posted on September 30, 2001 12:30:06 PM
Hi--
Long story short::
A guy bought a lot of vintage flashbulbs from me for 125.00 and paid by PayPal. I shipped the items to his New York City address on September 10. He has not received them yet, and has complained to PayPal about me. I have tried to convince him to be patient because of mail delays right now.
PayPal is threatening to put a hold on the payment. I think that the package is either stuck in the mail or that this guy has received it and is trying to get something for nothing. His Ebay feedback is "5".
What can I do to keep PayPal from pulling the money back out of my account?
I do not have a tracking number.
posted on September 30, 2001 12:45:07 PM
I don't think you can stop them, from what I've read on these boards over the past year they will do what they want and you can do very little about it.
If they are threatening to take the money back out of your non-paypal checking acount, contact your bank and stop aucthorization for them to withdraw or what ever it is called.
posted on September 30, 2001 01:14:02 PM
I've been thinking about not accepting PayPal at all. Maybe I should just close my account. The other day I completed an $850 dollar sale and was absolutely SHOCKED to see that their portion of that was almost $25 ! What a rip off. I would much rather have the twenty five bucks and wait a few days.
posted on September 30, 2001 01:36:41 PM
Paypal is not the problem here.
1. Did you insure the item?
2. Did you use tracking?
If you mailed an item worth $125.00 without either, you have opened the door to the position you now find yourself in. If you don't want to pay for insurance or tracking, then charge the customer for it.
posted on September 30, 2001 01:46:30 PMThe other day I completed an $850 dollar sale and was absolutely SHOCKED to see that their portion of that was almost $25 ! What a rip off.
Have you considered the possibility that had you not accepted PayPal, your sale would have been for $750 rather than $850?
posted on September 30, 2001 02:36:42 PMpossibility that had you not accepted PayPal, your sale would have been for $750 rather than $850?
Yeah, right. Someone wants something like this (vintage flashbulbs) bad enough to pay $850 for them, but they won't take 10 minutes to use some form of payment other than paypal?
For a $10 purchace, you might be right, but not for a purchase like this. Sorry, I don't beleive it.
posted on September 30, 2001 02:40:48 PM
That's what I'm thinking.
If the buyer doesn't choose to request insurance, then they should assume the risk of not receiving the item. How do I know he doesn't already have the bulbs?
How do I do tracking on just a regular uninsured, non-priority item ?
posted on September 30, 2001 05:00:10 PM
Since you can to the USPS site and print out a free delivery confirmation for Priority mail I can't see any excuse for not using it.
posted on September 30, 2001 05:07:19 PM
Delivery Confirmation will also give you the tracking on non-Priority shipments, except for First Class of course.
But, in this case, insurance would have been the better option. $125.00 is a lot of money and particularly with a fragile shipment like flashbulbs.
posted on September 30, 2001 05:32:18 PM
If you ship by UPS (United Parcel Service) You get delivery confirmation/tracking with every package. When you ship, then give you the number. They also insure every package for $100 (built into the shipping price)
With the post office, you can buy delivery confirmation for Priority mail or package services like parcel post and media mail. There is a small form that you fill out and it costs forty or fifty cents depending on what kind of package it is. Insurance is available for $1.10- up (price goes up by value, $50.00 is the break point, then $100.00)
You really should read up on shipping, insurance, tracking before you jump into ebay and credit card services. Read the TOS of paypal and understand how it works when a customer doesn't receive the goods as promised.
If you were a customer and paid $125.00 for collectible widgits and didn't received them, how would you feel? Would you be happy if the seller said "I don't have proof, but I sent them." Also, if you don't want to purchase insurance out of your pocket, you should offer it to your customers, and make it very clear, upfront, that you won't be responsible for lost or damage articles if they refuse insurance. It's not good enough to say now "they didn't ask about insurance" You have to protect your reputation as a seller, especially when using credit card services like paypal. They will stand behind you if you follow their TOS.
posted on September 30, 2001 05:39:54 PM
I've completed close to a thousand Ebay transactions with only 2 unhappy customers.
I've never paid to track anything and have only insured a handful of things at the customer's request.
I've contemplated switching to UPS, but have stayed with USPS because of the free priority shipping supplies.
posted on September 30, 2001 09:27:51 PMtlatoz-Although it may be too late to help you in this instance, I would like to recommend that if it every happens again, the first thing you should do when a buyer notifies you the package is "late", is to keep in very close contact with them.
Let them know you will start a trace on the package as soon as the USPS lets you. I think that is possible after only 10 days. A trace can be requested whether the package was insured or not or whether DC was used or not.
This at least lets the buyer know you will try and help them and hopefully that will disspell any fears they have that you did not send the package.
If you are going to take PP or Billpoint for that matter, you really need to require insurance or at least a method of shipment that allows DC.
PayPal requires proof of shipment. They require that proof be by some trackable means. That requires either the blue insurance form (over $50 insured value) OR DC. Delivery Confirmation can be purchased for Priority but NOT 1st Class. Those are the only ones I am familiar with and I'm not sure about the other forms of shipment where DC can be purchased so you need to check with your PO about that.
I have learned that staying in close contact with your buyer, if there is a problem or a perceived problem, is the best solution.
If you advise the buyer that you are requesting a trace on the package and request that they give the USPS an opportunity to locate the package, which could take awhile, and ask that they fill out whatever form the USPS might send them, that might slow them down from running to PP or BP or their CC company to reverse payment! If it doesn't, you at least have copies of your emails to the buyer to show those services that you are making an effort to resolve the problem and that the USPS needs time to complete it's search!
I hope it works out for you.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Sep 30, 2001 09:32 PM ]
Did the guy use a credit or debit card through paypal?
Does your TOS make it clear that insurance isn't included in your shipping quote, and that you aren't responsible for uninsured items once they leave your hands?
Do you empty your PP account within hours of funds receipt?
PP will not go into your bank account to collect disputed funds, but they will do chargebacks against your PP account and leave you to sort it out later....
posted on October 1, 2001 05:34:26 AM
all you guys keep trying to blame the seller
WAKE UP
he did all he was required to do
which was mail the package
the buyer CHOSE paypal
the buyer CHOSE no insurance
now because a RIPOFF company like paypal can screw the seller you all want the seller to do EXTRA things he is not paid to do.
ok, now you say well he should charge to do these extra things WRONG.
who are YOU to require HIM to do things you consider to be correct.
oh, if he insured it, oh, if he used a different shipping company oh, if he had done this or if he had done that.
BULL
he sold an item and the buyer chose whatever he wanted, this is an example of how a GOOD seller can be screwed by a bad buyer with the HELP of paypal.
to Hell with all these extra things you have to do to please paypal - there service is NOT worth it - you people really are missing the big picture, simply because you don't want to hear a bad word about your precious paypay.
and that is that the SELLER is the one getting screwed thru NO FAULT of his own.
my advice - CLOSE your paypal account - make sure there can be NO chargebacks thru your bank or credit cards - SIGN up with C2IT -
now FLAME away cheerleaders -
The seller has not made it very clear that he/she offered insurance and the buyer refused it. Instead he/she said "the buyer doesn't choose to request insurance" Did the buyer have to ask?
The seller charged $10.00 s/h and doesn't mention insurance at all in the auction ad.
The seller also mentioned that he/she had over 1000 sales. That tells me that he/she is a seasoned veteran seller, and should know the basics, which also includes the very basic CYA, in my opinion.
To Cover his backside, the seller needs to understand the risks involved in taking online credit card payments. The seller needs to understand that there is a risk of chargebacks. The seller should also understand that Paypal says that in order to protect yourself you need to send items with online tracking. (this seller doesn't appear to even understand what delivery confirmation/online tracking is) Most seasoned veteran sellers also realize that there is a risk involved when shipping items, and that occassionally one will get lost/stolen or damaged in transit. If the seller ships an item without proof of shipment and insurance, then he needs to deal with the repercussions if the item is lost or damaged.
posted on October 1, 2001 06:36:58 AM
"Yeah, right. Someone wants something like this (vintage flashbulbs) bad enough to pay $850 for them, but they won't take 10 minutes to use some form of payment other than paypal?
For a $10 purchace, you might be right, but not for a purchase like this. Sorry, I don't beleive it."
------------------------------------
For an 850.00 item if I could not pay with a credit card to protect myself I would not have bid at all. I believe a lot of people feel the same way, why should I send 850.00 in cash or check and not get any protection at all. Now for a 10.00 item I would take a chance and send a check or MO, no way for 850.00.
posted on October 1, 2001 09:19:06 AMwhitemistCLOSE your paypal account - make sure there can be NO chargebacks thru your bank or credit cards - SIGN up with C2IT
whitemist, while you might feel you aren't liable for credit card payments via C2it I think if you make some calls to them you'll find a learning experience.
Do you really need to call? If the buyer claims non delivery of merchandise do you honestly think any service (BillPoint, PayDirect, MoneyZap, Ecount, eMoneyMail, C2it, or a merchant account) will say, "Okay, never mind proof of shipping/delivery, we'll eat the chargeback."
For that amount the seller should have insured the package and gotten some form of online tracking. If you gamble and lose, you lose.
I've had some problems on Amazon with people saying they didn't get it and recently started putting DC on everything. But prior to that whenever I received a "I didn't get it" I would write them an apologetic letter. I would take a picture of my postal receipt and post it on my website and provide the link within my letter to show proof that it was mailed. I would then explain that I would be happy to put in a tracer and if it does not show up in another 15 days I will send them a legal affadavit to sign stating that they never received the package since it was shipped USPS and is enforced by the fed's. Again I would apologize for the inconvenience.
I've never heard back from one "I didn't get it yet" and I never once sent an affidavit. I sell mainly books under $25 but some that go for more $$ I just automatically insure them. You might want to look into DC or UPIC for insurance.
posted on October 1, 2001 09:33:27 AM
As a seller when I have an auction that ends high, in my TOS I say insurance is recommended and if they elect not to use it I put it on myself. Maybe I am wrong but I feel obligated for that package until it gets into the buyers hands. I don't tell them I am putting insurance on it so if they tell me it didn't arrive then I am covered. If they aren't telling the truth it will be found out because anything over $100.00 has a tracker on it. Now considering the date that you mailed it and it went to New York, it still might get there. I know when I mailed a Priority Box during that time all mail was held up because of the Terriorist attach. In fact they held my Priority Box for a week until the Planes started hauling mail again.
As for a low feedback, most of my buyers are new. It seems like the older ones are gone. I have no trouble with any of them and I am glad to see them here. Good Luck
You should go to the C2IT web site
Read the user agreement
SECTION 9
Paragraph B
Maybe it's time you learned a little something.
And if you still don't understand what you read call 1-800-200-3881(published number)
And ASK, they will tell you
C2IT does NOT get involved in disputes
They said IF a credit card company contacts them with a disputed payment, they will inform the credit card company that the buyer AGREED by using the service that they could cancel the payment at anytime prior to it being "picked up" by the recipient, but once it was "picked up" then it was to late.
When I asked about a quality of goods dispute OR a buyer claiming that the package had not arrived, I was told
"C2it is strictly a PAYMENT SERVICE, and would NOT get involved in these things"
And, in my opinion, that's exactly what it should do.
Do yourself a favor, check em out
If you believe that buyers paying via credit cards with C2it don't have chargeback rights you're wrong, if you believe C2it will eat the chargebacks you are... well you are a genuine optimist.
Maybe someone else more patient, more understanding, and more eloquent than I will explain what C2it means when they say they won't be involved in any disputes.
posted on October 1, 2001 12:42:45 PM
C2it will not eat them.
they will NOT grant them
the user agreed to abide by C2IT's TERMS...
which means they cannot do a dispute against C2it -- PERIOD
go read the TOS
then re-read till you understand
If you think a creditcard company is gonna tell CITIBANK what to do YOU are the optimist.
Maybe you dont think Citibank issues any credit ards
maybe you dont think they know what they are doing.
as I said take the time to read the TOS then give them a call.
posted on October 1, 2001 12:52:52 PMcredit card to protect myself I would not have bid at all. I believe a lot of people feel the same way, why should I send 850.00 in cash or check and not get any protection
You do know that cuts both ways don't you? With a paypal payment, the seller has NO protection. Do everything that paypal askes, and a savey buyer can STILL do a bogus charge back. A buyer still has mail fraud laws on his side, but a seller that takes a paypal payment for this kind of money is asking to be hung out to dry.
Question: Would you sell a 15 year old car for $850 if you knew that 6 months down the road, after someone wrecked it, they could FORCE you to refund the $850?
posted on October 1, 2001 12:56:42 PM
You might not be able to dispute it with C2it, but you can still lodge a complaint with the holder of the credit card you used. Here is a portion of C2it's aggreement:
2. Error and Dispute Resolution for your Linked Accounts:
If you have a question or believe an error occurred when you requested that money be sent to or from one of your Linked Accounts and your c2it Membership, in addition to contacting the c2it service, you should contact the financial institution which owns your Linked Account as soon as possible to preserve any dispute rights which you may have with such financial institution
and
3. Citibank is not responsible for determining whether the amount of money being sent is correct for any underlying transaction or is actually owed to the recipient. Any disputes that arise between a c2it Member or a recipient relating to payments made or any other aspects of transactions between individuals are not the responsibility of Citibank.
Perhaps I've misunderstood the thread here, but I would never use any of my credit cards with a company that wouldn't "allow" me to dispute a charge if there was a problem. I don't see how C2it can have anything to do with Disputes on credit cards.
[ edited by Meya on Oct 1, 2001 12:57 PM ]
posted on October 1, 2001 08:28:02 PM
whitemist, one more try.
which means they cannot do a dispute against C2it -- PERIOD
By federal law, if someone pays for something by credit card, and that thing does not arrive, the credit card company must remove the charge from the cardholders account.
By federal law.
This charge is summarily extracted from the account of the charging merchant, c2it in your story.
No one asks c2it's permission.
C2it, in turn, not getting involved, summarily extracts it from seller's account.
posted on October 2, 2001 06:15:35 AM
whitemist ..... you're wrong
Also
For an 850.00 item if I could not pay with a credit card to protect myself I would not have bid at all. I believe a lot of people feel the same way, why should I send 850.00 in cash or check and not get any protection at all
FYI - I have never accepted PayPal, and dropped Billpoint along time ago, and I have no problem getting bids, and checks/Mo's for amounts in the $250-$2,500 range.
Just last month I accepted a personal check for $1,000+, and I didn't hold it to make sure it was "good" before I sent the goods.
Trust is a 2 way street, I trust my buyers that their funds are good, and they trust me that my merchandise is exactly what I said it was in my description.
1500+ sales on eBay & I've never had a problem selling high end pieces without offering PayPal or Billpoint.
Many of these high end buyers have told me that they would NEVER trust an online company with their CC info, and refuse to use their CC online.
posted on October 2, 2001 06:31:00 AM
Hey
I got an Idea
why don't one of you bright ones
make up another ID
and start a thread stating that you had a C2IT chargeback !!!
why?
because that's the ONLY time you will hear about a C2it chargeback.
you people are too scared to read C2it's TOS and too afraid to call them and ask them how they handle this stuff, simply because you dont want to admit when you are wrong.
me, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
And, Yep, I have been wrong before.
Of course it was about 20 years ago.
It was the time I thought I had made a mistake, But I was wrong.
