posted on September 18, 2001 07:24:58 AM newJim, as I posted above, I support the sincere effort. With eBay, though, it's kink of hard to tell where the real support and concern ends, and the PR opportunisim begins. Paypal's open letter has more to do with self-promotion than charity. Am I correct in understanding that running an AFA auction means I must sign up for BillPoint?
posted on September 18, 2001 07:30:56 AM new
Direct from the AFA seller info page:
You must be registered for eBay Online Payments to use this service.
So, yes, twinsoft, it appears you must be signed up for BillPoint to participate in AFA, even for sellers.
I'm still not sure about the BillPoint fees, whether they will be absorbed by ebay (inserting large tongue in cheek here) or paid by the seller. I haven't seen any direct answer to this yet in any of the AFA info yet.
posted on September 18, 2001 07:41:55 AM new
It's fantastic that eBay's so willing to freely donate our time, money, products, and effort to their self-serving cause. I can't wait to see what they'll think up next!
posted on September 18, 2001 08:07:20 AM new
My understanding is that listing fees, FVF fees, and Billpoint fees are all being waived so that 100% of the bid price goes to the charity. Seller doesn't have to pay any of these fees (free listing, free FVF fee, and no Billpoint fee). The bid price is paid via Instant Purchase and goes to the fund. Seller puts up the item and pays for the S/H themselves without reimbursement.
My first auction up for AFA already has a bid - I'm pleased - I've been trying to sell the exact same thing with no luck in regular auctions and this item hasn't even been up for 24 hours yet. I'll probably put up some other things that I've been saving up for the next FLD....
posted on September 18, 2001 09:48:12 AM newWhat a disgusting little catfight to have at a time like this. I'd recommend editing the letter out of the beginning of the thread, and asking the mods to lock it up.
I kind of agree. I thought the "public" letter to eBay was in poor taste. Maybe I'm wrong. It's a confusing time.
It's not really a complete parallel, but do you see PayPal setting up a system where anyone can donate via c2it, Achex or PayDirect?
It would be nice if they all teamed up and set up a unified site where you can pay via the above and Amazon and eBay payments. But I think it is a little silly to expect eBay to accept payments via PayPal. If Visa set up a donation site, should they accept Amex?
Again, it would be nice, but I think what eBay is doing is quite nice all the same.
posted on September 18, 2001 10:50:53 AM new
Maybe Paypal should accept billpoint on ITS site in their program for donations...that way they might have a moral leg to stand on when they ask ebay to allow paypal in the AFA program.
And maybe paypal would have more credibility if they suspended the rules for their premier program for those auctions that are listed in the AFA program.
posted on September 18, 2001 11:02:02 AM new
Just an update:
According to eBay, they have contacted PayPal to let them know that eBay will not be altering their terms for the AFA to allow other payment options. There may be an explanation of the rationale behind this later in the day.
posted on September 18, 2001 11:10:17 AM new
Vidpro2...doesn't it seem logical that since the auctions are being held on ebay and ebay would be held responsible if there were ANY irregularities in the donated funds NOT getting to the charities it was collected for that ebay should have full control and oversight of the funds collected UNDER THEIR NAME?
Without direct control, ebay CANNOT guarantee that the funds go to the charities. IF funds are collected and NOT sent to the charities designated then ebay can be criminally charged with conducting a swindle. Ebay HAS to have control of a charity drive to ensure there are no improprieties. they would have NO control over the funds collected through paypal.
There is a legal issue here. Ebay is telling the buyers (and sellers) that the auction proceeds are going to charity...therefore they have a fiduciary responsibility to oversee this is a manner that assures the donees that their donation DOES go where they were told it would go.
posted on September 18, 2001 11:19:21 AM new
These are all excellent points.
I do have an email in to Paypal requesting that PP Preferred people (like me) be allowed to list AFA with Billpoint and their regular auctions with Paypal only and remain PP Preferred.
posted on September 18, 2001 11:24:56 AM newMy understanding is that listing fees, FVF fees, and Billpoint fees are all being waived so that 100% of the bid price goes to the charity.
Really? The entire winning bid amount is supposed to go to charity?
I've seen several of these auctions, and most say that the PROFIT will go to the charity, not the entire amount. Of course the sellers don't say what they've actually got invested in their items, so you have to take that on faith...?
posted on September 18, 2001 11:29:14 AM new
Do you think it's possible for you people to let go of your pettiness for ONE day?
You criticize Ebay. Where were you selling your stuff before Ebay? At some dusty fleamarket where you had to load and unload your car on Saturday in the hopes that some cheapskate wouldn't bargain you down to nothing.
You want to know how much Ebay is donating to the relief effort. How much money do you think all of this is costing Ebay? Do you think it's free to host auctions, or develop and setup a new page? Do you think there's some legitimate, money making tasks that they could have been working on that were dropped in order to get this done? How much money do you think that's costing Ebay? The answer is - one hell of a lot of money.
Of course, all of you amateur MBAs out there know how to do it better than they do. What rubbish.
Each of you should take a step back and remember why we're even discussing all of this. Thousands of Americans were killed last week. Thousands more will be in harm's way in the weeks and months ahead. Many will come back in flag-draped coffins, while all of you sit and whine about auction fees and chargebacks and the money that Ebay is making.
Each of us are now on the front lines of a very real and very deadly war. Let me know what foxhole you'll be in so I can look for someone else to hunker down with.
posted on September 18, 2001 11:31:56 AM new
A lot of sellers (& buyers) are going to get rather rude awakenings when the auctions end. The sellers who say "profit only" will discover that Billpoint is sending *all* the money direct to the charities; the seller never gets to touch it. So will these sellers then refuse to ship, or demand additional direct payment from the buyers?
Same thing applies to those sellers who think the buyer will pay shipping?
eBay seems to be building toward a very ugly scene, with lots of negs, chargebacks (against the charities, presumably), and buyer vs. seller hostility.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:00:00 PM new
Another poster hit the nail right on head regarding eBay's charity marketing scheme.
CONTROL and EBAY'S NAME ON IT.
That's what it is about, not charity.
To suggest that eBay would not open these auctions up to other online payment systems due to fraud is absurd.
I am sure a company as large and growing like Paypal accepting the charity payments would defraud a charity. Online payments are the safest and most traceable and retrievable movement of money ever used.
This is nothing more than a crass and cruel free marketing/press mission by eBay. What scum ! eBay knows it costs hundreds of dollars per person in marketing costs to sign up new members to services like BillPoint. Sickening.
I hope Paypal sets up a separate auction for the 70% of eBay users that use Paypal.
Do you think eBay would allow links to the Paypal charity auctions ???
posted on September 18, 2001 12:06:20 PM new
I have been following the WTC news very closely and if I recall, on 9-12, a Detroit TV news station reported that General Motors donated 1 million dollars to the relief fund. Ford Motors, (struggling with the
Firestone dilemma) donated 1/2 million.
They took this money from their own coffers and didn't wait for the public to buy a car through their financing arms, i.e., GMAC and Ford Motor Credit.
Hey, I've got a really good idea! Why don't everyone reading this send me a donation for the WTC victims. I can put this money in my checking account and send a tax deductible donation to the American
Red Cross. At the end of the year, I will have a check showing a contribution to the Red Cross.
At first, I thought the idea of 100 Million in 100 days was a great idea. But now, upon closer observation it appears to be only a scheme based on greed, arrogance and self betterment.
Recently, after reading many threads on Billpoint, I was giving consideration to the possibility of adding them to my auctions. This seals the deal. I won't! Why buy the store brand, when the national brand tastes better?
posted on September 18, 2001 12:06:23 PM newtwinsoft How you been, have not seen in a while.
I do not know the answer to your question, about requiring to accept Billpoint. I would think they would set the payee to someone else rather than you to avoid this possible problem. sorry I can not add more.
Paypal's open letter has more to do with self-promotion than charity I agree with you 100% and I think what eBay is doing is a lot of promotion also just like others have so boldly stated but I can see past that a little bit. I think what they are trying to do is also a good thing. Most people say just donate to whom ever, which I have done. <- Promoting myself
But think of this, what if I have something say that cost me $1.00, and if I sent it somewhere would cost me another $1.00. I now have something $2.00 of my cost and a little time maybe. I put it out at auction and someone wanting to feel good bids on this cause A they want the item and B they want to feel good and tell their buddies how much they donated by buying it.
So now I got me donating the $2.00 item to get a $5.00 bid/donation. I see that as a good thing and I'll bet that is more some the intention of this and not all promotion.
Now the $5.00 bid goes to the united way which uses $4.90 of to pay salaries and .10 to help someone, but that is a different thread.
If you can not afford to donate an item and ship it then don't, and shut up about it don't come hear crying. Take the $1.00 the item costs and donate it. Us that can spend the $2.00 and want to try and get $5.00 out of it let us and leave us alone for trying.
I am glad to see that those that do not take billpoint will not participate. Supposedly the largest seller on eBay who was supposed to have dinner with all the big wigs etc will not even participate. Fine but what respect I may have had for that person is now gone. Extra, Extra largest eBay seller will not even donate a single CD cause they have to use Billpoint. Will I sell computer items, not many just a few, one of the smallest sellers in the eBay world as that goes but I am going to donate using AFA cause as I explained before, it just may do some good.
Now don't get me started again today I got to do some work or I will loose my day job and people will have to put up with me doing this full time.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:13:19 PM new
Does anyone think for a moment that any of these donation drives made by major companies has charity as their primary motive? If you do you are naive...
gravid brought up an excellent point:
"Isn't there some way to bring religion into it also so they can stand in front and argue about who is holier?"
Actually it would be just the opposite.
"when you go making gifts of mercy, do not blow a trumpet ahead of you, as the hypocrites do....that they may be glorified by men. Truly I say to you, Thear are having their reward in full"
posted on September 18, 2001 12:13:28 PM newyeager Please send me your email address to my e-mail address you can get by clicking on my name. I will be glad to send you, through paypal, $5.00 to donate to the red cross or whom ever you think it will best bennifit.
Please keep the deduction, I never have or ever will take a deduction for a charitable contribution.
Don't get me wrong I do not donate thousands of dollars a year like other people but I donate to several orginizations and my wife does donate to united way through payroll deduction. (I can't get her to stop).
posted on September 18, 2001 12:13:31 PM new
Reamond...I was not suggesting paypal would not turn over the monies collected. But it is prudent for the soliciting group to maintain control over the collection of the funds...and it is the legally responsible thing to do. To do otherwise would be negligence on the part of the group making the solicitation.
Your suggestion that paypal start its own "Auctions for America" program is a great one that paypal should seriously consider. Instead of trying to "piggyback" on ebay's program so paypal can give a large multi-million dollar check to the united way in PAYPAL'S name (and did no work to solicit those funds...they will let ebay do the work).
If ebay's motives are questionable here so are paypal's.
This is nothing more than a crass and cruel free marketing/press mission by eBay
The same can be said about paypal...in spades!!
By the way... that 30%-70% figure is misleading because many of those 70% of auctions that take paypal ALSO take billpoint. And 100% of auctions do not take online payment services...some take none and others take neither paypal OR billpoint but use other online payment services.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:13:32 PM newExtra largest eBay seller will not even donate a single CD cause they have to use Billpoint.
Seems rather unfair to criticize someone else because they choose not to contribute to a charity in the manner in which you feel they should, but that's just me...
posted on September 18, 2001 12:14:45 PM new
Meg has run eBay pretty much into the ground since becoming it's CEO, she knows little of the type of business that eBay used to be.
Paypal is a better service hands down, no question about it, they had the Red Cross donation link up almost right away. people tend to choose what is the best, most reliable and easy to use, Paypal wins over Billpoint on all counts, and if we had a choice of 2 Auction sites I would think that the way eBay has treated all of us for the last 2+ years, they would have a 30% share and the other site 70%, but the fact is, Amazon and Yahoo know even less of how to run an Auction site, so eBay is it, and for now they are the only game in town, but if they continue to hurt their sellers, their game will be over. some way, some how some other site will endure just waiting for enough ebay sellers to jump ship. I would like to all of those who lost someone in last tuesdays attacks on humanity...I am truely sorry, and as a member of the U.S. armed forces, we will all do our very best to rid the world of these types events from ever happening again. thank you all for letting me vent a bit.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:22:38 PM new
Mrpotatoehead...not to be argumentative, but is it any less fair to criticize ebay for the way it is trying to raise money for this cause?
Yeager...why didn't Ford and General Motors do an anonymous donation instead? Do you think it is because they are hoping that a publically made donation will in crease sales and help their bottom line? In other words, do think it is possible their donations were not done anonymously for crass business reasons...they want the public to remember how "good" and "patriotic" and "sympathetic" they are?
posted on September 18, 2001 12:23:19 PM newmrpotatoheadd
Seems rather unfair to criticize someone else because they choose not to contribute to a charity in the manner in which you feel they should
I understand how you see it that way but it was brought up because they desided to tell their little story earlier in this thread and how they hated they are so special and have a special number to talk to to little boys they could not participate.
When I say things in public I expect the to be criticized by other people if I do something like that. I am sure to be criticized here for what I have said but I can stand up to, it was me taht said it. If I can not then I will have to change my ways.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:26:07 PM new
It is "prudent" for the solicitor to handle the funds is More B.S. The ultimate sloicitor here is the United Way. It is "prudent" to have your corporate logos on the check, and sign up new users.
Some brilliant and "prudent" person(s) at eBay knew that it costs $350 to $500 in marketing fees to attract each new user to a service like Billpoint.
MORE BS.- "ebay would be held responsible if there were ANY irregularities in the donated funds".
eBay has demonstrated in at least 2 court cases that it is responsible for very little if anything at its "venue".
edited to add- NONE of the other corporate donors forced their customers to use their services or products to make a donation. This was straight up corporate giving, no strings or or forcing donors to sign up for their services.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:49:23 PM new
Reamond...try to look at this in a calm manner, with an open mind that is not hindered by predjudice.
The United Way Is soliciting funds...they have a legal responsibility that the monies turned over to them are used as they told thier donor it would. In this situation ebay would be the donor and United Way the solicitor.
Moving up the line, when ebay solicits funds that they say are going to be turned over to the United Way then ebay becomes the solicitor and the auction buyer and seller are the donors.
So BOTH United Way and ebay have an equal legal responsibility as solicitors.
If the United Way does anything illegal with the funds ebay gives them the United Way would be the one in the criminal hot seat, not ebay. If ebay were to do anything illegal with the funds they collect in the name of the United Way (and the United Way was in no way involved) then EBAY would be in the criminal hot seat, not the United Way. And of course, if there were collusion between the two in any illegal activity, then BOTH would be in the legal hot seat.
Collecting for charity is governed by many laws. The fact that ebay has been victorious in prior lawsuits has no bearing on this. This isn't a VENUE situation.
posted on September 18, 2001 12:58:37 PM new
I know there are lots of sellers who for a variety of reasons won't participate in AFA - but are donating in MANY other ways - time at the red cross, blood donations, Paypal payments to the relief fund collection, sending toys to comfort children who have been hurt or lost parents...
I really hope sellers who DON"T participate don't get slammed around or get email because they aren't VISIBLY or PUBLICALLY donating to the Cause. The quote about tooting ones is quite true - the most generous person is the ones who don't ask for fanfare.
For example, we had fund raisers here in town by a radio station/tv station. They set up in the parking lot each morning and evening during the rush hours to collect payments. One morning, a lady drives in, waves the guy over to the car, and hands him a check saying something about being late for work and hope this helps and please not to mention her name, and then leaves.. Guy walks back to put the check into the collection tub and opens the folded check - $10,000.00. No fanfare asked for, but such generousity.
I've mentioned before that I'm going to donate a % of my sales this month to charity - I mention that not to toot my own horn, but to suggest to other sellers a way of contributing if they feel they wish to.
I know a lot of sellers asking for "How can I help" who don't/won't participate in AFA.
On a side note, my first AFA auction already has 2 bids on it only 24 hours old. 8) Can't wait to put up some more. Since the Billpoint chargeback issue has been answered, I feel more comfortable dealing with them.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:13:32 PM new
eBay would have no responsibility if Paypal were to steal charity funds in the format of these charity auctions, any more than if a bank stole charity funds deposited there.
Again, it has been demonstrated that the facts haven gotten in the way of defending eBay's position as espoused by OP.
The bottom line is eBay makes/saves $350-$500 for each new Billpoint member that signs up and that is why eBay has closed this auction to other online payment services.
Ebay may actually make more from this Billpoint sign up than they will give in the fee donations.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:16:41 PM new
i very much appreciate the way paypal put up their link to donate to the red cross - quickly and without fanfare. this made it very easy for me, and many others, to quickly donate. they get a lot of credit for that, in my book.
i'm not so thrilled with the letter. it's self serving, where the red cross donations link was not. of course they saw ebay making a self-serving move to help promote billpoint, and responded with this. but it's paypal 1, ebay 0, in the 'just trying to help out' score.
And maybe paypal would have more credibility if they suspended the rules for their premier program for those auctions that are listed in the AFA program
i agree.
also agree that the billpoint 30%, paypal 70% doesn't add up. i've read the posts of numerous sellers here who take neither, and seen numerous listings of sellers who take neither.
posted on September 18, 2001 01:24:38 PM new
There are 4 groups of sellers:
Billpoint only -
Billpoint & Paypal accepted
Paypal only -
Neither accepted
What they are saying is the first 2 groups make up about 30% of the auctions, and the 2nd and 3rd group make up about 70% of the auctions....
So maybe its a breakdown like this
Billpoint only - 10%
Billpoint & Paypal - 20%
Paypal only - 50%
Neither accepted - 20%
or it could be
Billpoint only - 2%
Billpoint & Paypal - 28%
Paypal only - 42%
Neither accepted - 28%
Now, the absolutely most it would be would be this:
Billpoint only - 0%
Billpoint & Paypal - 30%
Paypal only - 40%
Neither accepted - 30%
So by only allowing Billpoint, they are limiting themselves to 30% of the sellers... by including Paypal you open it up to another possible 40% of the total user base (the most "neither" could be would be 30% I think).
