posted on December 7, 2000 06:14:26 PM new
HCQ - I re-read your last post on page one of this thread. If as you say in Florida they routinely have motor checks and the like. You don't find it strange that such checks would be scheduled for election day? I find that alarming. Now on your contention about the votes just being placed in box to be counted. Well I guess they don't mark those boxes to ascertain what district/precinct they came from.
Let's don't pretend that it isn't possible to happen. Now I would hope that the ballot boxes are kept seperate by precinct/district/ward or whatever you call them in Florida. If they don't keep them seperate how could they possibly count the votes for the local city stuff like Councilmen, mayor, State Representative, State Senator and what not. Trust me they know what vote came from where. Will they release that information and how do you get access to it is the question.
Now to answer your question because this isn't about race. This about the systematic failure to count votes for whatever reason. Let's suppose that all 9,000 protested ballots come from African American precincts. That has not been clearly ascertained where the majority of the 9000 ballots come from. I am sure it is known by somebody where they come from. But do we want to make this election in Florida about the disenfranchisement of voters or do we want to make this case about the disenfranchisement of Black Voters in Florida.
I prefer making it about voters without the racial attachments. With racial attachments it becomes a SERIOUS ISSUE with implications that exceed just choosing a President. Do you want to be affliated with the party that with the racial slant turns out to be the party that litigated to disenfranchise Black Votes because you know they aren't for you? Or do you prefer to keep it just voters. We are just healing from LA Riots and OJ. We don't need another one with such serious implications. I salute Gore and his legal team for not making it racial in the litigation. The country needs a President. It doesn't need a two fold controversey of choosing a president and resolving election issues that takes us back to Jim Crow Days.
And the Republican Party doesn't need it either. I don't want it to go that way even if it proves to be true. Just count the damn votes. Now your defense of the process in Florida scares me about you. I said this earlier and I guess you couldn't clarify this. You mean to tell me that in a Major Metropolitan Area like Miami-Dade your precints don't have precinct maps so you can help a voter find their proper polling place? You mean to tell me that an election judge can just say that a signature doesn't match and contest the right of a person to vote? Now if that isn't Jim Crow I don't know what is. I have a cousin that lives in the Tampa area. I hope to get up to see her and her family before leaving Florida. This entire Florida matter and the Republican stance on it scares me even more about the agenda of the party as it looks towards the high court. And some of the stuff here scares me even more.
posted on December 7, 2000 06:27:17 PM new
Yes, Hosea Williams was a bit of a character, in the best tradition of Georgia politicians, we sure have had our share.
I can't quite remember if there was some other talk about something he'd might've done wrong... something connected to his business maybe... (it was an industrial janotorial supply service or something...)
That would've been around the time of the Forsyth county stuff, so who's to say what, if anything, anyone was intimating about Williams was true.
posted on December 7, 2000 07:11:48 PM new
Okay, one by one:
You don't find it strange that such checks would be scheduled for election day?
They happen all the time. I'm not about to infer a causal relationship between any 2 events without some pretty serious evidence, particularly when event A has occurred independent of event B in the past, and wen (for example) other reasons could account for event A.
Now on your contention about the votes just being placed in box to be counted.
Actually, each voter places HIS OWN ballot in the box. As our county uses the "reader" system, we actually feed the ballot face down through some sort of electronic gadget, which then drops the ballot into the box below.
Well I guess they don't mark those boxes to ascertain what district/precinct they came from....Now I would hope that the ballot boxes are kept seperate by precinct/district/ward or whatever you call them in Florida. If they don't keep them seperate how could they possibly count the votes for the local city stuff like Councilmen, mayor, State Representative, State Senator and what not. Trust me they know what vote came from where.
I never disputed that "they know what vote came from where." And of course the precinct boxes are labeled, although that has nothing to do with being able to "count the votes," since FL law requires the votes to be counted at each precinct before being turned over to the county board.
From what I can tell from FL law, after the polls close, the ballot boxes are opened at each precinct "in the presence of the public desiring to witness the canvass". First they count the ballots and compare that number with the number in the poll list and the count of the election stubs (which in our county's case, if I recall correctly are OCR strips detached from the ballot and fed into a counter as the voter puts his ballot into the ballot box). The votes are then tabulated, and a form with the results is submitted to the county canvassing board. A copy of the results also goes to "the county court judge" and is included with the ballots in a box "sealed by the [precinct] inspectors" and is sent to the county canvassing board.
Will they release that information and how do you get access to it is the question.
Election night, local news reported counts by precincts as they came in, so clearly this is public information that already HAS been released, but I haven't found it online yet Here's the state data, which you can pull up by county as well:
Let's don't pretend that it isn't possible to happen.
Please define which "it" you're referring to.
Let's suppose that all 9,000 protested ballots come from African American precincts. That has not been clearly ascertained where the majority of the 9000 ballots come from. I am sure it is known by somebody where they come from.
Yes, and I guess we'd have to know that - and if these ballots were "thrown out" for reasons of race as has been alleged - before we could begin to jump at a conclusion, wouldn't we?
edited to add: chococake, I just read your post. If you are actually surprised that "so many irregularities happen in one state", I'm assuming you've been living in a vacuum for most of your voting life, or clearly never spent time in, say, Kennedy's Massachusetts. This is the norm - elections are run by humans, after all. The only time a problem shows up is in a very, very close race - which doesn't happen very often anywhere.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Dec 7, 2000 07:18 PM ]
posted on December 7, 2000 07:53:19 PM new
HCQ - Well said and if Florida actually works like that. Answer me this how and where do Judges of Elections come from at the precinct level. If the votes as you say are counted at the precinct level. Why can't the machine kicked ballots have been hand counted by the Judges election night? Or is their specific language under Florida Law that says only a machine can count the ballots. Haven't seen that anywhere in the Statues, and still haven't gotten an answer about the Precinct Judge question. So maybe you can help me.
Like I said earlier if these uncounted votes come from casual ignorance and not what I feel is correctable error. The bags will be packed and I'm off to Tampa then back to the snow in Chicago. But if these uncounted votes come from irregularities the check book is open for the NAACP court challenges. Like I've said before I can accept a Bush presidency I see a lot of potential in it from a party benefit perspective. Which is why I don't agree with the Florida Legislature doing what they propose to do. I am already figuring on capitalizing on it when they do it however.
posted on December 8, 2000 06:31:48 AM new
Not sure what you mean by "Judges of Elections," but if you mean the folks that count the ballots at the precinct, a/k/a clerks and inspectors, they are employed by that county's Supervisor of Elections (an elected official herself). With a few exceptions, two "boards" of inspectors and clerks are appointed per precinct. No board can consist of members of only one party. Clerks and inspectors have to be registered voters in (i.e., residents of) that county, be able to read and write English, lift 40lbs, and be available for the entire anticipated 13-day workday, for which they're paid $80-100. All have to go through a training program, for which they receive a certificate.
I'm guessing that your concern about these pollworkers, which you call election or precinct "judges", is that they could turn people away from the polls based on their signature. As you can see from FL law, although an inspector can issue a written challenge to ANY voter, if the voter then executes the aforementioned affidavit, s/he still gets to vote.
As to the counting of the ballots themselves, here's the pertinent FL law:
By my reading, when the polls close, the board "secure[s] the voting devices against further voting", and then, depending on the county supervisor's instructions, either:
(a) opens the boxes and counts "the number of voted ballots, unused ballots, and spoiled ballots", and compares that with the number of ballots actually issued to voters. Any difference has to be reported to the canvassing board, "with the reasons therefor if known." OR
(b) seals up the boxes, totes up those ballot stubs I mentioned earlier to see how many ballots were voted, certifies that number, puts everything in containers which it seals, and sends everything on to "a central or regional counting location" via "two inspectors who shall not, whenever possible, be of the same political party." The regional center is supervised by a canvassing board member or designee.
Wherever the counting is done, it's done by machine. If a ballot gets spit out by the counter, either a copy's made of it in the presence of witnesses which is identified as a duplicate, and the duplicate's sent through the counter, OR the ballot is sent on to the canvassing board for manual counting.
I don't find any provision for manual counting of any votes at the precinct level.
Edited to add:
I also don't find any requirement that precinct maps be posted in each polling place.
stusi: You said that you heard that the "new law" stated that if your signature on the voter registration card matched the one on the registration ledger that you just had to sign an affidavit to be able to vote. when i got there i was asked for a picture i.d., so i asked what would happen if i didn't have one. i was told that i would not be allowed to vote!"
Actually, what you heard on the radio wasn't quite correct.
There are two forms of "registration ledgers" - a/k/a precint registers. One contains the name and address and VIN of the voter. The other also contains a copy of the voter's signature. According to Florida law, If the register contains copies of the voters' signatures, the voter just signs a little affidavit and then the clerk compares that signature with the signature printed in the register. If there's no such signature copies in the register, the voter signs a similar affidavit and produces a photo ID so that the clerk can compare THOSE signatures.
From what you report the clerk telling you, my guess is that your precinct didn't have printed signatures in its register.
Here's the statute (you need to click on the enclosed links to get the whole picture):
posted on December 9, 2000 04:38:21 AM new
HCQ - I guess you guys in Florida call it something different in Florida. Because the people I am in Tallahasse with right now looked at me the same way when I inquired about an Election Judge.
Your election clerks and inspectors are what I know as an Election Judge. Very noticable differences though. In Illinois the number of Judges at a precinct is determined by the number of registered voters in the precinct. Every precinct has at least two, One Republican and One Democrat.
Now your statement about requirement of a precinct map. Sounds the same as when a corporation makes a product with a slight flaw and then when sued falls behind the defense we aren't required to have that. That is one aspect of typical joe thought that has always scared me. The attitude that if the law doesn't say it I don't have to do it until it does.
We don't have to have precinct maps in Illinois or Chicago. But we do because we realize that in a very large area. The precincts overlap. It is possible to live next door to a polling place. And that polling place not be your polling place. To help voters; we have maps that allow the Judges/precinct captains help the voter locate their respective polling place.
Where I vote, I worked with the local Aldermen and the Election Board. To relocate all five precincts that bound this area into one easily accessible to all location. We moved them to the local school gymnasium. Which used to house one precinct, but every year voters came there to vote because it made sense to them to come there or that's where they went where they used to live.
Well that cost me a little money because the other four locations all had contracts with the election board to be the voting location. I bought out their contracts. Now we just point the voters to the right corner of the Gymnasium.
posted on December 9, 2000 05:11:02 AM newNetworker67
In a heavily populated area it possible for four or more precints to overlap. But traditionally most Americans in urban areas vote close to home.
I would respectfully have to mention that this is not always true. In 1995, I moved to a new house just about a mile away from my previous house. Unknown to me, I crossed some boundary (sorry, I really don't remember anymore). Anyway, in 1996 I went to vote. Normal polling place wouldn't let me vote since I was no longer in that district - I had to go to second place. Second place was closed, someone standing around suggested I go to third place. Third place was open but wasn't for me. I had to go to fourth place. I get there - Yup, the right place (finally!!). Unfortunately, I still couldn't vote because my address hadn't been updated or something. The people were very nice, they spent probably 30 minutes on the phone trying to work it out so that I could vote but no go.
All these places were within 6 miles of my house. There are at least three additional ones within that same distance (for a total of at least 7 polling places within 6 miles of my house).
I live in a rural area (town of 5,000) in South Carolina. So I'm sure that it's very possible for someone in an urban area to have multiple polling stations relatively close to them.
(Oops, can't count myself <grin>. If the second place was closed, that makes only at least six polling places that I know of within 6 miles of my house, not 7.)
[ edited by barbarake on Dec 9, 2000 05:15 AM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 05:43:04 AM new
barbicake - Huh that's what I said. But at essence is the missing Pecinct Mas to tell a voter exactl where they should go. Heck the more I converse and with others since this issue began. The more I am glad I live in Illinois. Now if they could something about the winters this place would be perfect.
posted on December 9, 2000 10:01:38 AM new
I don't think you quite get it, nw67, and I think you're confusing what we're talking about with county canvassing boards. What we're dealing with is a subset of the canvassing board, called an "election board".
FL statute requires two "election boards" per precinct, but if there are more than 1,000 voters in the precinct, more than one board may be appointed; and if there's fewer than 300 voters, only 1 board is necessary. So population DOES control how many boards are appointed.
Now, each election board is headed by a "clerk", who supervises the board's "inspectors" (those are the actual pollworkers). No precise number of "inspectors" and "clerks" is specified, although since the statute notes that precincts with fewer than 300 voters should have "at least one inspector and one clerk," we can infer that the average 1,000-voter board consists of about 6 "inspectors" and "clerks". The statute also notes that "[n]o election board shall be composed solely of members of one political party."
With two such boards being required per precinct, Florida appears to require considerably more than Chicago's, which is not quite the "One Republican and One Democrat" that you state, but 5 total (either 3 Republicans and 2 Democrats or the reverse, depending on whether the precinct number is even or odd).
Chicago's Board of Elections website shows another interesting difference. In your town, by law, it's the party chairmen who nominate precinct workerks for jobs "for their respective political party". (Can you say "machine"?) Down here, you don't need a party connection.
The reasoning in your analogy regarding precinct maps is also faulty. This is not a matter of product liability or misrepresentation. Any voter can phone the election board to ascertain his own precinct.
You should also know that, in comparing Cook County/Chicago and Florida in general, you are comparing apples and oranges.
Let's look at Florida and Illinois as a whole first. They have comparable total populations. Aside from Broward, Palm Beach, and Miami-Dade, the average population of Florida's remaining 62 Florida counties - not cities, but counties - is less than 175,000. Since about 40% of Florida's population voted in the last election, that's about 70,000 voters per county average. Aside from Cook County, the average population of Illinois's remaining 98 counties is about 70,000, or about 28,000 voters per county. (It should be noted that this average is skewed upwards, and that both Florida and Illinois have a HUGE number of counties whose population is less than 20,000 (and whose registered voter totals are thus less than 8,000)).
Cook County/Chicago, OTOH, had nearly ONE MILLION votes cast in the last election. Not only is that more than every other county in Illinois and Florida; it's also nearly TWICE that of Miami-Dade, Florida's most populated county.
Cook/County Chicago has 50 wards, which are themselves subdivided into precincts. Most of the counties in FL and IL, OTOH, don't have enough voters to divide into 50 precincts, let alone subdivide those even further. There's no need for precinct maps to be posted in each polling place, since there's rarely enough polling places to count on one hand: one at the high school, one at the Baptist church hall. If you don't know where to vote, and you know NObody in town to ask, you call the county election board, they tell you it's in the high school cafeteria, you go vote. The problem of precincts "overlapping", as you suggest, doesn't really arise. Nor does finding "one easily accessible location," since generally there's not many locations to pick from.
I live in one of Florida's larger cities, yet NObody can be a stranger here. I'm a newcomer, a virtual recluse, yet have had people stop me at yard sales on the other side of town and tell me they know somebody who knows that I like mulberries and would I like to pick some at their house. The idea that people of any race would end up wandering the streets not only not knowing where to vote, but not getting pointed in the right direction by 50 strangers who know somebody who knows your grandmother is so remote as to be laughable. In this part of the world, you go to a restaurant once, and from then on the waitresses bring you the right drink without asking. Like most of Illinois, most of Florida is NOT Chicago. It is Smalltownsville USA, and I think you need to consider than when making assumptions.
I do agree that in larger population areas the issue of where to vote becomes more complicated. I lived in several different areas of Boston, including one where 2 different precincts' polling places were directly across the street from each other. In THOSE situations, a precinct map is indeed helpful. However, a voter needs to take some responsibility here. Complaining that nobody told you where to vote, when you could easily have called the election board a day or a week or a month before, is a bit like complaining that you bought a plane ticket but the ticket agent didn't draw you a map to the airport.
posted on December 9, 2000 02:35:04 PM new
HCQ - You seem to be a little confused about what me mean by a precinct worker. In Chicago the precinct is the smallest unit of measure of the people. As far as elections go, all the polling place people are called Election Judges. We give it a fancy name so people will volunteer for the job since all you have to do is fill out a form, be a registered voter, and agree to work from 5:00 am to 12:00 Midnight for $150.00.
Precinct workers are the Garbagemen, snow removal crews, office staff, and other assorted decent paying city jobs. And they are not given out by the Party Chairman. They used to be given out by the Ward Committeman, which is an elected position in every ward. It carries no pay but before the Shackman Decree of 1986 had a lot of power. The Ward Committeeman appoints precinct captains which prety much are the eyes and ears in the precinct. They do the routine stuff like meet with the Police Watch Commanders to discuss policing strategies or lack thereof. They make sure the local residents trash is collected. They keep track of abandoned property and they do the hand shaking with the local merchants.
I asked you how Florida Worked you assumed that a web site using terms that we use in different manner that you use gave you plenty of information. I hope explaining what we view a precinct as helped you understand the Chicago system a little better. And they don't call us the city that works for nothing. By the way in case you didn't know this The Party Chairman in Chicago historically is the Mayor so of course he controls jobs. About 275,000 of them to be exact.
posted on December 9, 2000 03:48:28 PM newnw67 - I suggest you go back and read your own city's official Board of Elections site, which states:
By law, the county chairman of each political party recommends a precinct by precinct list of names of qualified persons to serve as election judges for their respective political party in May of even numbered years. Judges of election are appointed by the Board of Election Commissioners and confirmed by the Court 35 days prior to any election from lists submitted by each county chairman.
[i]The county board of commissioners shall select and approve 3 persons as judges of election in each election precinct from a certified list, furnished by the chairman of the County Central Committee of the first leading political party in such precinct; and the county board of commissioners shall also select and approve 2 persons as judges of election in each election precinct from a certified list, furnished by
the chairman of the County Central Committee of the second leading political party. [/i]
Of course, this is all beside the point - pure obfuscation on your part.
Your original question was how the vote tallying process works in Florida, and whether ballots legally cast by blacks could be somehow separated out and "discarded" by pollworkers who, you apparently assumed, did manual counts at the precincts. Rather than theorizing, I pointed you to applicable Florida law showing those theories to be implausible at best. Not good enough; your next suggestion was that the system is somehow biased because it isn't required that precinct maps be posted in each polling place, and pointed to the moral superiority of an elections system of a city nationally renowned as an textbook example of political corruption and machinery which, that notwithstanding, has NO legal or practical application not only to another state, but to the remaining 99 counties in Illinois. To top it off, you can't even cite your own laws properly.
I've had enough of this trip through the looking glass. At least Boies et al. have the intelligence to spin plausibly and in complete sentences. You, OTOH, are now on "ignore."
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Dec 9, 2000 03:51 PM ]
posted on December 9, 2000 04:29:00 PM new
HCQ - What's the matter that US Supreme Court vote to Stay the Recounts a little too close for you.
Are you upset that the Florida Justices already cornered the Bush legal team on the case they used last time and effectively stripped them from using it this time.
Or are you just upset that this election is just too darn close. And all the screamimng about Morals and Integrity that the Republican party has been chanting since Dole is now down the drain because the Party Doesn't have the integrity to let a few votes be counted.
Actually you are right comparing Chicago to Florida is a little off beat. Because we don't allow Republicans on official party business within city limits. Notice Bush didn't bother to visit the city he went to the burbs to beg for votes. Sorta funny thing he didn't find too many there either. And judging by this election in Florida he didn't find enough there. But his brother managed to lose a few thousand or so that appear to be making the difference.
posted on December 10, 2000 05:16:22 AM new
Personal reply to IMLDS2 A.K.A. Carole:
With an established IQ of about 170, do you REALLY
expect me to swallow your "Gore-bage"? (Ignore the
fact, for the moment, that I am also African-American)
And if the systematic ignorance of the rules of suffrage
are indeed the fault of Mr. Gore, then why is he attempting to take the recount all the way to the Florida Supreme Court? And here I thought 'ol Al was
just being childish....(tsk, tsk).
Thirdly, JUST WHAT IS GEORGE W. BUSH GOING TO DO FOR,
(OR TO) MINORITY GROUPS IN GENERAL?? I didn't like his
platform statements on minority matters at all, especially his stand on the elderly; he treats them as a
minority group, when in about a decade, they'll actually
be a MAJORITY to contend with.
Get a clue, my friend; Democracy as we know it is done for. Haven't you been tracking changes to the Constitution itself over the last decade or so? Our
government is slowly manuvering things into position
so that basic rights may be CONSTITUTIONALLY curtailed!
I'm seriously considering immigrating.........
Starseeker
[ edited by starseeker on Dec 10, 2000 05:17 AM ]
[ edited by starseeker on Dec 10, 2000 05:19 AM ]
posted on December 10, 2000 12:54:22 PM new
I'd be interested to know where you're considering, starseeker. Please share with us your research on individual freedoms in other nations.
posted on December 10, 2000 06:19:48 PM new
HCQ - I just read your last post and in re-reading it. I discovered your problem. I never said campaign workers seperated votes you seem to have invented that of your own mind. I said since the votes in question by matter of facts in eveidence have never been counted let alone recounted. Remember the essence of this suit is the 9000 ballots kicked by those machines and haven't been hand counted either.
starseeker - Don't immigrate just yet if you survived eight years of Reagan followed by four years of Bush. Four years of this Bush should be a cake walk. The worse thing he can do is get us into a war with China. The best thing he can do is just sit there and look stupid which judging by his campaign. He has gotten that one mastered. So you'll survive, besides we are a people who have mastered the art of survival in the American system of closet suppression. Its these others who haven't foggiest of how to survive when things get a little tough who I worry about. You know the ones who commit suicide when they get laid off. Get fired and come back and shoot up the place So hopefully the old adage never ask for you want you might get doesn't prove to be true reference four years of Republican leadership. Well at least I can nolonger be drafted and don't have to do anymore time in combat either.
So if they start a war, I'll be safe and sound right here.
posted on December 10, 2000 08:11:23 PM new
Is it coincidence that Jeb and pal Katherine Harris "cleaned-up" Florida's voter rolls last summer to eliminate felons, deceased, and those who had moved? Maybe, but isn't it interesting that the infamous list of "felons" was provided by a Republican-owned Texas company?
As many as 8,000 names on the "felon" list were *not* felons (surprise, surprise). But their names were crossed-off anyway, with no notification to the voters as dictated by elections rules. Hence the barrage of reports of African-Americans turned away at their polling places, despite showing their voter registration cards.
We may see Dubya inaugurated next month, but the slimy stories of how he got there will continue to nauseate for months to come.
