venue of get rich quick schemes, diet pills (NOT approved by the FDA), shady driveway sealer companies, and the like? Now large companies like Verizon Wireless call frequently selling their "service".
Serious legislative initiatives are needed to combat this onslaught of advertising. I suggest everyone take a look at cauce.org and email their legislators.
Saw an ad on a urinal the other day. Boy oh boy, did that ad make me want to buy ribs.
posted on June 4, 2001 03:10:31 PM new
Hi dc9 and Blanche...I was hoping you would notice that eBay now tacitly tells each bidder we will send you SPAM after each and every bid you make on eBay unless you specifically tell us not to each and every time you bid.
I have thought about this and I think that Recommendations is what eBay decided to roll out in lieu of the Personalization-Find-The-Same Items-fiasco from late last summer. It was a contract with a software company as I recall. I remember finding the site of the company last summer and reading about how it is designed to throw out pop up suggestions to buy "similar" items after you add an item to a shopping cart on retail sites. They called it upselling or something like that. For the life of me I can't remember the name of the company.
Anyway, I think that they must get paid by use, that is by the numbers of email recommendations they send, (like the Doubleclick "viewed ad" fee structure). This is the only thing that makes any sense to me as to why bidders must opt out after every bid. This outfit gets to send you SPAM unless you tell them otherwise, and therefore collect a fee for sending a bidder Recommendations. ( I would like to meet the salesman who sold eBay this turkey and got them to sign what must a an iron clad commitment to use the software in some way or other. Or if it isn't someone at eBay should have their butt in a sling for this stupidity.)
Now I don't know this to be fact, but I until I am advised of the real facts, or a more plausible explanation this is what I believe.
(I am not going to comment on the bizarre item associations it makes in the Recommendations, or the plethora of other horrible consequences of the Recommendations, (turning bidders off, the possibility that eBay plans to charge a FEE to have your auction come up first on a recommendations list, eBay collecting demographics on buying habits and selling the information, etc..)
posted on June 4, 2001 04:37:32 PM new
I am VERY, VERY unhapppy with this.Subj: Recommendation Email.
Date: 03/06/01 10:55:53 GMT Daylight Time
From: recommendation@ebay.
eBay sent this Recommendation Search email because you bid on an item. You can turn off the feature by selecting "No" after you place a bid. To learn more, click here: http://pages.ebay.com/search/items/recommendations_learnmore.html
Dear ,
Unfortunately, your bid did not win the following eBay item:
posted on June 4, 2001 04:59:32 PM new
Hey dc9, I'm glad you found your way to this thread and I just KNEW you would be thrilled about eBay's new marketing ploy.
Hello smw. Do you believe they're still pushing this garbage? The name of the company is Dynaptics. Here is the URL for their PSE program which eBay is using:
http://www.dynaptics.com/products/pse.html
My very favorite quote comes from the Computer Letter in an article aptly entitled LETS GET PERSONAL
Bolding is mine
QUOTE
"Though Dynaptics is promoting its technology as useful for traditional site personalization, it also sees an opportunity to enhance customers' explicit searching of a large Web site—what the company calls a "personal information e-ssistant," or PSE. It's working with eBay, for instance, to help that site's visitors sift through the thousands of auctions it runs and find interesting items they might not find otherwise. As a customer searches through a site, the Dynaptics program monitors not only the URLs and specific items he views, but also the free-form text that sellers publish about each item. The system is said to be able to identify "themes" by analyzing this text and attaching the appropriate themes to individual viewers. Manna also offers to compress the feedback loop closer to real time, using technology developed in Israel. Its software watches customers' behavior within a site, throws offers at them, and continually updates their individual profiles."
END QUOTE
http://www.dynaptics.com/newsevents/inthenews/inthenews_000710.html
I had no idea you had to OPT OUT or IN every single time you placed a bid. That will definitely keep me from bidding because I like to snipe and I don't allow a cookie either. You're right, this option should have been included on the user's preference page with the default set to OPT OUT. Of course, this wouldn't be beneficial to eBay's marketing strategy since most folks would not OPT IN but they could've corrected that by doing their old preference switcheroo thingy.
Well, I've had to stop selling on eBay because of the privacy issues and now I'm going to have to stop buying as well. What a shame.
posted on June 4, 2001 05:10:07 PM new
Did you catch the part on the Dynamix *(sic)site where they can tie Equifax profiles to your browsing?
Chilling. This type of invasive garbage is exactly why most internet users never buy anything there, and is exactly the thing that will KILL buying online.
posted on June 4, 2001 06:17:01 PM new
Well gee, isn't this peachy!! Just what I want, bidders to be sent a list of competitive bid. Has ebay ever heard of IMPULSE BUYING?
I am getting very tired of coming to this board and looking at the DAILY CHANGES EBAY is making.
It is getting ridiculous. I need to be spending my time shopping, scanning, etc. etc. not trying to keep up with the assault of changes they keep throwing our way.
posted on June 4, 2001 09:46:29 PM newBlanche and smw: Oh yeah, just say "spam" and I come flying in. But seriously, this is one of the most hare-brained, in-your-face spamming ideas I've seen, and I was startled by the sheer audacity of it all.
With most individual spams, even if you can figure out the real source, ISP-wise, you still don't necessarily know why you ended up on that company's mailing list. You have to read up and learn about spambots, spiders, and companies you buy from selling you out to direct marketers (DMs), or being tracked by companies like DoubleClick. With some companies, they're a little more direct, in that if you buy from them, you'll likely see an occasional email from them (if those were the only DM ads sent, and they were only occasional, even I wouldn't mind, but mixed in with the rest, they're just another part of the problem).
eBay is apparently going to be much more in bidders' faces, sending spam (and from what GreetingsfromUK showed, they're not the shortest spam either) right after an auction ends. Bold -- in a bad way.
yankee88champs: Most telemarketing is still about junk, IMO, but companies as big as MCI have been doing it for more than a decade -- but more have been slinking in the last five years, part of why I finally got ticked off at all direct marketing. I don't think the arrival of bigger companies in that arena has made telemarketing look any more respectable, however, because if anything, their greater monetary muscle has brought even more such calls to the average consumer. CallerID is great, but it still irks me that DMs have driven me to spend more money on my phone bill each month "just" to avoid calls I've always detested receiving in the first place! )
Actually, I sort of chuckle at the "urinads" (gee, did I just coin that? -- nah, too obvious), but don't mind. It's a blank wall, and they're not spending any of my time for me like the DMs do (i.e. I was going to be staring at that wall anyway). They're not DM, but more like billboards (which I don't mind much either, at least not when the scenery is otherwise dull and they're not too thick).
Yes, this stuff is becoming more common IMO too, thanks to so many dot-coms joining up with otherwise reviled companies such as DoubleClick.
So far, the "recommendations" completely betray what now almost appears to be thin hype by Dynaptics (are we talking the same company? -- thanks for the links, Blanche). I mean sure the system has to start with almost nothing, but a Ford ignition system and sewing magazines are pretty far from comics (not to mention the other examples). It could have at least tried suggesting a Superman video or Batman artwork -- though still a guess, it would have at least looked a lot closer.
If these sorts of silly suggestions are what eBay's going to start out sending to every bidder that doesn't notice the opt-out, there's going to be a lot of very surprised and annoyed bidders in the next few weeks.
posted on June 4, 2001 10:03:55 PM new
You know what eBay's recommendations are like? How about going to the flea market or antiques store, picking up a few items, looking at the price, putting them down, then having someone who's been watching you run up to you and trying to drag you to different booths to see a dozen unrelated (as per the "recommendations" currently made) things you probably won't care about. Or even closer, imagine an auctioneer doing this.
Metaphorically, the opt-out becomes a way of putting up your hand before that person says anything, but doesn't stop them from grabbing your wallet to see your ID ( = when you put in a bid), jotting down everything else you do, and trying to approach on subsequent occasions. How long would such tactics be tolerated offline?
Oh, BTW... though I of course don't really know, I'd bet that every bid is going to be profiled, regardless of whether someone hits the opt-out option (i.e. you may only be opting-out of the piece of spam itself, not the tracking behind it), just in case you miss hitting the opt-out some time.
Beyond that, the part about Equifax is just chilling indeed, yankee88champs. Why should companies be contacting the company that manages my credit information just to send me more DM junk? The big three credit bureaus have opt-outs, which is bad (in it is thus clear that they sell information about you to DMs) and good (at least you can tell them to stop).
Most people, if asked, would probably consider financial or pharmaceutical info to be personal enough to assume or expect companies to keep it private; but this is frequently no longer the case -- and much of the allowed and encouraged leakage is to DMs, for the sake of junk that apparently averages a 0.5% response rate (200 ads sent, only one gets a positive response in the form of interest).
The concern over online tracking is much greater than offline (though practices offline have been more visible and with every dot-com protest of how some actions online are old hat offline, drawing more attention to offline practices as well), and as I've mentioned in other threads, I wonder if this sort of intrusive nonsense has collectively cost dot-coms more in lost sales than it has generated.
I think I'll leave my .sig on this time; the first line has never seemed so appropriate.
And yes, DO check out CAUCE, Junkbusters, and others -- and read those "rights" statements your cable company or bank might be sending you.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on June 4, 2001 10:47:05 PM new
The thing that always gets me about direct marketers, and the eBay and Verizon types that use these procedures, is the blissful arrogance.
They always present themselves as doing us a favor. "We've got this great offer" "We've got this great service". They never come out and say what they REALLY want, just kind of "ass-u-me" you won't mind.
Whenever a phone marketer calls and says "Hello, Mr. XXXXX, How are you today" I get this feeling, kind of creepy feeling that they aren't interested in how I am, that instead they're going to waste my time trying to sell me something I don't want.
THAT's how I feel when eBay introduces a new "feature". If you can't come out and say what you're selling and SELL it, not just force it on me unless I tell you otherwise, it's probably not worth having.
Funny you mention .5% response rate. Only the direct marketing industry would inconvenience and waste 199 people's time to get one sale. Says something about what respect they have for the public, doesn't it?
posted on June 5, 2001 04:03:03 AM new
geez louise this is bad news. what are companies thinking with these days? in the past few weeks i've gotten 'privacy' notices from 3 credit cards and 1 from another financial institution. they were all 3 or 4-fold small brochures, done in 10 point type, very dense writing you had to wade through to get to the verrrrry end (last fold, tucked within the brochure) at last stating that this was really about selling your contact info to 3rd parties. and all of them were opt-out! had to write or call.
but as far as ebay and auctions go, having to opt-out when placing *each bid* is ridiculous! and as blanche noted, if this interferes with people sniping, that is VERY BAD NEWS!
i can just imagine the ebay ptb thinking, 'oh the sellers are going to love this - we're going to inform the bidders of their other auctions, and they won't have to do a thing!'
ok, so whom do we write to so we can voice our complaints with this in the most effective way? safeharbor? somewhere else?
posted on June 5, 2001 04:35:09 AM new
kittykittykitty: I was thinking about giving this thread another day or two and then forwarding the link to the PTB at eBay on my voices one eMail exchange.
But if you want to eMail directly to eBay in hopes that your comments will "trickle UP".... you could try eMailing one of the following:
Folks who are not happy about their customers being detained at the time of bidding with opt-out pop ups, and then spammed by eBay if they merely become underbidders, should certainly make every effort to help the folks at eBay to understand your displeasure.
This is an important issue that affects Sellers AND Bidders!
And to answer someones question in an earlier statement on this thread.... I believe the profiling continues (information about your eBay activity is gathered) whether you opt-in or not for the "recommendations" SPAM.
- Dottie
[ edited by dottie on Jun 5, 2001 04:36 AM ]
The following is from Wallpog's Log #13, the newsletter from wallypogsbog.bizland.com
DEALING WITH SPAM
Apparently the Federal Trade Commission wants to know what kind, how many and where spam originates, so forward spam to
[email protected]
If you can see the originating IP address of spam received, you may be
able to find out where it came from by doing a search through http://combat.uxn.com If you get results here, try forwarding the spam to the originating ISP with a carbon copy to [email protected]
posted on June 5, 2001 06:37:22 AM new
If you want to voice your displeasure over this feature, [email protected] has a thread on this subject on the Soapbox, which can be found here: Or, you can email him directly at the above email addy.
posted on June 5, 2001 06:52:12 AM new
Here's an example of SPAM at it's most...... tolerable???
Here at work, our fax machine is a never ending experiment in SPAM. Everyday our paper recycle bin receives on avarage, 8 sheets of wasted paper and toner. OUR paper and OUR toner that WE pay for. (already tried all the complaints and no sooner does one SPAMMER stop than another begins.)
Well, it seems that one of the more prolific SPAMMERS has a glitch in their AUTO-SPAM system. All of their SPAM comes through the fax machine completely blank, except for their return phone number at the top. (I know who it is because I matched the phone number with previous SPAM received when their system was working).
I have to smile now whenever I see one of those blank pages show up. It's like, O.K. if you're gonna SPAM me, I apparently can't stop you, but thanks for at least saving me some toner.
(not to mention that I would NEVER buy anything from any of these clowns)
posted on June 5, 2001 07:14:35 AM new
Hate the idea but love what it'll do to sales! Amazon has a similar opt-in email for their retail site that they send out based on your buying interests. It was fine the first week or three (I actually made some purchases based on the recs), but after months of getting that stupid email I TRASH it almost immediately! The novelty wears off quick but if it increases sales even 1/10th, I say go for it! Buyers aren't stupid. They know the email is driven by eBay and not sellers, or they should after reading eBay's disclaimer. If they play both the buyer and seller role on eBay as a lot do, they'll understand the purpose of it quick. Besides you can easily opt-out after a couple annoying emails if you want.
Me, although I hate Amazon's daily email recommendations, I've never cancelled. They just keep coming. I might be a glutton for punishment or maybe there's a fear I might miss out on something at some point so it's worth the second it takes to delete the email if I don't want to read it. They say information is power, and the lack of information is ignorance, so I figure a lot will keep the eBay recs coming. A simple unsolicited email isn't going to turn the buyers away from eBay unless they have some sort of mental problem.
posted on June 5, 2001 07:33:04 AM new
eSeller: What you are describing on Amazon is opt-in. On eBay it is *opt-out*. A bidder has to affirmatively tell eBay after each bid that they don't want the Recommendations email.
There is a big difference between choosing to receive the Recommendations and having to tell eBay after each bid that you *don't* want the Recommendations.
Heck, I didn't know that! Big difference but not a bad idea from eBay's vantage point. Buyers will become accustomed to opting in and opting out fairly quickly IMO. It'll soon be an effortless conditioned response. What is it, a little checkbox under the bid window? Will boost sales and eBay revenues although it will turn off some people. Maybe alot of people! But eBay is dealing with a CAPTIVE audience which they can prod and cajole any way they want. The buyers aren't going anywhere. Where's the alternative with the same size and selection??? You'll have to drag buyers off eBay kicking and screaming!
From what I'm reading on this thread people hate it, but sellers might have a change of heart when they realize sales are ramping up for some unknown reason.
posted on June 5, 2001 09:40:02 AM new
eSeller: It seems to me that this is a little more complicated than eBay simply adding another feature that can be ignored.
This feature raises a lot of credible issues for sellers, and for bidders too. Not least of which is that it is intrusive to the auctions of each and every seller who lists an auction on eBay by *design*.
eBay maintains that it is a venue and sellers pay for a service, that is to list auctions, period. eBay is steadfast in the position that it is not in any way a party to the auctions themselves, from listing, to bidding, to collecting payment, to shipping the item.
By collecting data as a bidder surfs around eBay and places a bid, and, (unless the bidder specifically tells eBay otherwise,) eBay then sending a list of recommendations for auctions by other sellers, eBay is insinuating itself into a specific auction by a specific seller. A case can be made that when a list of Recommendations is sent to a bidder, eBy is diluting the auction exposure a seller has paid to have, and that eBay is making itself a party to sales by making specific auction recommendations.
This raises the question of eBay collecting a fee for a service it is not providing as agreed to by eBay and the seller. As I understand it a seller pays eBay to list an auction on the site for a specific time period, and during that time frame eBay agrees to maintain the auction in its data base, and make it available for viewing in a specific category and through search.
It is my understanding that this is the extent to which eBay claims it is involved in an auction. I don't believe that the listing agreement between the seller and eBay includes terms that state that eBay may, at its discretion, direct bidders away from a specific sellers auctions, and to the auctions of another seller. Further if eBay directs bidders to specific auctions, eBay is by definition making itself a party to the sale and any consequences that the transaction may produce.
These are only examples of issues from a list that appears to be growing exponentially of the possible consequences of eBay sending Recommendations to bidders. There is also the overriding issue of collecting very specific data about both sellers and bidders. eBay has in the past few months disclaimed that it can not and will not guarantee that it won't sell or use this information.
By integrating this feature into the bidding process, and making it opt-out as opposed to opt-in, eBay has opened a Pandora's box. This is not another benign useless feature that eBay has introduced, and the issues are many and complicated.
Now, having said my piece, I am going out and plant a few rose bushes.........
posted on June 5, 2001 09:46:57 AM new
Red-Deer: Reed's statement is interesting. Perhaps he should direct the legal staff to the Dynaptics site to read Dynaptics PR touting how eBay is using Dynaptics software and/or services, and there is indeed a relationship.
posted on June 5, 2001 09:55:35 AM new
Hi Neil, that's very interesting because I have found articles that specifically state that eBay is a client of Dynaptics. Another observation I made was the fact that Dynaptics has changed their website since I first brought this up last August. They no longer have much pertinent info on their site about how their program works or who their clients are. There used to be a page that not only SHOWED eBay as a client but mentioned that their PIE program was designed SPECIFICALLY for eBay.
Me thinks Reed is mistaken. Take a look:
QUOTE
"The software makes educated guesses about visitors' interests based on the pages they visit. Shoppers are identified either through cookies, an attached registration ID or through a session ID assigned when they arrive at the site. The technology builds a database that remembers which offers have been best received over time based on different navigation paths, perpetually shifting the rules for which promotions are offered.
Site operators use a Web control panel to design promotions and decide which pages will contain HTTP tags for tracking users, selecting offers or posting offers. Each page can hold as many as three tags. The server software uses an XML interface to connect to those merchant tags, sending across offer text and graphics as HTML fragments.
While it measures what portion of site visitors click through the promotions they see, the Personal Shopping E.ssistant doesn't measure conversion rates. Vieth said Dynaptics hopes to add that capability down the line.
Dynaptics' second product, the Personal Information E.ssistant, is designed for auction or exchange sites. It includes the same control panel, analytical and systems management components as the Shopping E.ssistant, but is designed to recommend products to consumers based on the text in the pages they've visited.
Dynaptics designed the PIE "in concert with eBay," Vieth said, but he declined to specify whether the auction giant is a Dynaptics customer".
END QUOTE
http://www.internetweek.com/story/INW20000623S0007
QUOTE
"Though Dynaptics is promoting its technology as useful for traditional site personalization, it also sees an opportunity to enhance customers' explicit searching of a large Web site—what the company calls a "personal information e-ssistant," or PSE. It's working with eBay, for instance, to help that site's visitors sift through the thousands of auctions it runs and find interesting items they might not find otherwise. As a customer searches through a site, the Dynaptics program monitors not only the URLs and specific items he views, but also the free-form text that sellers publish about each item. The system is said to be able to identify "themes" by analyzing this text and attaching the appropriate themes to individual viewers. Manna also offers to compress the feedback loop closer to real time, using technology developed in Israel. Its software watches customers' behavior within a site, throws offers at them, and continually updates their individual profiles,"
END QUOTE
http://www.dynaptics.com/newsevents/inthenews/inthenews_000710.html
Whether eBay is using Dynaptics to monitor and analyse the data or doing it themselves, the software was developed by Dynaptics.
QUOTED from the first article:
"An unlimited server license for the Personal Shopping E.ssistant costs $75,000, plus an annual maintenance fee of $11,250. Or merchants can pay on a click-through basis that starts at $3,000 a month for 10,000 click-throughs.
The Personal Information E.ssistant is available for a $50,000 license, plus annual maintenance of $7,500, or optionally on a click-through basis starting at $2,250 a month.
END QUOTE
BTW, this is an embedded data mining program and is CLICK driven. I have to leave for the day but will check back this evening.
posted on June 5, 2001 10:02:28 AM new
Blanche: Your are right. I remember looking at the site last summer and having a virtual tour of what the software can do. I think the example they used was a sporting goods site? I remember golf clubs....
posted on June 5, 2001 10:04:06 AM newsmw, thanks for your eloquent and accurate summation. I couldn't have said it any better and I'm not even going to try.
posted on June 5, 2001 10:15:53 AM newNeil, I simply HAVE to turn off this computer now or I'm not going to get out of here and I NEED to get out of here!!
I'll head on over to those threaded boards when I get home. You're welcome to borrow any of the links I've used to try to knock some sense into old Reed. Thank God for Google's search engine and it's archives.
I'm beginning to wonder why eBay wants to hide their relationship with Dynaptics. Hmmm
Blanche
[ edited by bhearsch on Jun 5, 2001 10:24 AM ]
