posted on January 26, 2001 06:26:13 PM
The mother is a state trooper so he is probably used to getting his chestnuts snatched out of the fire after he gets in trouble.
She certainally should be familiar with the legal system and should have jumped at that plea deal.
I know that at 12 I was a big kid but I was not a bully. I understood what it meant to hurt someone.
Mama imsists there was no criminal behavior at all. I would hate to be pulled over by her.
posted on January 26, 2001 08:24:02 PM
That he perhaps should be tried and treated as a juvenile seems likely.
That he is unusualy large for his age, looking almost adult, probably contributed to the verdict.
That his lawyers are proven incompetent in risking all on the ridiculous "Watching the WWF on TV made him do it" line seems even clearer.
posted on January 26, 2001 10:18:57 PMfigmente: that was about the only defense they *could* try. If this kid did have some kind--any kind--of real mental problem you can bet they would have gone with that. They would have been calling on witnesses (neighbors, teachers, family friends, psychiatrists, etc.) that could show that this kid is a can short of a six-pack. Lacking that, they had to scramble for something & the WWF was it. The fact is if the kid was so deranged that he could beat another child to death & "not realize what he was doing", people would have been stepping forward to say so--that level of mental problems would be *noticeable.*
This crap that he aimed to throw the girl on the couch & missed is just that--crap. Her injuries went far beyond hitting her head *once*. The beating had to have gone on for some time. And the mother must have been *unconscious*, not asleep, not to have heard it. Once more the suffering of the victim is being entirely overlooked as people wring their hands over the murderer's psyche & future. That little girl went through unimaginable pain--and she has no future, now.
posted on January 26, 2001 11:42:29 PM
At 13 I was aware if I was hurting someone. I sure would have been aware if I was beating a 6 year old girl to death.
posted on January 27, 2001 12:49:04 AM
Frankly I don't give a whole lot of value to the opinions of professionals who tell me that children can not form intent at a certain age or that children will never lie at a certain age. These academics change their whole view of the world every few years and we are supposed to ignore the wisdom of generations of our ancestors and rush to embrace experts like Dr. Spock who will grow old enough to have observed life a little more and repudiate a great deal of what they were so sure about.
Some of these killers are not only evil they are very intelligent, and they can read a book on criminal psychology and play some of these doctors like a fiddle.
There is a great range of human behavior and it is easy to generalize. Some people are very responsible, a word professionals don't seem to use, at 8. Some people are forced to assume their majority at 21 by law but never become adults in any real sense. There is a lot to be said for a system in which adult status is granted by a swearing in with sponsers and witnesses like citizenship to an alien, but that assumes a community that knows people. Not the anonymous mobile society we have.
So it appears that a couple of people are backing down. The Prosecutor and a juror.
Maybe even Jebb will do the right thing.
I still think that the focus should be on
the mother's deficit. According to the
article, "It is killing the mother to think
of the boy spending his birthday in jail."
posted on January 27, 2001 07:29:48 AM
Well, hell, heaven forbid we focus on the fact that this boy killed another child, and so far haven't seen anything that would indicate it was just a terrible accident.
Mother doesn't want him to spend his birthday in jail....attorney was so upset because he planned to take him fishing on Sunday, but now he can't. There is seriously something wrong a need to make a killer a victim. We don't want to punish his behavior, solely because of his age. This kind of thinking and approach will just make it easier for this boy to think up excuses and rationalize his next violent act.......cause, oh yeah, I'll bet any of you, there will be another.......maybe 5 or 10 years down the road and then everyone will be screaming about how the violence was dismissed or excused in the past......or will they still be making excuses for him then?
fishing......birthday.......gee why don't they sue the WWF for making him miss out on this...
cariad
posted on January 27, 2001 09:36:35 AM
People will do anything to deny for their own sanity that a child of that age is capable of such a brutal crime. Well too bad - that is reality. I have not seen a single article about the mother of the little girl saying what she planned for her next birthday or flying off to TV shows to plead her case.
I am so glad he is comfortable with cartons to watch and all. Let me know when he gets bored and trys some wrestling moves out on the 14 year old cellmate/roomie he is with.
posted on January 27, 2001 10:07:38 AM
Sickening, isn't it? So when does the mother of the victim get to have her say? Yes, its so sad that this murderer will spend his birthday in jail. Focus on that & forget that his victim will never have another birthday.
cariad: I agree--we'll be treated to another report of violence by this murderer down the line.
posted on January 27, 2001 07:36:22 PM
I found this interesting...
"One juror tracked down Lewis by phone in New York to say he doesn't want Lionel to spend the rest of his life in prison and wants to help stop that from happening."
"Jurors were not made aware when they voted for first-degree murder rather than a lesser charge, such as manslaughter, that the verdict carried a mandatory sentence of life."
The jury's role during the trial is to determine guilt or innocence. The possible sentence that might be imposed is not something that the jury should take into consideration as a part of deciding guilt or innocence.
posted on January 27, 2001 07:42:50 PMA question for everyone participating in the analysis of this trial and the verdict. Have you ever sat on a jury in a capital offense trial? Or for a felony trial such as armed robbery? Any kind of jury?
Never have, have never been chosen. Not sure that I would want to have to decide, especially in a potential death penalty case, but I do believe that the concept of a professional jury should be explored.
posted on January 27, 2001 08:18:54 PM
Be very careful what you say. There are 13 year olds posting among us.Wouldn't want to be responsible for them going off the deep end.
posted on January 27, 2001 10:01:01 PMBe very careful what you say. There are 13 year olds posting among us.Wouldn't want to be responsible for them going off the deep end.
it's okay, we can give them some black berets to wear so they can "feel good" about themselves.
please excuse me.........gotta go sign a petition.
cariad
posted on January 28, 2001 05:06:57 AM
If there is a 13 year old posting here very likely you would not know it. Without seeing the person to make a judgement you have to go by their expressions. That will lead you to realize that 13 years olds are far enough along in their developement to be able to converse in a very adult manner on most common subjects and even rather specialized things in which the have taken a particular interest - such as computers.
Perhaps you who are worried about it need to have a talk with your 12 and 13 year olds and say " Honey I don't want you to get into trouble. Do you know that if you take your little cousin Nancy and kick and stomp on her and throw her against the floor until she is a bloody broken corpse people will be upset with you?"
Let us know how they react to that advice.
The WB's "Batman Beyond," produced in the United States but influenced by Japanese animation, has some of the most vivid fight scenes in children's television. In an episode that was shown on Thursday, the hero, Batman, strangled a villain with two halves of a broken pole until he went lifeless.
I can remember when Donald Duck's antics were the norm in cartoons.
Do you believe that this sort of entertainment and music has a profound effect
on a childs behavior?
posted on January 28, 2001 08:35:36 AM
Japan's television (& movies) are far more violent than ours yet their crime rate is much, much lower than ours.
Why are we seeing more crimes of a violent nature by children? IMO it's due to two things:
1) kids are basically raising themselves. It's not just that both parents (if there are two) are working these days. The majority of such kids are not put into structured after-school programs that could mold and direct them.
2) Since the early 60's we as a society have fallen down in our job of teaching kids responsibility. Criminally, we never have them take responsibility for their actions--they grow up knowing that they can do almost anything & they will get away with it. That is why gangs these days use kids 12 years old & under to commit murders--they'll get a slap on the wrist (after all, they're just children, right).
What people hate to face is that children are *not* born with morals. Morals are taught. Children who grow up without firm guidance, who are always allowed to get away with things "because they are children & don't know better," *will* do things that society finds shocking. But why should society be all that surprised? It raised them that way...
posted on January 28, 2001 08:54:18 AMbunnicula
I agree with 99% of what you say. The finding of excuses and need to deny the fact that some individuals are "evil" without being "sick" or abused themselves are costing us dearly.
However, there are a good number of children who are given no guidance, who are not taught responsibility and morals or ethics by their parents, may have been abused, and even encouraged to participate in unethical or criminal behavior; but who become outstanding, responsible, "mentally healthy" adults.
cariad
posted on January 28, 2001 10:33:22 AM
Re: This poor little boy who has to spend his birthday in jail: [puke]
The little girl is DEAD, having been brutally, savagely murdered. Little Nicole, meet Little OJ.
WHY is it still okay with so many people and so many LAW makers to beat, rape, abuse and kill women? We need to rehab the whole freakin universe, from school to television to society at large to BOTH parents. NO not just MOM, but DAD too. And no, codasaurus, not because "It is the father's role to instill proper moral values in a growing boy." I find that sexist and offensive. It is every parent's and every member of society's responsibility (of EVERY gender) to start instilling some RESPECT for females in children. I am SICK SICK SICK of being treated like a second class citizen because of gender, I am SICK of women being the target of vicious violent crimes and the more insidious types of verbal and emotional abuse every minute of every day. I have experienced everything from the obnoxious and very common cat calls and leering on the streets of NYC, to having actually been attacked in MANY different ways I will not go into here, including having been spit on in a subway station, in which case as I tried to hunt down a transit cop to help pursue my assailant who had also thrown a bottle at me, I was told "Oh, that's the spitter, yes he's very dangerous, especially to women. Nah there's really nothing we can do. Just hit him with a two by four next time you see him." So I was advised to take the law into my own hands? Ahh ok no problem, thank you. Because violence towards women and girls is NOT getting any better, and this thread is just one more example of it, would it be any wonder if I DID carry a weapon of my own? Would it be any wonder if I started to "pass" (dress, act) as a boy in public just to feel safe and have access to more respect and privilege? I am a 5'2" 110 pound female living in a country which USUALLY lets the perpetrator off the hook and back onto the sreets. So let me ask you, what would YOU do?
posted on January 29, 2001 08:15:58 AM
Hello NYCRocker,
I hope you were not addressing me personally in that tirade because if you were you might start practicing what you preach by affording me some respect.
As far as my opinion that it is the father's responsibility to provide for a growing boy's moral education, I stand by it.
You may find that sexist and offensive but it is the way humans have developed. The mothers and other females have taught the daughters and the fathers and other males have taught the sons.
Perhaps your anger is better directed at what is being taught our young and not the mere sex of the teachers?
posted on January 30, 2001 09:37:57 AM
maddienicks....Hello!
IMHO what is happening to society is that we are passing the buck. People, including children, aren't taught that there are consequences for their actions. They aren't taught accountability. They are taught that they can talk themselves out of situations with tons of excuses and twisting words. I see this every day, with little kids. There is no right and wrong, every thing is grey. We have to explain why someone acts the way they do instead of saying it is wrong (we don't want to hurt their self esteem or squelch their personality). He did that because...he had no father, he was practicing wrestling moves, his mother was asleep, yadda yadda yadda.
He killed that little girl, and now HE should pay the consequences. He beat the crap out of her. Injuries on her body were the same as those of someone who fell out of a 3rd story window. HELLO?????? Unless he has NEVER had an injury, a bruise or a broken bone, you can't tell me he didn't know these things would hurt her!
Now, I don't necessarily beleive that he should be incarcerated with adults, but I do beleive that he should be incarcerated. For a loooonnnngggggg time. TO be perfectly honest, a person (whether they are 13, 30 or 60) this cold scares me.
20-30 years ago, the Jeffrey Dahmers started out by torturing & killing animals.
Do they now start out by torturing and killing smaller children???
Just my rambling thoughts on this case; I am not out to hurt or insult anyone, or force my opinions on them. This is just my MHO. (And no matter what you say, you won't be able to change it).
posted on January 30, 2001 10:09:29 AM
There is also a factor of the children not fearing any consequenses. When I was young if one of my friends messed up the first thing they would sat was " My Dad (or Mom) will kill me!" Not because they literally believed that but it was an exaggeration of the fact they expected some punishment.
Now when I see parents tell their children no most of the time they don't even acknowlege it.
It is just a meaningless noise parents make.
The children are also very aware from TV news and talking among themselves that the courts basically can't or won't do a thing to them.
Ask your children what they know about being arrested., and if any of their friends have been stopped by police. You will be surprised what they know.
posted on January 30, 2001 07:07:08 PMgravid - Sad, but true.
cin131 - hi back to ya! I'm finally home off a double shift day - eating cold ham and hot raisin toast for my dinner. heh
I think a large part of the problem is that the schools and the parents do not work together. Education should be a partnership, with both sides working for the best interest of the child. Once the kids realize that the parents and the school are working together, things can and do turn around. After much fussing and fighting with the school (I know, I know, hard to believe that I would fuss at anyone! LOL!) now, when Nick gets into trouble, the teacher doesn't send home a note, or call me - Nick has to call me himself and tell me that he got a detention and for what. That has been the greatest deterrent for him! It also puts the responsibility for whatever action he took squarely on his shoulders.
It makes me so sad to see these children killing other children. Like there isn't enough abuse in this world.
posted on January 30, 2001 07:58:10 PM
So, lets all kick back and watch more cartoons where the simpsons get chased with guns; words like slut and ho and #*!@ are used every day in television and theatre (but they cant be said in AW); watching grown men throw other grown men around the room as entertainment; a nice home grown rodeo where they wrestle calves and sheep and rooster cock fights and dog fights and lets all listen to songs that say to KILL KILL KILL. Lets do that, and debate about what the HELL is wrong with today, shall we?
