posted on September 27, 2002 12:38:35 PM new
I received an email from Paypal today stating that a buyer had possible fraudulent credit card use and was disputing a charge.
The only communication I had received from the buyer was the payment notification from Paypal, including the buyers CONFIRMED shipping address.
On Sept. 23 I shipped the item to the buyer to the name and confirmed address on the account with delivery confirmation. The DC showed the item as being delivered yesterday.
I replied to the paypal notice with all of this information, including the DC number.
Within 2 hours I received notice from Paypal that the funds had been returned to my account since the transaction was covered by sellers insurance.
posted on September 27, 2002 04:03:49 PM new
When did paypal start offering any kind of "insurance" again ?
They used to offer travel's insurnace and that link and information was removed from their page almost a year ago.
It used to claim:
"Security is our #1 priority. That's why we provide all individuals using PayPal with SafeWebŪ Insurance from Travelers Insurance. Here's what you get:"
I belive all they now offer is for pass-through FDIC insurance coverage.
I think that came about the time they stopped collecting interest off frozen funds.
posted on September 27, 2002 07:23:57 PM new
I've had the same POSITIVE PAYPAL CS EXPERIENCE as above!
Buyer disputed the delivery of an item! I emailed PP the DC number and the buyer's POSITIVE FEEDBACK left for me & PP ruled in my favor within 18 hours
Over the past 3 years, I've talked to PayPal telephone reps approximately 7 times about various matters, & I've ALWAYS received courteous & friendly service!
posted on September 28, 2002 12:53:36 AM new
kkaaz, It is actually the Seller's Protection Plan...if you ship to a confirmed address given to you by Paypal and have delivery confirmation proof of delivery, you are covered.
posted on September 29, 2002 05:43:16 PM new
rarriffle
[kkaaz, It is actually the Seller's Protection Plan...if you ship to a confirmed address given to you by Paypal and have delivery confirmation proof of delivery, you are covered. ]
Actully you have to have "online tracking" and not just delivery confirmation for sellers protection. You have to prove online your shipped to the confirmed address.
That is part of the terms of use.
According to Paypal, if you don't hit all 7 points, it does not matter if you hit 6. Miss one and you are at buyers mercy according to them.
The sellers protection is not insurance. Paypal no longers offers sellers insurance.
They have offered sellers protection for years it just keeps getting more requirments.
posted on September 29, 2002 06:03:29 PM new
kkaaz,
i agree,this is seller protection ,not insurance.
you must ship to buyer confirmed address with online trackable delivery confirmation for item under 250.
for 250 and up,you must have one more item-signature receipt.
///////////////////////////////////////
some of us who have merchant accounts and accept credit cards get no such protection from our merchant account provider.
master charge is working with its banks to make the cardholders register a code for online purchases,aka when they enter their credit card info for purchase,they also enter this special code which can only be verified by master charge.
if it turns out to be fraud,the cardholder may still be held liable for the loss.
the disadvantage is that this special code can only be verified by master charge and it will take the order processing procedure away from the shop website .
posted on September 29, 2002 08:13:28 PM new
kkaaz,
Plaese stop spreading your FALSE information. You should know from reading this thread, the OP, used USPS Del Conf. and it was indeed accepted by PayPal as satisfaction of the SPP.
posted on September 30, 2002 05:26:07 AM newkkaz: please re-read (for comprehension) the Sellers Protection Program! It has worked for me!
Is it PERFECT? NO! Does it provide more security for sellers against CHARGEBACKS than ShrillPoint or BooHoo Indirect? YES!
Of course, if you decide ahead of time that NOTHING associated with PayPal is anygood, than the SPP will probably NOT work for you!
In that case, use BidPay! With their new lower fees, you are essentially 100% protected against problemos -- just try getting your bidders to cough it up!
posted on September 30, 2002 10:29:19 AM new
[Plaese stop spreading your FALSE information]
Coonr
Why do you argue with facts? It's their terms of use. They may suck but that's how they were written.
Read the user agreement under sellers protection:
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. (Most U.S. carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service.) For transactions $500 or more in value that are initiated between November 15, 2001 and April 19, 2002, and for transactions $250 or more in value that are initiated on or after April 19, 2002, the seller also needs to provide an online proof-of-receipt in the form of a signature from the recipient. Because comparable proof-of-shipment is not currently available for electronically-delivered items, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items.
It clearly says proof of "shipment".
Were are the words "delivery confirmation" ???
Delivery confirmation is not the same as shipment tracking. You should know this, as it is common knowledge. Delivery confirmation shows the item was delivered. Shipping tracking shows it was shipped. Shipping tracking does not mean the item reached its destination. Just means seller did ship and maybe shipping party lost the item. One does not mean the other in all cases.
At most it says on items more then $250 you need an "ONLINE" proof-of-recipient.
The OP did not mention a dollar value in their post.
If the item was $200, delivery confirmation is worthless unless it can be tracked online and this documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. And if the $200 item does not make it to the party, the OP needs proof of shipping that can be tracked online. They are lost if the item is not delivered as the delivery confirmation won't show online the "physical address" if never signed for.
And which most "online" tracking screens do not contain an address. Just a state and zip code.
A seller must only ship. It does not say on all value items the buyer must receive the item. Insurance is an option and not a requirement of using Paypal.
The OP did not say a dollar value so really as they need is the first part unless it's a higher value.
"The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. "
That clearly says they need online tracking and must show it was shipped to the confirmed address.
Most tracking screens do not show a physical item.
Most delivery confirmations does not show "online" a physical address. You may be forced to order a hard copy like I did once. It takes more then a week but shows the signature and the address.
Then you must have something that shows the word "confirmed" next to an address. If the buyer chooses to remove this address from a payment screen, you must get a court order to make Paypal release this.
This thread has a happy ending. Sure the seller was lucky in this case. The item made it there and the seller was not scammed.
What if the item was lost in route?
Delivery confirmation would be worthless and then they are forced to produce other evidence of "shipping"
Paypal is always changing these requirements. They keep getting longer and they even sometimes reword and then deny the changes. Prior to 2002, the SPP did not even say "reversal" it only said "chargeback" and there was no 7 day shipping rule ect.
All this means is Paypal is worming its way from protection when they chose to not protect. When the SPP gets to 20 points for protection that just gives Paypal more reasons to dismiss protection and more ways for buyer to con sellers.
We are happy this seller lucked out. Paypal did their basic job. No more then what was expected of them. This is the exception and not the rule in most cases
posted on September 30, 2002 10:57:03 AM new
Regardless of your current rant, PayPal does accept the delivery confrimation for items under $250.00 as evicenced by the OPS own experience. Do you mean to imply the OP does not know what a USPS Del. Confirmation is?
posted on September 30, 2002 11:38:25 AM new
[Regardless of your current rant, PayPal does accept the delivery confrimation for items under $250.00 as evicenced by the OPS own experience.]
coonr - then please show where the terms of use says that.
It says the item must be shipped to the confirmed address and must be tracked online. This documention must show the address according to the rules.
The problem is you are misleading users by your lack of explination. Not all delivery confirmation has online tracking and won't show the address if the item is not recieved.
If you pay for delivery confirmation on a under $250 and you have not online tracking, you are not cover under the sellers protection.
If you are not protected %100, even if the buyer signs the delivery notice and gives feedback and tells you by e-mail they got it, Paypal will allow the buyer to reverse the payment and keep the item.
posted on September 30, 2002 11:54:54 AM newOn Sept. 23 I shipped the item to the buyer to the name and confirmed address on the account with delivery confirmation. The DC showed the item as being delivered yesterday.
I replied to the paypal notice with all of this information, including the DC number.
Within 2 hours I received notice from Paypal that the funds had been returned to my account since the transaction was covered by sellers insurance.
Perhaps you should explain to the OP how and why they are wrong. Looks like their info in directly opposite of yours.
As for me, I will trust the OP. They got their problem taken care of. Your account is still restricted?
posted on September 30, 2002 12:22:40 PM new
rarriffle,
In the future please refrain from making posts of satisfaction with PayPal's service. It only upsets kkaaz, and serves no purpose for the rest of us who have been using PayPal successfully for years.
posted on September 30, 2002 01:22:00 PM new
kkaaz, Yes this item was under $25.00, but that makes no difference.
If I were selling something over $250.00, $500.00 or even $100.00, I would have insurance with signature required. I would only be shipping to Paypal confirmed address. I would follow the rules to cover my own #** on the transaction.
What electronically delivered kind of crap are you talking about? Are you one of those that sells directions on auctions? If so, then you deserve to be ripped off as much as your buyers do.
If you can't see it, then you can't prove it was delivered. JMHO here.
posted on September 30, 2002 04:47:40 PM new
[What electronically delivered kind of crap are you talking about?]
Who are you talking to ?
Who mentioned electronic crap ?
That's part of Paypal's terms of use I posted word for word. They don't cover electronic "crap" as they is no proof of shipping that can be tracked online.
Paypal leaves to many holes for scammers.
They also don't cover hand delivered items. Paypal will let you buy a $2000 Big screen TV with Paypal funds, Pick it up in the back of your truck 5 days later and then reverse payment becuase the item was not "shipped to the confirmed address" with online tracking.
Paypal will let you get away with fraud when their terms let them. As long as they still can pocket the seller fees
As I said, I am glad Paypal did their "BASIC" job for you.
Hey, I even got a full can of coke earier today. Maybe I should tell everyone Coke did their "basic" job...
[Are you one of those that sells directions on auctions?]
No. I have been buying and selling phyiscal goods on Ebay and Yahoo for over three years and have had a paypal/xcom account for almost as long.
I have only had one person rip me off for on an Ebay item for over $350 using paypal. Paypal changed their user agreement in at least three places after I showed them their mistakes in the wording of the user agreement which caused the reversal too take place based on the fact my buyer was able to "remove" any confirmation on their address and I could not prove the address they gave me was confirmed without a court order on a "reversal".
And Paypal refused to take my online USPS tracking that matched 100% to the only address I recicived, a hard copy signed USPS delivery notice with matching address, positive Ebay feedback, Ebay notice of a fruad Ebay account, e-mail confirmation or USPS mail fraud investigation with a confessionary payment which proved a Paypal account was used to fraud me.
I am glad you lucked out and they did their "basic job" protecting you. Thank you for telling us they did what you paid them to do.
It's good to hear when one person says Paypal did what they were supposed to do....
[If so, then you deserve to be ripped off as much as your buyers do. ]
Sorry but I have perfect feedback from my buyers. I never ripped anyone off. Even the one who reversed a Paypal funds payment against me which lead to mail fraud after reciveing their item left me good feedback....
Hey but here is some inportant news. My alarm clock turned on this morning. When I turned the hot water on, hot water came out, when I turned on the light swicth, ligh came from the bulb. When I went outside, the sun sent us light so I could see the surrounding world. The gas in my car made it run.... WOW, things work they way they were designed to work. That's almost as important as paypal doing their basic job...
Big deal if paypal did their basic job. They deservice NO PRAISE for that. I deal with hundreds of item from all different companies all day long that do their basic functions. WOW big deal, let me tell everyone !!!!
Anyone reading this should know kkaaz's account is currently restricted as he did not understand and abided by the terms of use. Take his advice accordingly.
posted on October 1, 2002 07:24:35 AM new
rarriffle,
Good job in being covered, it is good to know that it does work.
kkaaz,
Have on-line USPS Delivery Confirmation Tracking does track to the city and zip code to where it is delivered to. Regardless of the use of PayPal or if you use a merchant account, you still need to have the delivery confirmation to verify that it can be tracked. If I use my merchant account and ship to a different address then the billing address of the card, I will not win the chargeback since it was not shipped to an address reconized by the card.
The difference between PayPal and the merchant account is that with the merchant account, I have to have the billing address to charge the card. Without the billing address, I can not charge the card. With PayPal, the customer has the decision no to supply you will the confirmed address of the card. To me, that is the problem. PayPal should not give the person the choice in doing that and should make the confirmed address available.
Even without the information, if the customer does not supply the confirmed address, the seller makes the choice to ship to the wrong address. The seller could send an e-mail to the customer stating that we can only ship to the confirmed address. If the customer will not supply it, then return the payment.
I think that if PayPal wants to hold you to shipping to the confirmed address, then they should supply that address to the seller when payment is made.
posted on October 1, 2002 10:02:34 AM newthechase200I think that if PayPal wants to hold you to shipping to the confirmed address, then they should supply that address to the seller when payment is made.
If the payment doesn't include a confirmed shipping address the seller is notified and must either click on 'accept' or 'deny' the payment. That is the default setting for a PayPal Premier/Business account.
The seller also has the option of requiring that all payment include a confirmed billing address or the payment can't even be sent.
The seller's third option is to allow all payments regardless of whether a confirmed shipping address is supplied.
The seller has 3 options and the "case by case decision" is the default settings. The seller can make the confirmed billing adddress an absolute requirement or remove the requirement completely.
I know that, however, I think that it should not even be a setting, in that the confirmed address should be there all the time and the buyer has no choice but supply that address. Remember stupid people do win lawsuits for being idiots (woman wins millions spilling hot coffee on her lap. She did not know that the coffee was hot).
That is just my opinion and it would save a lot of pain and suffering for both the seller and PayPal as well.
Then the seller, if he chooses to ship to the another address has the choice, and can not complain to anyone but himself.
posted on October 1, 2002 10:26:02 AM newthechaseI know that, however, I think that it should not even be a setting, in that the confirmed address should be there all the time and the buyer has no choice but supply that address
So what happens if the buyer doesn't have a credit card but only uses their PayPal balance or eChecks? There would be no confirmed billing address. What if the buyer is from another country where the AVS isn't applicable? There would be no confirmed billing address. Would you just write off these buyers even if they might have excellent eBay feedback and the item is very low price?
What if the seller had the confirmed billing address but still ships to another address at the buyer's request. How can PayPal prevent that?
posted on October 1, 2002 10:38:24 AM new
thchaser200
[Even without the information, if the customer does not supply the confirmed address, the seller makes the choice to ship to the wrong address. The seller could send an e-mail to the customer stating that we can only ship to the confirmed address. If the customer will not supply it, then return the payment. ]
I agree, Paypal should require a shipping address if the buyer is requesting shipping but they don't. That is common sense. If you don't get an address, where are you going to send the item? As a buyer, you cannot complain if you did not get your item if you never gave an address for it to go to. But Paypal is beyond reason and common sense.
________________
And another problem is Paypal sometimes does not even write their user agreement correctly and then they change it and deny the changes and have even tried to use the terms from one date against a past event. They are not allowed to do that.
This is word for word from paypal's terms of use from 2001 under "confirmed address":
___If a buyer does not provide a Confirmed Address, the seller must either refuse the payment and ask that the buyer provide a Confirmed Address, or accept the chargeback risk in shipping the item outside of this Seller Protection Policy. ___
It clearly only says that if you chose to not ship to the confirmed address you may get a "chargeback". Where is the word reversal in that phrase? NOWHERE !!!!!
I got a "reversal" of Paypal funds in 2001 and not a "chargeback" for not being able to prove the address my buyer gave me was confirmed even though I proved they received the item there?
Paypal wrote the terms wrong and they knew it so they changed them after. They should have said the word "reversal" in 2001 like they do now if you had to ship to the confirmed address to avoid a reversal on an e-check or Paypal funds.
But the terms of use did not warn of a possible reversal based on that section or any section in 2001.
But Paypal still processed the reversal and then changed the terms?
THEY CAN'T EVEN FOLLOW THEIR OWN TERMS OF USE !!!!!
The confirmed address section did not say "reversal" until after I pointed that out to Paypal in late 2001. So they changed it in Jan 2002 and even tried to make me follow it for a 2001 reversal.
The Sellers protection section above the 6 or 7 points did not say "reversal" until Jan 2002 but Paypal applied them to reversals even though it was against the way it was written..
Paypal changed the wording of the user agreement in at least three places to cover their rears when they made a mistake and processed a $350 reversal against me because my buyer was able to hide the confirmed status of their address and the terms did not correctly warn of the possibility.
THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT. You cannot make a change to cover past dates unless all parties agree.
But that's exactly what they did to me...
So I have ZERO faith in Paypal's "seller protection" or what the op confused as "insurance"
And I know for a fact from personal experience they can change it to fix it and still hit who ever is affected by their "mistakes".
I am glad the OP was covered. But not to the point of making a public stink over Paypal being so great for just doing what they are supposed to do. That's like me making a post because my last seller sent my item. That's their job. I pay, I get... A company doing their "basic job" for one person is worthy of a post on a message board...
And not everyone is covered when they follow the terms of use to a "T" as they are written the day of the event. Paypal can and has changed the terms and then try to make them retro, which is not allowed.....
[The difference between PayPal and the merchant account is that with the merchant account, I have to have the billing address to charge the card. ]
Another difference is with Paypal they can "reverse" a funds payment or an e-check within 30 days after they admit to getting the item based on lack of protection on the seller and the not return the item. Paypal will fully support their right to fraud based on the terms of use. A user cannot do the same with a merchant account.
Good questions, and I would expect you to think that whatever PayPal does never needs to be changed so here is my answer:
For the seller that ships to an andress other then the confirmed address, then the seller is at fault.
For the person that does not have a credit card, but is still verified that means that he or she had to confirm the bank account and the SSN. I am not saying ignor those buyers. Those buyers can not do a chargeback on their credit cards, they can only do a complaint. The problem arrises out of credit card transactions and if there is a confirmed address (billing address) for the card, then that address should be provided by PayPal whether the customer wants to or not.
You can argue that the current system has flaws, however, to prevent fraud and to protect PayPal from idiots, doing this takes all the risk for PayPal and places it all on the seller.
My question is why don't they. If you go to any web site and order something, you need to give the billing address to the seller anyway, why wouldn't they provide that address in the transaction? Are they trying in encourage credit card fraud? Wouldn't in be in PayPal's best interest to provide the confirmed address?
If a transaction comes in to the account, and the customer does complain. If the confirmed address was where the product was shipped to, then you would have been covered under the SPP as long as On-Line tracking was available.
They clearly do state that you must have a delivery confirmation or tracking number that can be tracked on line. My experience is that USPS, UPS, FedEx, and Airborne Express all provide that information.
If PayPal provides the confirmed address, and a ship to address and the seller does ship to the shipping address instead of the confirmed address, if the buyer complains, the transaction should be reversed since the seller did not ship to the confirmed address.
It is clearly stated in the TOS, to be covered under the SPP, you must ship to the confirmed address. Under the current system, if the confirmed address is provided, then the seller has to either decide to take the payment (risking chargeback or reversal) or refusing the payment and risking negative feedback on the auction site.
This protects everyone, the seller since he all the information to make an informed decision, PayPal (from future litigation and bad press), and the card holder (credit card fraud).
Here is what I mean, I receive a transaction for some item on ebay. The customer wants it shipped to Florida and the confirmed address is in New York.
Under the current system, the seller has no way of knowing where the confirmed address is. He has to make a decision on whether to honor the transaction on limited information.
Under a system where the confirmed address is provided, the seller can make an informed ddecision on what to do, contact the cust
posted on October 1, 2002 11:24:24 AM new
thechase200,
By default the buyer's confirmed billing address is included unless they specify otherwise.
By default the seller must 'accept' or 'deny' a payment that doesn't include a confirmed billing address. When the seller clicks on 'accept' or 'deny' he's greeted with this dialog:
This payment does not include a Confirmed Address. You may choose to either Accept or Deny it.
If you are a seller : We require that sellers ship to a Confirmed Address to qualify for our Seller Protection Policy. By accepting this payment, you are choosing to accept the risk of buyer chargebacks associated with this payment. You can use the information below to evaluate this payment:
It then gives the type of account being used to pay you, how long the buyer has had the account, and how many unique sellers the buyer has paid with the account.
You have a final 'accept' or 'deny' confirmation button at the bottom of that information. When you 'deny' the payment is returned to the buyer and the buyer is told this default message:
This payment was denied because you did not include a Confirmed Address. Please include a Confirmed Address (you can confirm your address by adding a credit card to your account) and resend the payment.
How could you make it any clearer to the seller what's going on? Sure there will be some like kkaaz that will still not understand. In cases like that a full length feature film wouldn't supply enough information to help them. The vast majority are going to understand what's going on.
If someone prefers a setup like you want where a confirmed address is mandatory they can simply click on 'profile', click on 'payment preferences', and then check the option that all payments much include a confirmed billing address. It's that simple.
I can use BillPoint and not supply the seller with my billing address if I choose. The difference with BillPoint is the seller must accept the payment, and if the seller is nervous and chooses not to ship he has to issue a refund and still pay the BillPoint transaction fees.
posted on October 1, 2002 12:14:48 PM new
[How could you make it any clearer to the seller what's going on? Sure there will be some like kkaaz that will still not understand.]
The problem is I understood it 100% AS IT WAS WRITTEN. As did my attorney.
And I still understand what changes Paypal and why.....
I recived Paypal funds. You can not get a "chargeback" with Paypal funds.
So when the section says ship to confirmed address or risk a "chargeback" you must do that. But you do not have to go beyond what the terms say word for word.
If you do not recive credit card funds, who cares if the sender even owns a credit card....
I was NEVER EVER warned that I had to ship to a confirmed address or risk a "reversal" but paypal still processed one becuase I could not get a court order in 2 days to FORCE them to compare my tracking information to the confirmed address that was hidden on the account. Becuase I never recived an address that had a Paypal status on it.
But when you are paid with Paypal funds, or an e-check, They can only be a "reversal"
So I followed the terms 100% as they were WRITTEN. Paypal saw they made a mistake and then changed it from "chargeback" to "reversal" and stuck me with the bill for their mistake.
Paypal messed up. They did not include the word "reversal" under the "sellers protection general" or "confirmed address section" untill after I made a public stink. They then changed it but would not admit to their mistake....
So that's why I think Paypal protection is full of it. I have proof by dated post and e-mails that Paypal made a change to the wording of the sellers protection and then tried to apply it to my past transaction which they can not do...
Paypal changed the terms so that you must ship to the "confirmed address" on all payment types as of Jan 2002 or risk a "reversal". Prior to that date, it only warned of a possible "chargeback".
And you can only recive a "chargeback" thru Paypal if paid thru credit card funds....
So with Paypal as of Jan 2002, you are at risk of a Paypal funds "reversal" or a e-check "reversal" even after the buyer recives the item if you are not "100% protected"
Plus you have to worry about credit card "chargebacks"
Yea PayPal 
