toollady
|
posted on May 3, 2001 02:20:52 PM new
hhhmmm.....I was under the impression, at least in my area, that funding, or additional funding was based on income.
Maybe our district is in a different situation because we have a heavy military concentration in the area. Parents were asked to fill out a form declaring the type of housing we lived in. Options were Own, Rent or Government housing. I believe the form had something to do with Title I funds.
(Now I need to research what Title I is!)
|
SNowYegRet
|
posted on May 3, 2001 02:55:05 PM new
toollady, I know that where I was in Fl, funding was per student, as mrpotatoheadd said.
|
Borillar
|
posted on May 3, 2001 04:31:22 PM new
From what I gather, in the first place only very low income families would get a $1,500/yr voucher. Second, from the results in states where vouchers have been used for a while, of those low income families that do qualify, 80% of the kids are not accepted into a private school.
Once again, it's a sham!
|
Malady
|
posted on May 4, 2001 12:55:01 AM new
Both of my children have gone to private schools. The oldest for 9 years (K-8th) and my youngest 3 (K-2). I am not rich nor a WASP. I am just a hard working single mother that made the sacrifices to pay the high tuitions.
There were good and bad things with the private school system. True not all of the teachers were accredited but if they did not perform they were let go. Not as easy to let go of a teacher in the public system.
Both of my sons got alot of attention in their schooling. The good: The classes only had 15-20 students. The bad: They did not learn how to handle "bad" students. They could not handle the teasing and taunting that the public school students do to each other. They could not understand bigotry when they first encountered it. They were taught to respect others. Abit naive, I know.
My eldest had to do homeschooling his last year of high school because with a class size of 35-40 students in the public school system (and his shyness) he could not get the attention of his teachers. The counselor even advised my eldest son to drop out of school "...since he is 17 1/2 they will not come after him for truancy or perhaps he should apply for a GE!"
My youngest was at the 5th grade reading level in the 2nd grade (private school) and now is just barely keeping his head above water in 7th grade (public school).
When I go to the teachers and counselors for help/advise their answer is always, "Well, if he can't make it perhaps you should try independent study (similar to homeschooling)." I figure this way he is out of the school system and his "poor" grades isn't dragging the school high GPA down.
I have seen from both perspectives and I like the voucher idea (It is MY tax dollars too!) but I think it's best to deal with this at the state level.
[ edited by Malady on May 4, 2001 12:57 AM ]
|
Borillar
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:42:47 AM new
When you visit schools where the building is crumbling all around you, where the students sit inraincoats when it rains because it comes in through the roof and they have to try to sheild their books and papaers from getting wet, when your elected representative proposes, opposes giving kids a free breakfast which may actually be their only hot meal in a day, and a hundred other things that only money can buy, maybe you'll stop seeing testing and vouchers as the first line of funding for improving education and realize that serious money and reorganization of resources needs to come first before you can implement such a program.
|
jamesoblivion
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:48:27 AM new
I think they can implement them simultaneously if they have to. Or not.
The fact is, they aren't doing s.hit to improve the problems that everyone says they should improve. Time's a-wasting and to say "don't do this remedy because you really should be doing that remedy" while not doing either is a flawed approach.
|
jlpiece
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:56:33 AM new
Money has been pouring into the public schools in increasingly greater amounts year after year. Yet the public schools get increasingly worse year after year.
Common sense dictates that the system is the problem, not the lack of funds. You can pour money into anything, but if it produces worse outcomes, then apparently there is a deeper problem.
|
tootsiepop
|
posted on May 4, 2001 03:04:49 PM new
I have two kids in private school and pay $4650 a year, the vouchers would have been a huge help for us.
Although the "hoity-toity" private schools are ten grand a year and up, many of the smaller (mostly religious) schools are less than $2000 - $3000 a year, so the vouchers would have made a real difference for many people.
|
Malady
|
posted on May 4, 2001 05:55:34 PM new
Why does everyone think this is only a private vs public issue?
With the voucher money you could even choose another public school district.
Perhaps your son/daughter is a very serious athlete. You could choose to have them attend a school with a better sport department. Or perhaps you want a school with more emphasis on computers, or art, or drama. This would make recruiting good teachers easier if they know your school is serious in that field.
This would make public schools compete amoungst themselves in developing a "better" school not just with the private schools.
|
mrpotatoheadd
|
posted on May 4, 2001 06:02:54 PM new
Perhaps your son/daughter is a very serious athlete. You could choose to have them attend a school with a better sport department.
Would bringing the kind of sports recruiting that is currently happening at the college level down to high (and junior high) schools really be good for education?
|
Malady
|
posted on May 4, 2001 06:20:18 PM new
This kind of recruiting is already here.
The school district I live in has a fantastic sport department (also an award winning achedemic school) and alot of families move here just for the schools. I made this statement because alot of students rely on this as an option to get a scholarship and into a good college that perhaps they otherwise could not afford.
|
stusi
|
posted on May 4, 2001 07:21:05 PM new
malady- what would voucher $ be used for in sending a child to another public school? cabfare? or would parents be able to pocket the money? i am not familiar with this aspect of the voucher pproposal. IMHO this is also a very bad idea. it would be like taxing people twice for the same purpose.
|
Malady
|
posted on May 4, 2001 07:29:40 PM new
The money is in a voucher form. You give it to the private school and they deduct it from your tuition or you give it to the public school of your choice.
California has had school vouchers initiative go up for vote twice,maybe 3 times...in the past 10 years; always defeated.
I remember a few states do have the voucher system in effect but I can't recall which states...
|
stusi
|
posted on May 4, 2001 07:32:03 PM new
maybe it's been defeated because of the public school loophole. that makes absolutely no sense to me.
|
Malady
|
posted on May 4, 2001 07:43:51 PM new
stusi-
I don't understand. What loop-hole?
The parents that live in a particular school district has first placement in their school. Any openings were up for first-come-first-serve. This enables a family that does not live in the best school districts to have an opportunity to get a better education for their child. Similar to what Charter schools are presently offering here in California.
In California the PTA and teacher unions put alot of emphysis on the private vs public (they had more $$ to spend on t.v. commercials and mailed fliers) while totally ignoring the aspect that a parent could also choose another public school system.
|
Linda_K
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:12:53 PM new
I believe school vouchers have been used in a school district in LA, CA. and have been used in Milwaukee for approx 4-5 years, with good results.
First year the statics didn't show much improvement, but the studies showed that years 2 - 5 there was remarkable increase in the reading and math scores. I know there are other cities and states that also use them, but it's late and I'm off.
I've read that by using a voucher system the inner-school children have benefitted the most in reading and math abilities.
School vouchers systems can be set up differently....there doesn't seem to be only one way of using them.
Here's a great resourse URL for school vouchers:
http://www.schoolchoices.org/roo/vouchers.htm
|
stusi
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:14:36 PM new
1. to me it is a loophole if it causes taxpayers to pay twice for a child's public school education! 2. if charter schools are accomplishing the same thing why do we need vouchers? 3. of course everyone wants the best education for their child, and the best medical care, clothing, food etc. socio-economics are not equitable. somehow i don't think it is my responsibility to pay for your child to have a better education than that which is provided by your school district. if everyone had the option of sending their child to the school with the best reading scores/college admissions etc., that school would be swamped with applications and the ensuing workload. maybe teachers should be paid more to work in the problem schools and less to work in the better schools.
|
stusi
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:20:23 PM new
linda_k- your link seems a bit biased.
|
Linda_K
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:24:41 PM new
How so Stusi?
|
stusi
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:42:41 PM new
"school reform actions you can take" all seem to revolve around a pro-voucher platform. since there are a very large number who do not support vouchers(as Congress showed with the votes that this thread is about, and as California has apparently continually defeated) this link you referred us to is biased.
|
chococake
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:44:08 PM new
I live in CA and I voted against vouchers. The way I understood it all students would be eligible for vouchers. So, the ones's already in private school's would get them. The inner city kids just don't have the grades to qualify for private schools and many would be left out.
Also, the $1500 hundred wouldn't cover the full cost, where is the rest of the money suppose to come from?
There are already waiting lists to get into private schools for those who qualify and can afford it. My grandson is three, and his parents had to get in line at six in the morning to get on the lists for preschool. He is on eight school lists and we still haven't heard if he will be accepted to any of them.
|
stusi
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:50:51 PM new
chococake is right that the inner city kids are in a catch 22. they are not generally taught by the best teachers and do not generally get the best books, computers, etc. such a child would have to excel to get any real support from the system. the average or below average child will usually suffer the effects of a socio-economic reality.
|
Malady
|
posted on May 4, 2001 08:54:20 PM new
Charter schools (also something the teacher unions have fought against) are run by corporations. They excell in certain areas; Arts/Music, technology, etc. There aren't enough Charter schools and the ones that are around are many miles away with a very long waiting list.
How is vouchers making tax payers pay twice? You pay once (here it is on your property tax). The voucher is just a refund of the tax you paid for you to give to the school of your choice. It does not cover the full cost of the education. Doesn't the state pay each school based on enrollment? (I recall once the attendance office asking me to make my sons doctor appointments after 3rd period. That is when rollcall is made).
It is late... great discussion...G'Nite.
|
Linda_K
|
posted on May 4, 2001 09:01:12 PM new
Stusi - From you posts I didn't think you understood the different ways the vouchers could be set up and used.
I don't feel that site is biased, I feel it shows the statics and whether or not the voucher system is working in the few places that have chosen to use it. They're aren't many places as you say, because it's voted down, that are using the voucher system. I believe we can learn from the results of the one's that are using them. If the results don't show improvement in the reading and math skills, then stop using them. If they do show great results, then more cities and states might just follow suit.
Like James said....let's do something....besides continuing to talk about it.
It used to be that getting an education was the only way to get out of poverty. Now with the schools the way they are, the 4 and 5th graders who can't even read...just being passed from one level to another....the poor and inner city school children don't have a chance to better themselves.
The schools need to be held accountable for the children under their care.
And as to your statement about paying twice for the school system...you already are. In many states the taxes we pay for our homes and the Federal income taxes you pay both have percentages that are given to the schools. Bush was just going to use the Federal money in a different way....to fund the schools that showed they were meeting the criteria, and not give the funding to the ones where the achievement levels weren't preforming.
It's my belief that CA didn't pass the voucher system mainly because the Teachers Union spent so my money opposing it. Then the arguments about separation of church and school come into play. Also, I believe, is the way the proposition is worded makes a lot of difference. I'm not familiar with the way the last one was worded, but it there could have been something in there the voters didn't agree with. But I'd place my bet it's the strong teachers union.
Nite.
|
