posted on May 4, 2001 11:11:40 AM new
The opinion of HJW & krs is say goodby and move on. IMO much to simplistic a take, even during war time (comrades in arms.) I definitely feel that is an oversimlplified take and cannot be accomplished especially when you have a loving relationship. Grief is usually a manifestation of two things...the loss of love, or the guilt associated with the loss.
When there is a more complex situation of guilt, loss of love and anger help may be needed for the living to sort out their feelings so that they can move on. Who are we, if we don't nurture our loss and learn to appreciate what we had and why we feel the way we do? In doing so we can embrace what is to come, filling our lives with love once again...rather than being fearful of future pain?
[ edited by zilvy on May 4, 2001 11:14 AM ]
posted on May 4, 2001 11:11:47 AM new
Helen....YOU are the person that has made a very good point. I will not go as far to say that counseling is BS...may be for you, but has helped many many people and sorry, due to your experience, you seem to not be able to see this. Understandable. We are not all alike.
And Ken...LOL....yea; there are those dead ppl. that would LOVE that!!!
There is no "obligation" to those you love.
[ edited by nanastuff on May 4, 2001 11:13 AM ]
posted on May 4, 2001 11:23:07 AM newReal compassionate. Take a thread where someone is looking for some guidance through one of the hardest things there is and ya'll gotta make it into a nitpick thread. Not cool at all.
I'm not so sure I believe that we (the living) are the lucky ones. I do agree that those we love don't want us to hurt and grieve forever (there are some who believe that binds the spirit to this world, but that's another thread). They aren't here in this smelly world anymore with it's crime and it's pain and it's stupidity. They are the lucky ones. Those of us left behind to sort through a lifetime of stuff, to plan the funeral, to grieve and miss them...we aren't lucky at all. JMO - I personally value the soul or spirit far more than I value this particular life.
Everybody handles the death of a loved one in their own way. Some are able to say "well, that's over with" and move on without a backward glance. Good for them. I'm glad I'm not one of them.
Helen - you said "nobody will agree with that until you experience it". You're right, but you're wrong too. Everybody will experience in different ways. It's not likely that I would handle your situation the same way you did, and it's not likely I would grieve the same way you do. That doesn't mean your way is wrong - it just means that everybody is different.
I don't believe kraftdinner was looking for sympathy. I believe she was looking for some compassion and comfort, to know she's not crazy for feeling the things she does.
posted on May 4, 2001 11:24:23 AM new
I believe that Ken's viewpoint would be more informative to me than anyone who calls themselves a "grief counselor." As a Vietnam
Veteran, I am sure that he has had more experience with death and the death of young
people than the "grief counselors" that you
are all referring to.
Get a book if you need help.
You are all college graduates. Why do you
need another one to tell YOU how to handle
YOUR grief?
posted on May 4, 2001 11:27:15 AM new
I don't want to make the mistake that I made
last night by intruding in your ambition to
help Kraftdinner, so I will move on to another topic.
posted on May 4, 2001 11:30:20 AM newHelen - did you ever stop to think that just talking to others who share the freaking pain is counselling?????? This hasn't got a damn thing to do with professional counselling - it has to do with GRIEF. kraftdinner didn't ask anyone to recommend a therapist - she asked if what she was experiencing was normal. As in "did anyone else go through this too?"
Grr. I am more stunned by the lack of compassion on this thread than I've been at AW in a long time. I'm going outside for a while, before I get suspended.
posted on May 4, 2001 11:32:43 AM new
Ken, I would like to say something else and moderators feel free to throw me out of this room, because Ken you have successfully pushed my button (and I know you love it!)..
I am LUCKY because it was my SON and not ME?????
What a moronic statement!!!!
While my father and father in law were living, I did not and have NEVER felt the "obligation" thing....I did everything from changing piss bags to sucking out lungs and when my dad had enough and told me so, I told him to go. So I am LUCKY it was them and not me?????? If I could have them back, all three of them, I would spend the rest of MY life taking care of them. GLADLY!!!
I do apologize that I have seemed to go off topic (maybe) a bit.....but, Ken if you have never experienced the kind of grief that Kraftdinner started, then fine; understandable. If you have, that is also understandable as people handle grief in their own way, whether it is with professional help or to just buck up and get on with it. That is the point. We all do that in different ways, but there is no need to be so harsh in this thread. (yea yea, I can already see what you are typing now) Janet
#1...my hubby is also a VietNam Vet. Soooo?? He has seen more sh#$@ than you or I will ever know.
#2...Last I checked, I know a few people here who are not college grads...and can still read a book.
Maddie....you're right. I will no longer let two ppl. flip my switch and you made me realize that I am helping the "nitpicking" along and I apologize, especially to Kraftdinner.
I know this is a sensitive subject and feelings run high. But I must ask that you stick to the topic and do not address each other. I would like to leave this open, but if you cannot comply, it will be locked as combative and insulting.
posted on May 4, 2001 11:57:19 AM new
Hi Kraft. I haven't any brilliant words of wisdom for you. I wish I did. The only thing I can tell you is that grief is a long evolving process. You will feel better for a while, then something will happen that sets you back to where you were six months or a year ago. There is no "right" way to grieve. It is different for every person.
Just know that time will dull the pain. It will never be entirely gone, but it will become a scar rather than a gaping wound.
Everyone that has posted here has shared with you some of what has worked for them. None of their answers will be 100% right for you. You may be able to use bits and pieces of everyones experiences to help you through what is going on for you.
I am LUCKY because it was my SON and not ME?????
What a moronic statement!!!!
So....you'd rather be dead instead of your son? That's understandable, but you can't do it.
So I am LUCKY it was them and not me?????? If I could have them back, all three of them, I would spend the rest of MY life taking care of them. GLADLY!!!
Again, they're dead. You're not. You wouldn't be able to take care of them if it had been you and not them.
Why is that so difficult?
You're alive.....so live. Do you feel that you owe them this commiseration? If so, you live in guilt. Are you going to get over the guilt? Why not? They don't want it.
posted on May 4, 2001 12:27:48 PM new
I don't know. I think that a major reason so many have a difficult time dealing with death is that in the past 80-100 years we have done our best to run from it. Here in the U.S., anyway. I don't mean by developing better medical care & cures. I mean that "death" has become a dirty word. We go out of our way to shield ourselves from its concept. Few people even have a *concrete* knowledge of where their food comes from. Children are not allowed to experience death (I grit my teeth when I hear parents tell their kids that Skippy is "sleeping" ). Very few lay out their dead so that loved ones can say goodbye anymore. There is no longer a formal mourning period. We so shelter ourselves from reality that when death occurs some people just can't handle it. They rush about seeking guidance & counseling for something that is a natural part of life.
edited cuz UBB slipped in unasked
[ edited by Bunnicula on May 4, 2001 12:29 PM ]
Consider this a warning to address the topic and not each other. This is in accordance with the Community Guidelines. To continue to address individual posters will put your posting privileges in jeopardy.
posted on May 4, 2001 12:42:36 PM new
I posted to this thread, not to say, this is the way to feel, or how to deal with it. I, myself, am still having problems dealing with my situation. I was, like some mentioned, hoping some part of how I felt, and still do, would be of value not only to Kraft, but anyone who may make the same mistake I did. And that maybe when they see themselves getting into the situation I did, to avoid it at all costs. I never, ever, expected this thread to get into NP. Here are loved ones, or maybe some we don't really know that well, having passed on. Yet, there are words over whether that is important to deal with, or not? And how to do it, or not? I, personally, never would try to point out any distinct way in which this matter should be handled. A lot of it depends on your personal experiences, the amount of love, or lack of it, and how you are as a person. Some feel more deeply than others, and some can just walk away with no feelings, one way or the other. Depends on how much you hurt, or how much you shield. Kraft asked for an opinion of her personal experience and feelings, as to it's reasonableness? I don't believe there is any real "normal" that fits all persons, it's not possible. However, arguing over who's opinion is most valid, is rather disrespectful of Kraft's thread, and her objective, in my opinion. I can't believe that such a subject as this, is not handled with more compassion, for her sake.
posted on May 4, 2001 12:49:38 PM new
It's my understanding that it isn't the loss of Kraftdinner's father, as painful as that is, as much as it is the anger over the "accident" that resulted in his death.
It's that anger that needs to be addressed.
Then, IMHO, Kraftdinner will be able to move on, grieve, and then accept her father's death and celebrate his life.
posted on May 4, 2001 12:55:40 PM new
I would like to say something about the idea that when you lose someone you should "get over it". This is one of the biggest crocks we tell each other. You don't "get over" death. Yes, you find a way to live your life WITH that empty space and you do what you can to create some sort of life afterwards. But I don't believe for one minute that I will ever get over the loss of my son. It will always be a part of who I am and it will color everything I do for the rest of my natural life. This is impossible to understand unless you have also had a similar loss. (and thank you to those who have also posted who have gone through loss).
But back to the reason why I posted in the first place-- kraftdinner you will remain in my thoughts. I hope you take really good care of yourself because people do care about you.
:0)
posted on May 4, 2001 06:23:58 PM new
No. No one said "get over it." KRS said "get on with it." Pretty good advice, even if baldly put. When I think about the people I have loved and lost, and I think about them often, there are none who would have relished the idea that I was getting mired in their loss. Not one. In fact, when I think about my long-dead husband and my long-dead father, it occurs to me that both would have, if possible, relished the opportunity to kick my soggy butt for dragging around with their loss as my "excuse"...and that is exactly how either of them would have seen it...that I was just using their loss as a shabby excuse not to get on with it. Of course, that didn't stop me from doing just that. I don't regret my feelings for them, and I don't regret that I grieved. But what I do regret is that by my actions of building a monument to them around myself, I dishonored them both. Both were a great joy in my life. And what I finally learned, through the kind assistance of a gifted "counselor" and friend, was that if I truly loved them, I would build a monument to their lives, not to their deaths.
I couldn't have done it, didn't do it, without help. Thank God for the counselor.
posted on May 5, 2001 08:29:45 AM new
I am not sure where I am headed with this post, just some thoughts rambling around in my head and heart - and I needed a break from writing 'thank you' notes. lol.
We buried my mother last Thursday - the 26th of April. I am numb with death and dying.
My father died in 1992.
My PawPaw died in 1993.
My PeePaw died October 30th, 2000.
My Gran died November 27, 2000.
My canine companion, Callie, died Jan 5, 2001.
My brother-in-law and good friend died March 24, 2001.
And exactly a month later, April 24, 2001 - my Mom died.
I can't grieve any more.
As a family, we laugh and wonder if we should start a tab with the local funeral home.
I'm not sure how to 'deal' with any of it. You struggle through. You acknowledge the pain and go on. You make visits to the cemetary and scream until you cry. You celebrate their life.
I told my sister - who was incubated in ICU when our mother passed - I thought moving our mother into the nursing home was the hardest thing I had ever had to do - it wasn't near as hard as moving her out. I'll never forget the images of her final hours. They haunt me with such intensity I think I'll go crazy.
It's odd, but the one thing I keep remembering - was a bit of gossip I had intended to tell her and kept forgetting. So, when we were alone in those final hours - I told her. I don't know if she heard me, I like to believe she did. I like to believe she was as amused as I was. I like to believe as I held her warm hand, she knew she was not alone. I like to believe she knew it was okay to let go and move on. Sure, it was pain filled and I am having days when all I can think of is how bad I miss her and how much I want to hold her again. How much I want to lay my head in her lap and let her 'clean out my ears'.
The early mornings are the worst. When I would begin the day with a conversation with her. We never said goodbye without saying "I Love you". That's something everyone in my family does. The last thing we always say to one another is "I Love You".
They all knew I loved them and I knew they loved me. I miss them all. But we, as a family, go on.
My Sister remains in the hospital where she will most likely be for the next month. It will be a long road for her. And I know everyone of our loved ones who have gone on, would want us devoting our attention and energy to assisting our sister in recovery.
And that's why I love everyone of them so very much and miss them terribly.
noteye
My thoughts on this issue have gone 'Un-Surveyed' and may not be of importance to the P.T.B.
posted on May 5, 2001 10:35:21 AM new
Yesterday, I spent the whole day and night crying (I look like an amphibian today!). I sat down and wrote a big email to zilvy, then ended up deleting it all. I hope you understand zilvy.
Your posts have been an incredible catharsis for me. I didn't want this to turn into a sympathy thread, but all I feel is sympathy for every person that has posted. I can't imagine what losing a son or daughter would be like. And for anyone who doesn't have pets, losing them can be just as difficult as losing a family member. I am so sorry for what you all have gone through and I will say a prayer for you and your families. My situation now seems "petty" compared to what I've read so far, if you know what I mean. I don't know how some of you can cope with the situations YOU are going through. What a strong bunch! .
As far as support, I have a wonderful husband and 2 VERY close friends that have helped me through the worse part and continue to help me with their great senses of humour. But I have to say, I have been helped so much by this board too.....nobody "knows" me, so I get unbiased feedback - friends, understandably, can sometimes walk on eggshells.
And don't be too hard on krs.....I know what he means. It's like being an alcoholic. You can spend years and thousands on rehab and psychiatry, but the bottom line is you have to quit drinking. I think Ken was just trying to point this out.
What can I say? I think you are such a wonderful bunch. Thank-you from the bottom of my heart.
posted on May 5, 2001 02:29:39 PM newTerry I certainly understand about the
email...I hope it helped you to write it down..whatever it was. Glad you shared with the group I am sure it has helped all of us.
{{{{hugs to you}}}}
UBB problems
[ edited by zilvy on May 5, 2001 02:30 PM ]
posted on May 5, 2001 03:37:10 PM new
Thank-you zilvy. Actually, I thought I should delete it because I was afraid it would crash your computer (10 megs!!!!! - and that was only Part I).......just kidding!! Hugs back tenfold zilvy!!!!!!!!!
I'm going outside for a while, before I get suspended.
.
