posted on August 10, 2001 07:11:08 AM new
All those who buy on ebay raise your hands!
I think accepting Paypal does make a difference in the competitive markets. As a buyer, I prefer using Paypal. If I see a bunch of auctions for the identical item at once, whether or not the seller takes Paypal is one of the criteria I use for selecting the one I'm going to bid on. I'll pay with Billpoint if they've setup the auto-invoice. I'll pay with check if no credit card options are available. I'll pay with money order only if it's the only thing the seller offers. I'm sure I'm not the only buyer whose preferences run in this order.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:13:15 AM new
Now, for some actual figures, based on two items I list fairly regularly. (No, I did not know for sure what the results would be until I looked them up):
---------------------
Item 1:
Acceping PayPal:
Over a period of 15 months: 17 auctions, average closing price: $7.13
Not acceping PayPal:
Over a period of 14 months: 22 auctions, average closing price: $8.19
---------------------
Item 2:
Acceping PayPal:
Over a period of 15 months: 16 auctions, average closing price: $4.28
Not acceping PayPal:
Over a period of 14 months: 21 auctions, average closing price: $4.37
---------------------
I guess you can argue just about anything, but I really don't see how not accepting PayPal is hurting me.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:17:01 AM new
I'm also a buyer, and I could care less what form of payment the seller offers. The ONLY auctions I will NOT bid on, are ones where the seller accepts PP only, which fortunately are few & far between.
In todays world of online fraud, my ONLY concerns are that the seller has solid feedback, and that my item arrives safe & sound exactly as it was described.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:21:51 AM new
Thanks for the numbers Mr.P
My biggest beef with PP threads like this is the "blanket" statements that get posted.
The "if you don't take PP you're doomed" comments make me laugh.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:23:14 AM new
As a buyer, my order of preference is:
1. Condition of item.
2. Price of item.
and maybe...
3. Seller's record.
That's about it. I don't really much care how they want their payment- if they have what I'm looking for, I'll get them their money however they'd like it. Check, money order, PayPal- it's all the same to me.
Of course, the above numbers don't necessarily prove that all the items I've sold would show the same trend, but I'm more willing to believe they wouldn't be too far off than I am to accept a general argument based on what seems "logical".
With any "store" having as many and varied items for sale as eBay does, one shouldn't make a blanket statement about how things work. This whole discussion (as with many others here) comes down to this:
posted on August 10, 2001 07:31:45 AM new
zoomin - your record is very impressive - I would think that is more due to your excellent products, customer service, etc than your payment methods accepted.
I only have a feedback of 436 - but I have received over 1500 positive feedbacks - 71.2% of my feedback is from return customers. I'm a Paypal Preferred seller, but I continue to offer Billpoint, Bidpay, and Paydirect in my EOA notices in addition to Paypal. I also have many many comments about my fast shipping and excellent communications (no 3rd party EOA notices for me).
As a test I've listed identical auctions on two separate IDs - adding Billpoint did nothing for me as far as # of bids/sales...
I firmly believe the #1 attraction for bidders/buyers is the PRODUCT not the payment method...., with #2 being the quality of the seller.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:38:34 AM new
Thanks kiawok!
It'll be a while before I get excited about my star color changing ~ it's a big jump from 1000 to 5000!
okay, I'll admit it, I sell girly clothes! I sell Dudes duds, too!
I cater to the immediate gratification market . If I don't receive pmt within 14 days, odds are I'm getting stiffed.
Electronic payments suit me just fine ~ be in PP or BP, I'll take it.
It is my understanding that in your market (antiques) you are doomed if you don't take personal checks, and the checks you receive are good.
In my categories, too many of the checks are written on rubber. No fun.
It sure would be nice if someone could come up with a formula to guarantee the highest bids possible
Til then I'll just keep pluggin away....
add:
thanks, katiyana!
Your record is impressive, too!
Amazing how bidders come back when you take care of them!
I think we are lucky to have found some of the best bidders on the Bay ~ makes the morons easier to handle when they are few and far between!
posted on August 10, 2001 07:46:36 AM newIt is my understanding that in your market (antiques) you are doomed if you don't take personal checks,and the checks you receive are good.
Yup, that seems to be the case. Only one NSF in 4 years, and the buyer made good on it within the week.
I know sellers in other categories [toys & comic books] that have had so many NSF checks they couldn't afford to keep accepting them. [$25 bank fees] so I certainly understand why some sellers will no longer accept personal checks.
posted on August 10, 2001 07:57:26 AM newOnly one NSF in 4 years, and the buyer made good on it within the week.
My experience is nearly the same- only one NSF, and the buyer emailed me to let me know about it before I found out from my bank. It took a couple of emails to convince him that he could just send me another check- that he didn't have to get a money order.
I wouldn't trade the category I sell in for anything- the buyers are the best.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:04:53 AM new
I think what the original poster reported is a seasonal August slump having nothing to do with forms of payment.
I dropped Paypal quite a while ago, took no credit cards for a while, then added Billpoint. No change in my sales throughout this period.
However, the past couple weeks have been my worst ever (50% sell-through on newly listed items, down from my usual 70%; re-lists of unsold items around 25%, down from 30%).
posted on August 10, 2001 08:33:07 AM new
I find the responses very interesting. I must clarify the 4 auction ending days though, just to keep things clear. These were 4 separate listings of 30 items, using 7 day auctions, so this is spanning 120 items, and 28 days. It seems with my numbers that ended up, that everyone decided to pack up and take off for those 28 days, which could be the case. I sell household things, 99% of the items being new. I have never had auctions close with so many hits and no bids, ever. My auctions are clean looking, good pics, simple TOS, I accept personal checks, cashiers checks, money orders, PayPal, and bidpay. I did not have PayPal logos in these auctions, nor advertised them in my auctions, but did say in the EOA'S PayPal would be accepted as I stated. I checked with 2 of my major competitors with the same items, who had almost non existant descriptions, and blah pics and no color to their ads. I do not understand how they can send a package Priority Mail that weighs 8# for $4.65, so maybe they are taking it on the chin for shipping, just to build up their numbers. No, he does not get them for less. We shop at most of the same suppliers, as we see one another often, very friendly, but the same prices. His only difference is the PP logo in his auctions, where I had dropped mine. I am not a Power Seller, nor deal in Antiques and Collectables, which does not put me immediatly in the poor relative column because I don't have the big logo nor sell something that by just by the wording assume "big money" being antiques and collectables. I ship fast, and my packing is anal, and my feedback reflects praise for packing, and speed of service, plus excellent customer service. I treat every single customer like they are my only customer. Would this put me in the class as a hobby seller because I am not a Power Seller? Hardly. I do not do this because I need a hobby. I do this, as does everyone else, to make money, if I sell one item a week or 1,000. I don't like fees. Who does? I have had a merchant account, and those fees are even crazier. I do my own templates, and my payouts are to a photo hosting company on the net which is $5.00 a month. My other fees are just to PP and Ebay. That's enough. I find raising my opening bid, to answer another question, and adding a handling fee, defrays most of the costs, even though PayPal takes theirs off the top, which includes the shipping of which they take their portion. It does even out though on the wonderful times I buy something for $3.00 and the ending bid war price zooms to $65.00, which I am happy to say, happens genrally, at least 5 times a month. For me, that's great! Love the opinions here. Thanks!
posted on August 10, 2001 08:46:15 AM newAll those who buy on ebay raise your hands!
During the summer months I buy almost daily. Of course the item I want and the seller's reputation is most important to me.
I usually pay by check, money order or cash. If I or my customer needs the item in a hurry I use Billpoint. I have never used PayPal and have never found an item I wanted where the payment was restricted to PayPal only.
When I sell I offer Billpoint but most customers use a check, money orders are 2nd, Billpoint 3rd, followed by cash.
Interesting but our antiques & collectibles auctions receive less Billpoint payments than our giftware items. Many of them are paid for by Billpoint and requests for PayPal which we don't offer. So our experience is that it depends on what we sell.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:50:01 AM newWould this put me in the class as a hobby seller because I am not a Power Seller?
Ok, perhaps I shouldn't have used the dreaded PS words?
FYI - I have never used the logo in my auctions, nor will I.
BUT .......
When I sit here & read blanket statements concerning what will work best for ME, and MY merchandise, and I know damn well the person that just made the statement is a part time hobby seller, I will indeed call them on it.
IMO the data on 10 sales per month versus 110 is significant in a discussion such a PP sales, versus non PP sales. If I offended anyone, I apologize, that wasn't my intention.
I have never attempted to tell anyone what the best payment TOS is for THEM, nor would I, and I've yet to see any of the pro PayPal crowd post any hard data on bids/ending prices that prove their assumption that PP will increase bids/final ending prices.
I've been watching the eBay CC sales market closely for the past year, and I've yet to see any proof that offering PayPal/Billpoint will increase bids, or more importantly, final ending prices.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:53:50 AM new
I dropped paypal from my ads right after the fee hike(early summer). But I was offering it in my EOA notice to the higher bid items.
I plan on putting it back in my auctions when I gear up for xmas sales. I've been saving the best stuff for that.
With the higher dollar stuff going on it won't be so bad paying their fee increase.
The killer for me is when something sells for $1 to $5 and they wanted to use paypal.
I have a merchant account also(%5 flat rate) that I will be re-instating for my xmas sales.
I want to offer every form of payment possible.
We can't possibly know how at any givin time a buyer wants to pay. I don't want anyone to feel left out.
posted on August 10, 2001 09:05:47 AM new
I still have yet to see someone post how PayPal draws more viewers to your item. It does not show up on the search screen. I would think the item at the current lowest bid will draw the most views. Of course, whether the viewer bids or not is another matter.
But, if you charge a fee to cover PayPal or Billpoint, in theory, you need to start your item at a slightly higher bid then a seller who does not have such a fee. Thus, if someone does a search and rank by lowest current price, the other seller will come up first before you on the search results. It is possible that using PayPal is causing you to have less views.
In reality, it is almost impossible to measure the effect of having online payment options on sucess of selling. Best thing to do is have your own survey. Ask a buyer if having PayPal on your auction help you or not in getting a bid from the buyer. Run two items at the same time, one with PayPal and one without. Check the counters and see if it makes any difference. Try it with items in different categories.
Regarding BidPay - unless you sell internationally, you will not see many BidPay. You will rarely ever get one for Canada as they have numerous options cheaper then BidPay. However, overseas will be more BidPay then PayPal. Also, you will tend to get BidPay for the larger transaction.
By the way, I don't think anyone is attacking anyone in this thread. Just a lot of food for thought.
posted on August 10, 2001 09:15:39 AM newIf you've actually done a 33% Billpoint credit card sales rate, you are the exception... and not the rule.
Without accurate statistics (and not just the ancedotal figures we have from different posts here on AW), we have no way of truely knowing whether my ratio of billpoint to paypal is the exception or the rule. Therefore, the statement quoted above is nothing more than a conclusion based on an assumption.
Plus the ratio will probably be influenced by the presentation...ie., does the seller promote one type of method over another in the auction listings? Does the seller offer "instant pay"?
I had a customer recently who paid as soon as the auction was over with billpoint's instant pay feature. A couple of hours later I sent the end of auction email (I missed that he had paid already). The customer responded to my EOA and expressed their disapointment that they didn't know until I sent the EOA that I accepted paypal as they would have preferred to pay that way (they had money in their paypal account). They noted that the auction only mentioned billpoint.
I concluded several things from this...1)it is the item and not the payment method that gets the buyer to bid...and 2)it depends on which service you "push" as to which service the customer uses.
Since Billpoint is directly tied to eBay, it's not a widely accepted payment tool for anything else other then eBay.
Again, we don't have the statistics on this so the statement is just an assumption.
Billpoint is useable at other sites, including seller's websites. A seller can send a "general" invoice that is not tied to an auction number. I've done it several times with sales of auction items that did not sell on ebay.
It's not that I don't want customers to use Billpoint, it's just that they prefer Paypal.
If you were to push billpoint over paypal, you might find they prefer billpoint. It may be that the customer doesn't "prefer" either but instead goes with the service they percieve the seller prefers...or the first one the seller mentions.
You could conclude that when you took paypal out, many of those who prefer to use it no longer bid on your auctions
Yes, one could conclude that...but there is no proof of it. From the response I got from the customer I mentioned above, I would conclude that your statement is probably not true.
In my personal experience, the fact that my sales have not changed since I took paypal out of my auctions tends to leads me to conclude that the seller's credit card service choice, as long as that choice has no cost effect on the buyer, normally has no bearing on whether a buyer will bid on a specific auction.
Many buyers are also sellers so they know that the seller may have to wait a week or more to get their money from BillPoint. Higher fees, 1 week float, deposit fee - BillPoint just plain blows
Again, from my personal experience only...billpoint payments are normally in my checking acount within 24-48 hours from the time the customer pays while paypal transfers take 48-72 hours from the time I request the transfer. (both of these time frames get a little longer when the payment/transfer occurs on the weekend).
My personal situation...I have a merchant account with billpoint...the difference in fees between the two (including billpoints 0.5% bank transfer fee) is so miniscule that it isn't worth considering. IMO, both of these services are equal in regards to fees.
IMO, what matters is giving the customer a choice of payment methods, including some kind of credit card payment method that doesn't cost the customer and is easy to use...paypal and billpoint fill this requirement. Limiting yourself to money order only, or long holds on checks, or no ability for the customer to use a credit card, do more to lower the pool of buyers for one's auctions than offering or not offering paypal.
Also...not selling internationally is a handicap in my opinion.
posted on August 10, 2001 09:30:33 AM new
commentary,
I would come up in the "lowest price search" as all my auctions start at $1 NR and I don't have ANY hidden fees to cover my PayPap, Billpoint expenses.
I sell vintage/collectable and I try to realize enough of a profit from my stuff so as to make the CC fees not that noticable.
However...I have had stuff close at a $1 and when they want to use on-line services to pay it is a real killer.
As far as statics go. Really, why does it matter?
Your on eBay to sell and to get the best sale through:
1.) Good Pictures
2.) Good Description
3.) Good TOS (state shipping cost in auction when possible) if its to heavy give weight and zipcode(I have a link to UPS rates)
4.) Good reputation for careful packing and timely shipping(feedback should show that whether you have a 100 or 1000)
5.) Every form of payment possible. Being CC(paypal,billpoint,merchant ~ those seem to be the main ones), Personal Checks, Money Order, BidPay.
Were here to sell so lets sell!
I also buy...I will alway look for PayPal acceptance. Its funny to because I may find the same thing for a $1 or 2 less that DOES NOT take paypal and I will always opt to pay more for the convenience to pay by paypal or billpoint. I feel that seller who use to many restrictions for payment are really losing out.
I guess it depends on what you are buying for. If you are buying for resale, then I think PayPal does not matter. I tend to buy all I can find if I think I can resell for a reasonable profit. Does not matter if the seller have any online payment methods.
Also, if buying for resale, I tend not to pay with PayPal. I perfer to have a paid check as a business record. Not sure how IRS views PayPal records. Don't forget, there are no hard copies sent from PayPal. And online printouts can be so easily doctor that I am not sure if the IRS will accept them as proof of a transaction. And the proof will be even more difficult if you are paying with existing PayPal funds gather in from sales. No record on any of your credit card or bank statements. Until there is a more info on that subject, I do not pay with PayPal for business purchases.
I always wonder what percentage of ebay sales are due to dealers buying for resale.
posted on August 10, 2001 12:30:15 PM new
As a buyer, I prefer to use PayPal. It's fast and easy. I'm not interested in signing up with any other online payment methods, in my opinion, PayPal is the big kahuna, and should be sufficient.
It's funny to me when sellers comment on how they hate being paid through PayPal for small purchases. As a buyer, I don't know about the fees the sellers pay, and I don't really care. So when I pay you for a small ticket item by PayPal, I'm not doing it to choke you with fees, but because I don't know better, and even if I did, wouldn't care much.
If I have a choice between sending a money order (which the post office & bank charge ME fees to buy), or sending a cheque (most sellers do hold cheques), or paying through PayPal, where I pay no fees, and it happens almost instantly, I will choose PayPal. It's a no-brainer.
posted on August 10, 2001 02:57:51 PM new
I've had two buyers this month e-mail me for alternate payment methods. They say they're trying to stop using PayPal.
The vast majority of my buyers are using Billpoint and checks now. My PayPal receipts have fallen so low, I'm about to lose my merchant account rate. (Of course, that's when I stop accepting it altogether.)
As Mrpotatohead says, it's partly due to what I sell. I get a lot of eBay newbies in addition to my regular customers.
Newbies don't know about PayPal and they're more than happy to pay whatever way I tell them to pay.
Paypal has taken away all of the freebies, raised fees and basically eliminated the $5.00 new user benefits from the sellers, at the same time eBay/Billpoint has ran contests to entice both buyers and sellers. Since Billpoint is the standard within the eBay auction listing, it would be the first thing a potential buyer sees.
Look at the numbers...
Run a search for "gold power seller" see the ratio between Billpoint/Paypal the answer is clear.
amy says "Billpoint is useable at other sites"
OK amy... Show me 1/ONE/ONO/Single (just one) site where Billpoint is the payment service of choice and at the same time has nothing to do with eBay or auctions?
Furthermore, look at billpoint.com and show me where to register to offer their payment service without it having something to do with eBay? All of which clearly backs my "department store" theory.
One of my functions as a successful seller is to offer flexible payment options. Billpoint is an option, but not the option of choice for most credit buyers.
I could really care less which service the customer uses as long as I get paid. But, if it was a choice between the two... Paypal will win hands down.
As far as those who think accepting credit cards is meaningless to their bottom line?
Fraud is such a small part of the overall make-up of transactions it don't and won't deter enough to matter.
Harris Survey 1999: Credit card customers buy 2.5 times more merchandise than customers who pay cash or check. Credit card payment plans make larger purchases easier on customers. Credit cards merchants achieve higher unit sales and additional orders. 84% of Amazon.com customer orders are done through electronic payment methods.
posted on August 10, 2001 03:54:24 PM newHarris Survey 1999: Credit card customers buy 2.5 times more merchandise than customers who pay cash or check.
Perhaps MY customers aren't impulsive, spend beyond their limits, CC users? I'll ask Harris next time we do lunch.
posted on August 10, 2001 04:58:25 PM new
I sell worldwide. I get paid in USA Cash, Pay Pal, Bill Point and on large sales I have taken non USA Money. (Buyer pays bank transaction). I take whatever works for the serious buyer. Under the right conditions I will take USA Mint Postage. The key is while keeping an eye on the profit line, being flexible.
posted on August 10, 2001 08:05:21 PM new
The Harris poll is not a poll of solely collectors. When it comes down to serious collecting, the credit card does not matter.
If you are selling mass produce merchandise, maybe the credit card is a big deal. But with true collectibles, you are not going to focus in payment methods. You just want the item.
It is clear neither side will convince the other side. But, at least some interesting perceptions.
Question, if you truly believe PayPal is that important, is it illegal to put the word "PayPal" in your auction title?
posted on August 10, 2001 09:28:45 PM new
Contrary to the interpretation of my earlier post, I don't think there is anything wrong with sellers choosing not to accept CC payments. And there may, indeed, be sellers whose merchandise attracts bidders who either don't have a preference or prefer to use checks or money orders. I don't think NOT taking Pay Pal or Billpoint makes you a bad person or a bad seller.
I still submit that in the overall eBay picture, there are enough people who want to pay with credit cards for various reasons...one because they don't have the cash or two because they like the little bit of control they feel they retain by paying with a credit card or, of course, the convenience.
There are people who will pay with cash if they have to, but if given a choice would prefer a credit card. This obviously can have an impact in categories (including antiques and collectibles) where the bidder might have 10 similar items to choose from. Unless you are selling something truly rare or hard-to-find, refusing credit cards DOES reduce the pool of possible buyers for your items. You can do all the unscientific surveys you want and post the unscientific results of those unscientific surveys but simple economics dictates that limiting the number of potential buyers GENERALLY results in lower prices.
Finally, I firmly believe in my most humble opinion that electronic payments will become more and more the standard in the next few years and as buyers get more sophisticated and realize THEY are shelling out fees for the privilege of purchasing your item the clamor for electronic payment methods will get louder and louder. No buyer in his right mind is going to stand in line at the post office or wherever to pay 50cents-$1 for a money order, slap it in a 10-cent envelope, slap on a 34-cent (40 by then?) stamp and put it in the mail when they can click a couple of buttons on the computer and have it all done for them.
Gerald
"Oh but it's so hard to live by the rules/I never could and still never do."
. If I don't receive pmt within 14 days, odds are I'm getting stiffed.
