posted on January 29, 2002 08:15:57 PM new
Had someone complain about my method of posting feedback. This is the first time this has happened, but I'd thought I'd share with other sellers here...
When I ship someone's item, I send this this message:
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Hello <buyer>,
Thanks for your business. Your item -- WIDGETORAMA -- has been shipped and should arrive shortly. Please email me at
<myemail> if you have any questions or the item does not arrive in the next few days.
It is our policy to post feedback once the transaction is complete -- that is when you have received your item. Please let us know when it has arrived so that we can provide feedback to eBay.
It has been a pleasure doing business with you and we look forward to having you as a customer again!
=====
To which I received this semi-complaint tonight (the first one).
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<seller>,
Why is it that some sellers don't want to leave feedback when the buyer has fulfilled all of their obligations?......what could possibly make you NOT want to leave a positive feedback when I have already paid for my item? (in an extremely timely fashion also!)
I don't feel that it is my obligation to let you know that the item has been received before you leave a positive feedback for me. I would be interested to hear your response.
Thanks for listening,
<buyer>
p.s. I just have to let sellers know that this is an irritant not only to myself, but many other ebayers also.
=====
To which I replied:
=====
Thanks for asking. As indicated, we post feedback when the transaction is complete. We, as do many ebay sellers, feel that this is the only appropriate time to post feedback -- when the deal is done. A buyer's end of the transaction is not completed when they make payment just as a seller's end isn't completed when they put the item in the mail. Only when the buyer has received the merchandise can the current relationship between the two parties be considered complete.
Feedback represents the buyer's assessment of the seller and the seller's assessment of the buyer for the entire transaction. I'm sure you can see that leaving feedback prematurely would not accurately reflect upon either party. It would be dishonest of either party to comment on the other's conduct for the entire transaction before that transaction is completed.
You will note that we are very good about leaving feedback when the transaction is completed. We will do the same in your case as well.
But a good question and there was no harm in asking.
Thanks!
=====
I'm not right or wrong and neither is he. But he's making it sound like I'm doing something terrible.
posted on January 29, 2002 08:52:26 PM new
I know that this has been discussed many times before in this forum.
I personally leave +feedback as soon as the buyer's payment has been received and/or check has cleared (if I'm holding the item until that time--very rare for me).
235 or so feedbacks, no negs, and my policy on leaving feedback has never bit me - yet.
I'm sure, though, that you're waiting to make certain there's no fraud involved, no false broken-item claims, etc. Maybe for some of us it takes more experience to get leery about buyers, and once bitten we back off a bit.
Whatever floats your boat! I think your answer to your buyer makes sense and is clearly spelled out.
posted on January 29, 2002 09:17:23 PM new
Personally, I leave feedback shortly after I ship the item. I have NEVER (knock on wood) had a problem with that. I could not imagine tring to keep track of whether or not the winner told me they received it and then leave feedback.
I send out 50-75 packages a week for at least 100 items.
I have received 2680 feedback 715 are repeat customers. I have 3 neutrals and 1 neg. And of course the neg was not deserved but it had to happen sooner or later
Why would you wait to post feedback?
In my opinion it is not right for a seller to only post feedback after the buyer does. I don't understand that at all.
I use Vrane to post my feedback and can post each days shipments in less than 5 minutes for about 40-50 items.
posted on January 29, 2002 09:19:31 PM new
It seems pretty chickenshit to hold the feedback hostage. By withholding feedback a seller seems to say "I will give you a negative if you give me a negative because of things like excessive s/h fees, item not as described, seller held check for two weeks, etc." It seems like the seller doesn't want to lose the opprotunity to fire off a retailatory feedback if they are given a bad feedback.
I love Yahoo's feedback system because either party can change a feedback anytime. No need for feedback games over there at all.
Sorry if that assesment seems harsh but that is how many buyers feel about sellers not leaving positive feedback when the buyer has completed his part of the deal.
posted on January 29, 2002 09:56:36 PM new
One reason for waiting to post feedback is if
there is a chargeback or if a check bounces after the item is sent that can be noted.
I don't mind if a seller wants to wait to make sure thinks are OK and the item has been received before posting feedback (as a seller, I do it myself). It also protects the seller from buyers who are impatient and won't accept that the mail may be slow or running behind----they say it is always the seller's fault.
By waiting to post feedback, a seller's chances of having a buyer hold feedback hostage are also reduced. If there is a problem with an item or a question about shipment, I appreciate it if the buyer lets me know, so that I can correct it, rather than leaving negative feedback.
If the buyer is a repeat customer and a degree of trust has been built I would not be as concerned over the probability of receiving a bad check or getting a chargeback. I would probably leave feedback right away.
As an example, think about the woman who was recently stuck with two bad checks by the same bidder. Just think if the seller had left feedback immediately after the checks were received (before they bounced)
"Fast Payment. Great Buyer. A++++"
What else could the seller have done except left a response under the POSITIVE comment like:
"I take back my positive comments. The seller writes bad checks and cheated me."
[ edited by professorhiggins on Jan 30, 2002 07:55 AM ]
posted on January 29, 2002 11:19:52 PM new
Whoa now. Some of you need to read CLEARLY.
I never said anything about holding feedback hostage. Just that I don't post feedback until they let me know the item has arrived safely. Many times, I've posted feedback after they've informed me of such and never received feedback in return.
Quite frankly, I think the seller in most cases SHOULD post first. However, I just hold out until the transaction is complete -- as I indicated. The buyer completes his part at the same time as the seller -- when the deal is done.
Some of you self-righteous folks need to take a minute to read BEFORE responding. It makes you look silly to go off on a tantrum and have completely missed the point.
As for why would I want to wait? That's my concern, but most of us don't sell as much as you, richierich. I track every package to make and do a followup a few days after shipping to make sure everything was ok. I don't just fire and forget.
posted on January 29, 2002 11:25:47 PM new
As usual, you are so right professorhiggins, & very well put too.
[ edited by mcjane on Jan 29, 2002 11:27 PM ]
posted on January 30, 2002 12:34:28 AM new
If everyone waits for the transaction to end before granting feedback you will get the old kid's game of 'hand it over, no you first, let's both hold the item at the same time, etc'. Someone has to leave the first feedback. Shouldn't the guy that is making some money on the deal be the big risk taker?
All of this could be eliminated if eBay adopted Yahoo feedback system. The 'never can be changed' stance that eBay took on feedbacks from the start was a bad mistake. Seller gets paid and leaves good feedback to buyer. Buyer gets item but leaves negative because it was lost in the mail for 3 weeks. Seller changes positive feedback to negative because buyer never asked seller about delayed shipment. Everyone is covered. If the 2 parties work out any difficulties they can both change the bad feedbacks to good ones. Very easy system. Screw SafeTrade or whatever that ripoff is.
posted on January 30, 2002 04:33:44 AM new
I think my letter to the buyer goes something like this: I just wanted to let you know that your payment has been received and your WIDGET is on the way. I will be posting appropriate feedback for this transaction and hope you feel you can do the same.
I used to leave feedback as soon as I shipped the item but a rash of undeserved negatives changed my mind. My shipping letter has not changed, just now I am waiting a while before posting. If a buyer leaves me feedback first, I will leave them feedback the next day. If a buyer contacts me to let me know they received the item, I also leave them feedback the next day. If DC shows they received the item, I leave feedback the next day. If I hear nothing, I usually wait about 3 weeks and then post the positive and move on.
This has worked well for me so far. It's too early in my change in policy to see if it is working better. No one has complained (yet) but if they do, I will give them "I leave my feedback in batches" speech and tell them the next date I'm leaving feedback.
posted on January 30, 2002 05:46:42 AM new
if you stand by what you sell the SELLER should have no problem leaving feedback once the item has been paid for....i think some sellers are too "scared" incase they get a neg so they hold off so they can neg back. personally soon as i receive payment i leave + feedback i hate it when people don't bother to leave feedback...its all part of the customer service you should provide as a seller not leaving feedback is darn lazy.
posted on January 30, 2002 05:54:15 AM new
I think that each seller should handle feedback in the way that they choose. Some obviously prefer leaving feedback on receipt of payment, others on safe receipt of shipment. I like the freedom of choice and the diversity allowed in choice.
Me? I prefer leaving feedback when I know that the shipment has arrived safely. Here's part of the text in the e-mail message that I send out when I ship an item:
Please e-mail me and let me know when
this item arrives... It should arrive
no later than (date) (but hopefully before
then)-- please e-mail me if you have
not received it by that time.
I'll enter feedback for you when you
let me know that you've received this
item. You can use this link to enter
feedback for this transaction: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=(item#)
I prefer to leave feedback as soon as I receive an "it arrived safely" e-mail (or else the buyer posts feedback that indicates that they received the shipment). About half of my buyers send an e-mail on receipt of shipment-- and of those, about half post feedback along with the e-mail, and most of the other half posts feedback AFTER I post feedback for them.
If 2 weeks passes after the expected delivery date and I've not received an e-mail message nor feedback, then I send a politely-worded e-mail, asking if they've received the shipment, and if so, are they happy with it. Most folks reply ("yes, thanks for reminding me", etc.) and I post feedback. Only about 5% of my shipments go unacknowledged... and in those cases I post positive feedback at about the 60 day point. Overall, I get about 90% feedback on shipments, and give 100% feedback on shipments.
What you choose may be different... that's great! And may I point out an annoying flaw in Yahoo's feedback system: negative feedback often results in a spate of hateful slime-posts that badmouth each other. I have trouble determining the truth in that kind of banter. eBay's system is better (in my humble and ever-so-unbiased opinion) but I wish I could post just ONE followup comment to feedback that I've left (right now can only post one comment on feedback that has been RECEIVED).
posted on January 30, 2002 06:12:53 AM new
prompt paymet is not the only factor involved
I leave feedback only after the customer lets me know they have received the item and the deal has been consumated to their satisfaction
I just had a situation that justifys it for me, a customer mails money order jan 3 I receive it jan 10 jan 11 she calls very abusive that she hasn't received her item I explain that I received her check yesterday adn the item will ship tomorow ..she goes ballistic calls me a liar says no way it took that long for the money order to arrive .
I tell her well it did item will ship tomorrow she calls back 5 min later says she wants her money back again calls me a liar among other things saying she should have her item by now
Had I left positive feedback for her as soon as I received her money order I would defenseless to defend myself from this wacko.
As it has been discussed here many times in the past the deal isnt over till the buyer has received the goods and indicted they are satisfied untill then things can change making the experiance a less then positive one
spock here......
Live long and Prosper
posted on January 30, 2002 06:39:52 AM new
Bottom line is that there is no downside consequence to the buyer sending an "arrival" email and then getting the feedback. However, there are (however infrequent) downside consequences to the seller if FB is left before he gets the "arrival" email. Feedback aside, the logical end of the deal is the receipt of the item, not the receipt of payment.
posted on January 30, 2002 08:41:25 AM new
Here's the response I received from my buyer who originally asked the question at the beginning of this thread:
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Thanks for your response. I respect your opinions and thank you for the civil response. Email can distort intents very easily, I am glad to see somebody still takes the high road.
Thanks Again,
=====
Doesn't sound like he agrees with me, but he did accept and understand my position. I wish all customers were this civil.
.
.
.
On another note, I checked USPS and found that an item I sent to a buyer had been delivered -- so I sent an inquiry to them making sure they got the item and to let me know so I could post feedback.
Well, today I get the following response (the item was delivered on the 24th):
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Hello,
..nothing yet.. I am willing to wait until the end of this buisness week.. I expect delivery no later than this coming Saturday.. If I do not receive by then, I shall request a full refund, including shipping and insurance costs.. If all works as designed, positive feedback will be
left..
=====
HELLO! This guy is an accident waiting to happen, I fear. I think this guy is using someone else's account or something. He has a pretty good record except for two deals in a row where he was the buyer and claimed that items didn't arrive (and he negged the sellers).
When he ordered from me, in EVERY SINGLE E-MAIL, he added (even when out of place) to ADD INSURANCE, ADD INSURANCE, SHIP WITH INSURANCE, PLEASE SHIP WITH INSURANCE.
Now, a week after his item arrived, he's claiming it did not. And to top it off, he thinks that he can get his INSURANCE COSTS Back!!! I laughed at that one. S&H is negotiable, Item cost, probably, but insurance costs??? I'm sure my auto insurance guy would love that if I made a claim and also asked for my premiums refunded.
Got a feeling a neg (my first) is brewing on this one. And this case is a PERFECT example of why you don't leave feedback upon payment. Yes, bidsbids, I will be holding his feedback on this one until he posts mine. This is the one time when it is 100% proper to do so. Because if I post his first (a neutral or a neg is my gut right now), he will retaliate even though I've handled this transaction as professionally as all my others.
posted on January 30, 2002 08:48:59 AM new
Not sure how to post links in this forum, but here is a prime reason not to leave feedback before total transaction is completed, needless to say, I left pos feedback and paid the price.
posted on January 30, 2002 08:55:31 AM new
Funny thing - I used to post feedback on receipt of payment. I would have about 1 out of every 200 leave a neg for one reason or another. I've changed over the past 6 months and now only post feedback after I've received feedback. Haven't had a neg in 6 months. Interesting.
posted on January 30, 2002 09:50:41 AM new
professorhiggins
I did refund her money relisted the item and it sold again
It was just so bizarre, I used bidpay to refund her money I figured the 5.00 charge was worth it to have proof of refund and to have a third party email her that refund was on the way...there was no way I was going to send her a check and let her have my checking account info. and I did want to have something documenting the fact that a refund had been issued.
posted on January 30, 2002 10:15:43 AM new
I am another seller that does not leave feedback until the transaction is completed.....meaning the item has been received.....I also think that feedback is a reflection of the ENTIRE transaction, not just about how fast the buyer paid for the item...although that is also a factor taken into consideration when feedback is posted.
posted on January 30, 2002 10:50:50 AM new
Peiklk---
Regarding this gentleman:
Well, today I get the following response (the item was delivered on the 24th):
=====
Hello,
..nothing yet.. I am willing to wait until the end of this buisness week.. I expect delivery no later than this coming Saturday.. If I do not receive by then, I shall request a full refund, including shipping and insurance costs.. If all works as designed, positive feedback will be
left..
2 weeks is not enough time to determine if the item is indeed lost. After 30 days
the PO can perform a trace (I think) regardless of if the item was insured.
You could also ask him to check with his local PO. It is possible the item is still at the PO.
Finally, no matter where you got the insurance from, it is customary (USPS requires it) to wait 30 days (not 2 weeks) before filing a claim. Explain this to him so that he will not be surprised if you refuse to send a refund by the date he has requested. On several occasions, I have sent
items by PRIORITY mail that have taken between one and two weeks to arrive. They did in the end.
Your buyer needs to wait a little longer. This will also give you more time to try and discover if he is indeed trying to cheat you.
Plus, he will most likely have to sign a statement that the item was lost before insurance will be paid.
posted on January 30, 2002 11:04:19 AM new
All good points. However, the item WAS delivered. I have DC on it and it shows delivery on the 24th. I guess I wasn't clear -- not that I shipped it on the 24th, it actually arrived at his house then.
posted on January 30, 2002 11:06:50 AM new
I usually post feedback when the other person has done their part: either receipt/nonreceipt of payment or the product. I don't wait until any or all of the potential issues are done.
Why????
Bounced checks
Chargebacks
Bidder's remorse
Inept product user
Postal delays
Postal damage
eMail problems
Visible defects
Hidden defects
Suspected defects
Defects that occur within the first year
Lousy service
Lousy packaging
Lousy product
Bad Hair Days
Personal problems
Scheduling issues
Receiver of item as present's response
Nonpayment
Nondelivery of product
Other than the obvious response to the last two items, there's no way I am ever going to have time to live around or plan for the others. Feedback is primarily for the basic transaction. If you were paid or received the item, it's sufficient to leave feedback.
Waiting until everything is locked down is not the point.
Just an example. If I receive something that is really not as described or poorly packed or way late, nothing the seller can do will change my mind. If a payment doesn't show up within 30 days, nothing the bidder does later changes the matter. If someone pays me promptly, I don't expect anything else.
Feedback and post payment communication from a bidder is optional. I figure 99.9% of my transactions are just fine. I cannot and will not make business rules for something that is statistically irrelevant and penalizes my good trading partners in any way.
posted on January 30, 2002 11:21:28 AM new
But the point you're missing is that the buyer has complete control once you post feedback. And again feedback isn't just about getting paid, but how they handle the whole transaction (up until they receive the item).
It's fine if *you* want to do that, but as a general rule posting feedback on payment isn't regarded as a wise move.
posted on January 30, 2002 12:01:17 PM new
I used to post feedback right away and then got several underserved negs. So I started posting feedback after I got it but had trouble keeping up with it. It wasn't high on my priority list so it got weeks behind. So I went back to leaving it right away but am uneasy doing it. I'm so Confused! Ugh...I don't know what to do.
posted on January 30, 2002 12:24:31 PM new
I can easily understand and agree both points here. On one hand, if a buyer pays quickly and it was a smooth sale, why wouldnt a seller leave positive feedback? BUT..on the otherhand, how does the seller know if a particular buyer isnt some sort of weirdo and decides he or she isnt happy with what they got, gives the seller a hard time AFTER seller already left positive feedback.
posted on January 30, 2002 01:00:59 PM new
peiklk, I think you're right on the money with your policy!
A transaction isn't complete until it's complete.....the item has been paid in full and has been received. It's not holding feedback as hostage. It's good business sense imo.
"Sometimes when we touch, the honesty's too much....."
posted on January 30, 2002 04:11:03 PM new
I post feedback once a week as I work a full time job and right now I'm working overtime so I hope people understand I work.
posted on January 30, 2002 04:16:45 PM new
So what if the buyer has complete control if I leave feedback first and he proves to be completely out of control and acts like a jerk? What's he going to do? Neg me? I'm soooooo scared! Chargeback? My whole world will collapse!
Puhleeze. There's really nothing a bidder can't do of any consequence that he can't do after postive feedback is left by both parties. He can do a chargeback, he can file for fraud, harass your bidders, spam you and who knows what else anyway. And what would your feedback be worth then?
Thinking that your feedback is a more accurate assessment or that you'll have some leverage in the case of a neg or a grumpy bidder's wrath is really taking a defensive posture. Chances are very good that he could care less than a hairy rodent's posterior if you neg him anyway.
I like to ask what's the value of a business practice. I can't see a value for making feedback evaluation a two-step process instead of a single one. You are increasing the transaction cycle time, make it less attractive to potential bidders, and raise the cost of doing business by making it more complicated to maintain.
posted on January 30, 2002 05:56:49 PM newWaiting until everything is locked down is not the point.
The point of feedback is to provide information (praise, warnings) to the eBay community. Unfortunately, by its nature, feedback becomes a prize or status symbol. Feedback is not a reward, it is a service to other traders.
Lots can go wrong with a transaction after payment is received. For example, the buyer can claim the item is not as described (or damaged) and demand a refund, when in fact it is a case of buyer's remorse. Or it could be a bad check. Or any of a thousand circumstances.
The idea of leaving feedback upon receipt of payment is as silly as expecting a buyer to leave feedback the moment the item arrives in the mailbox.
posted on January 30, 2002 07:32:25 PM new
Saying something is silly doesn't make it so.
If a bidder pays on time, that's really the only factor that most sellers care about. Most online sales and auction transactions are almost entirely impersonal exchanges of money and goods. And so many of them represent a very small amount of money and low value products. Do you think I am going to check a bidder's feedback (assuming it's not 0 or negative) for an item of $10-20?
I've never had a returned product, a chargeback, or a lost package as a seller. The single bounced check I got was paid for in full plus bank fee in cash long after I had left positive feedback. This is for way over 1300 auctions and sales. Maybe two bidders out of all of those seemed to be in need of a reality adjustment. And the few deadbeats were mostly just that: deadbeats.
If it's "silly" to keep bidder feedback to those who pay or not, I'd rather run a silly efficient and cost-effective business than to waste time and money doing bidder management via something so inconsequential as feedback.
