posted on May 7, 2001 09:10:04 PM new
You made the exact points, gravid in your other post above that I was going to make. So I'll just second your thoughts.
But, let's get serious here: when I was in second grade, I hd the tacher twist my ear and smake the back of my hand with a ruler. The reason? I was guilty of using my left hand to write with! That's right -- I wasn't misbehaving, I was simply left-handed (ambidexterious, acutually)
About a month into this abuse my mother noticed that I was now writing with my right hand -- which I still do to theis day. I told her what was going on down at the school and the next day she came to school with me, talked to the teacher who confirmed that it was just exactly as I said it was. Then, my mom went to the principle and within minutes of that meeting, that teacher was fired!
I've had other delightful times with Corporal Punishment. I was trying to learn the violin in the 5th grade and the teacher wasn't very instructive. One day, a week into class and I remember that I was daydreaming because I was so lost and the teacher came up and hand-slapped me in the face so hard that I fell from my seat. I was told to get out of the classroom and to not come back. I was so embarrassed by that that I never told my parents. If I had, I'm sure that teacher would have met some real violence.
The point of my reminiscing is that in all the times that I've been physically punished in school, it was never for bad behavior! And now, Bush would try to protect such abuse.
SHAME ON REPUBLICAN VOTERS FOR KNOWINGLY VOTING FOR SOMEONE WHO WOULD LEGALIZE PHYSICAL ABUSE AGAINST OUR KIDS!
Bet you still think left-handed.....*G* We're special, ya know...
Methinks your teacher got his/her just desserts for their actions....was that before or after corporal punishment was outlawed in the schools?
The question comes to mind (since I was a normal kid)....how many times weren't you punished for bad behavior because you got away with it? I know I can't even begin to count for myself...
and I was considered a "good" kid by most...
I remember the teacher in fourth grade had to get herself a new ping pong paddle because of wearing the old one out on me...*G*
Interestingly, Mother Theresa (the teacher), was one of my favorites and remains so to this day....why? Because she genuinely cared about her students and helped us achieve our best efforts.
That balance of praise and punishment has all but disappeared from our society and we are reaping the rewards of the new methods, for better or worse. Personally, if I had never been punished (and I mean paddled, writing lines during recess, etc) I would have grown up to be a self-involved, arrogant butt-head...
Hey, I'm curious...for anyone who was lucky enough to be the ice cream monitor in grade school, how much ice cream did you eat for free?
hehehe...now that was one I really deserved a paddling over...
posted on May 8, 2001 01:02:53 PM new
Ice crean monitor??? Where did you go to school? We never had ice cream to monitor and if we had I am sure no student would have been watching it~!!!
In N. Carolina we had lots of government surplus that was yuck. We had fried bologna at least twice a week and you could enjoy it all afternoon....
Made me burp just to think about it.
The schools were still segregated and there were colored people who fished were I did so one day I talked with a kid my age and he said "Oh I went to school last year but this year I haven't gone 'cuz I got no shoes and they won't let me in without shoes."
One day my Dad had his colored helper from work stop at our house on the way home to give him a book and the neighbor men came over and got in his face about having a n****r come in our neighborhood. He reached in the back of his jeans and came out with a big Colt .45 single action and rolled the hammer back and asked if either one of them could not live with him having ANYONE he wanted to his house? I was petrified one would answer wrong but they were all "Oh no I'm sorry you took it that way SIR." "Sure did not mean to offend at all." I almost fell over before I remembered to breath.
[ edited by gravid on May 8, 2001 01:12 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 01:46:35 PM new
When I was in 8th grade I went to a school that was comprised of the "bad kids" which included any kids from the "slums" and the good kids which included any kids from the east side whose parents made upwards 200,000 a year. One day my Art teacher decided to share with us just what scum we were and being the shy reserved child I was I let him know what kind of scum I thought he was. He grabbed me (6'4 290 pound him, 5'7 120 pound me) and literally threw me out of his classroom and down the hall bashing me into the lockers on the way to the principals office.
My mother really was a very quiet, reserved, proper kind of person who I think the worse I ever heard her say was damn. She marched into an entire auditorium full of parents and teachers (just so happened parent teacher was that night) and informed him that if he ever touched her daughter again she would "kick his balls so far up his ass they would never see daylight again" then stood (all 5'2 of her) daring him to defy her.
She never did tell me what happened I heard it at school from all the kids whose parents had been talking about it LOL. He never treated me any better but he NEVER touched me again.
I believe in spanking children for certain things, mainly things which would cause them harm ie touching the stove, going in the street etc. However that is my decision as their parent. As the one who loves them, cares for them, stays up nights with them, worries sick about them, supports them and all the other things parents do. Nobody will love my children like I do and no one will ever put their best interests at heart the way I will.
It would not be a pretty day for a teacher or anybody else to attempt to hit my kids.
My oldest son (7th grade) came home last week telling me a boy in his class was made to write
I AM SCUM
100 times because he was talking in class...how sick is this?
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on May 8, 2001 02:17:51 PM newchmachinist:"....was that before or after corporal punishment was outlawed in the schools?" I started school a year early and because of that, I seldom had the maturity needed for that year of kids. I got set back a grade to my proper grade of my 5th year. I received the ear twistings and hand-smacking in 1964-65. I received the face-slap in 1969. To this day, I still feel a lot of unexpressed hatred and resentment of those teachers, wishing I could have gone back to those days as wise as I am now and defending myself then. A nice daydream. The only answer: do NOT allow the government to physically strike your kids, because it will get abused as it used to be and as a parent you won't have any recourse. As a parent, I would NEVER give up my parental rights to discipline my kids to a government agency. simply becuase it was "inconvenient" for me to go to the school.
REPUBLICAN VOTERS WERE AWARE THAT THIS WAS COMING IF THEIR GUY GOT ELECTED! SHAME ON THEM FOR LEGALIZING THE THEFT OF PARENTAL RIGHTS BY THE GOVERNMENT!
edited for sp.
[ edited by Borillar on May 8, 2001 03:55 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 06:43:11 PM new
And what oddish4 talked about - making a kid write he is scum. That kind of emotional abuse can be worse than being made to bleed.
It is the sort of thing that makes a kid give up and say if I have the name I might as well have the game - and fulfill their worst expectations. The classic example is sitting in the corner wearing a dunce cap. That shows how historically institutionalized it is.
I think everyone who experianced it here agrees they were physically hit not for behavior but for appearance /belief /social class / race/ religion or ethnic/reginal origins. all the wrong reasons for sure.
School....Sacred Heart....uniforms, church 3 times a week and paddling in the cloak room...
Actually, I spent a fair amount of time in the principals office staring at that old mimeograph machine....those were fun, huh?
I was ice cream monitor in fourth grade...we sold ice cream to the kids out of a little room next to the classrooms...I had to go to the cafeteria walk-in freezer and make sure the room was stocked each day...
What fun! *G*
Borillar
We sound like contemporaries...most of my cloak room sessions took place in '68-'69...
Although I feel my disciplines were justified, it did give me a healthy disrespect for incompetant authority figures and I would have likely felt the same way as you if I had been abused in the same manner.
Personally, I feel I received an exemplary education and life values at the private schools I attended and wouldn't hesitate to send our children into a similar environment and cirriculum. I feel a parent has a greater say in how things are done at school in a private setting and also tend to be more involved, not so much with their kids necessarily, but with the operation of the school.
I guess that is the beauty of living in this country....the choices we have available to us.....ultimately, regardless of who is the figurehead of the moment, it is we who are ultimately responsible for our lives and the choices we make in them. If we don't like the way Bush is doing things, out he goes and good riddance...oops, that authority figure thing again...*G*
posted on May 8, 2001 07:30:37 PM new
right you are - there are a lot of choices if they are important enough to us to make them a priority. I can't feel bad about someone who makes their car do for a couple years more than they would like so they can put the bucks into the kids. Kids don't turn out a whole lot different because you had nice living room furniture or a CD changer in your car.
The lady that works with my wife just laid down the law with her oldest that is graduating and thought she would run off to Mexico where most of her class are going to celebrate. They know at 18 she is not ready to handle a foreign country full of fools who are there to get drunk and have sex. Last year quite a few high school kids from our area ended up hurt or in jail down there. She cares too much to let that happen.
I'm not sure that I understand your position.
It's true that some people can shop for a private school in order to avoid this kind of
mental and physical abuse of children in the school system.
But what do you think about the other children who don't have this choice? A lot
of damage can be done in four years while
we wait for Bush to leave.
There is no excuse for anybody to punish a child using physical abuse.
It only demeans the child and teaches them that agression is an acceptable way to solve any dispute. Children will imitate the physical punishment that they receive and become agressive towards other children.
On the other hand, if they are told in a controlled manner to stop
doing something and then WHY the behavior is unacceptable, children
will learn something... without being humiliated in the process. What is
so difficult about this? Why is George Bush seeking funds to insure
that teachers will have the privilege to abuse children and get away
with it. Maybe it's a deal that he has with corrupt insurance companies.
Does anybody really believe that teachers should be allowed to
humiliate any child in this manner?
Helen
Edited to add...A lot of damage can be done
while we wait for Bush to leave.
[ edited by Hjw on May 8, 2001 07:51 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 08:01:59 PM new
Nope - never right but it is nice to have options to avoid dealing with it if you don't have what it takes. Not everybody is as stubborn, obnoxious and combative as my family for example. I have known some people who are so SWEET they make your teeth hurt, and they are not faking it, they just can't deal with confrontation and conflict. If they go around the problem and leave the battle to someone else I won't condemn them.
They are the sort that have enough trouble just returning an appliance that doesn't work to the store much less facing down a bully.
I guess I want to cut people slack because sometimes I am too quick take up battle and think I could have been calmer and smoother.
Yeah it will be a long 3+ years and then what he has accomplished will linger....
[ edited by gravid on May 8, 2001 08:08 PM ]
[ edited by gravid on May 8, 2001 08:13 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 08:20:27 PM new
Guess you can't get very far being sweet.
What's the old saying...A H's rise to the
top!
Helen
[ edited by Hjw on May 8, 2001 08:22 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 08:31:52 PM newI believe in spanking children for certain things, mainly things which would cause them harm ie touching the stove, going in the street etc. However that is my decision as their parent. As the one who loves them, cares for them, stays up nights with them, worries sick about them, supports them and all the other things parents do. Nobody will love my children like I do and no one will ever put their best interests at heart the way I will.
posted on May 8, 2001 08:38:20 PM new
I have seen parents in grocery stores saying "now sweetums, sugar pie, darling...dont stomp your feet, because Mommy will get upset" and the kids screams louder. Then she will stoop down to the kids level and say "Now now, dont be upset, sweetums. Mommy cant let you have the candy right now. Be good, ok? Dont make Mommy upset" and the kid is furiously screaming and opening the candy yelling " I WILL IF I WANT!" and Mommy explains why the kids cant have the candy and guess who is losing the battle. Yeah. Right. Explain to a toddler that the hot stove will burn. Make sure you do it calmly now. Dont forget to go into deep discussion of the pros and cons of hot pans, cars that drive fast down streets, poisons under the sink to name a few.
posted on May 8, 2001 08:46:31 PM newOn the other hand, if they are told in a controlled manner to stop doing something and then WHY the behavior is unacceptable, children will learn something... without being humiliated in the process. What is so difficult about this?
That sounds good. Really good. If/when it works. Every single day I get to listen to parents tell their children in a calm, controlled manner to stop doing things & why that behavior is unacceptable. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Meanwhile the kids pay absolutely no attention & keep right on doing what they were doing. Personally, if a kid insists on doing things like sliding down the open bannisters of the library stairwell or leaping from the 12 step, I'd rather they get a quick swat on the butt to deter them than have them break something (or hurt someone else) thge umpteenth time they do it after mommy or daddy tried to "reason" with them. Same with other, less dangerous things--"reason" with them, but if they continue to do it, tell them the consequences & then follow through. I also get to see kids whose parents "reason" with them throw tantrums, hit their mothers, bite or threaten to bite, insult their parents, and generally act very disprespectfully (rolling eyes, "Duh, Mom!" etc.). Sometimes I think Dr. Spock should be taken out & shot.
posted on May 8, 2001 08:54:46 PM new
My son did the pantomime(sp?) of ja#%ing off with his hands when Dad told him something he didnt like. Dad didnt see it. I did. So I CALMLY took him by that same hand he used and said very clearly and logically "if you wanna keep that arm from being in a sling, I suggest you dont do that again. Ever." I meant it, and he knew it. He didnt do it again. BTW, he was 16.
I rather like the "you need to do this by the time I count to three" method.
Of course I always count backwards
An object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an equal or greater force
This is like my kids. I am the greater force. If I see them headed down a path which would cause them heartache, pain, injury or the like it is my job to stop their little motion and head it in another direction. I truly believe disipline is not for punishment so much as for teaching, sometimes life lessons aren't pleasant but if you follow up disipline with lots of love...not false praise or goo goo crap but genuine love, lessons are learned much quicker. Seems to be working so far but ask me again in a few years I just entered teenagehood with my oldest LOL
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on May 8, 2001 09:18:50 PM new
I beleive everything Oddish said. No others than the parents, who take care of them, love them, and want to keep them out of harms way, and grow up to do the right things, should swat or spank their children.
When mine were small like that, yes, I did spank them (not hard at all) for doing things like touching a hot stove, and for fighting with her sibling.
When they were I believe 14 and 15, we were in the grocery store. Right in an aisle, they got in some fight (one took anothers shirt or something dumb) This is the first time they fought, I mean fought they were pulling hair, hitting. I stood there, in a large supermarket aisle, and said: I'm LEAVING, and you keep this up, I will let the security guard come and do what they will with you guys. And I walked out of that store and into the car. I would have left them both there, to walk, (it wasn't far) but they ran to the car, and I grounded them both. It was one of the worst times with those girls, and to this day, I do not let them forget it! By this age, no spankings are going to do any good, if they would behave like that in a public place, they will get the treatment an adult would get, if they were doing it.
Now, almost on their own, God will they ever be???? and they are adults in the eyes of the law anyway they still fight, but not physically, and if I see it, I remind them about the 'incident' in the store.
Regardless of means, everyone in a free country and world has a choice...
My parents were of very average means and sacrificed to send me to private school. My end of the bargain was to reap what they had sown, education-wise, and to earn my own way from an early age (work)...
If folks don't like corporal punishment for their kids, then by all means don't do it and don't tolerate it being done by others to your children....
As an aside, my wife just explained to me this evening that it is now considered corporal punishment to have a child write lines during recess....if true, what a crock of pig refuse...I learned some of my best lessons in life (and some good penmanship to boot) sitting at my desk while my friends were off enjoying themselves..
Anyway, if you don't like what Bush is doing, vote him out next election...that's the way our system works. If you feel your children are in danger at school from the highly educated, skilled and compensated teachers we now have in our public schools, then remove them and privately school them or educate them at home...
And, by all means, speak out against such activities which you feel are wrong.....in a free country, it is such a discourse that effects change and fuels the evolution of our society.
In the final analysis, it comes down to choice....which is best for you and your family.....
In my case, although it may have seemed like hell at the time, I now look back upon those school years and the choices I made with fond memories of understanding and the occasional grin....*G*
posted on May 8, 2001 09:25:48 PM new
I'm still trying to figure out how:
2/13/2001--Introduced. Paul D. Coverdell Teacher Liability Protection Act of 2001 - Amends the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (ESEA) to establish a new title XV, Teacher Liability Protection. Preempts State law, except where it provides additional protection of teachers from liability. Makes ESEA title XV inapplicable to any civil action in State court against a teacher in which all parties are citizens of the State if such State enacts a statute electing that ESEA title XV not apply. Provides that no teacher in a school shall be liable for harm caused by an act or omission on behalf of the school if the teacher was acting within the scope of employment or responsibilities relating to providing educational services, subject to specified requirements and exceptions. Limits punitive damages and liability for non-economic loss.
A bill supported by both Republicans and Democrats became translated into:
Bush Supports License-to-Beat-Children Act
What does that bill have to do with beating children?
posted on May 8, 2001 09:39:28 PM newIf you feel your children are in danger at school from the highly educated, skilled and compensated teachers we now have in our public schools, then remove them and privately school them or educate them at home...
Absolutly there are some fabulous, dedicated, wonderful teachers out there. Certainly not all and having a teaching licence does not virtue impart to you. There are also many power-hungry, nasty, incompetant teachers out there as well. Rather than simply removing your child from the grasp of an incompetant teacher wouldn't it be better to try to bring about some change so that all children would be safe from such people?
Please know here I am not speaking of making kids write sentences( which I think is a great idea as long as it has to do with behavior and not I'm scum)or simply being a tough teacher or unpopular but rather truly incompetant or abusive teachers.
posted on May 9, 2001 04:23:41 AM new
mybiddnes - By removing the threat of a law suit it opens the door for almost any behavior. That is the greatest factor restraining behavior on these sort of people.
Not to make a direct comparison but it is similar to the courts ruling that a FBI agent could not be sued or prosecuted for following his superior's order to shoot an unarmed woman in the head because he was acting in his capacity as a federal agent and was not subject to state law. They are covered by the same sort of specific "shield" law we are talking about making for teachers.
It would work the same way with a teacher.
If the teacher takes the kid in the hall and smacks the crap out of them because the kid say does not believe something taught in history class because of reading other sources it is within the job of the teacher because the kid is disruptive.
I will go one step further. It would not surprise me if the teacher slapped the kid and damaged his/her eye or hearing and left them disabled I would expect them to say it was still acting in their capacity for the school and not subject to action. I think you would have to prove it was in no way related to their relationship as teacher and student before you could bring action for ant assault or error of omission.
When I was in school I remember an incident that bothered me badly. A kid in our gym class fell from climbing the rope to the ceiling and struck his head on the floor knocking him out. I tried to get the teacher to call EMS to have him checked over and make sure he was OK. The teacher was of the old "we're tougher than that" school and let the kid lay there 10 minutes until he regained conscieceness by himself. I don't think the parents were ever told he was knocked out. If he had died laying there or later that day from internal bleeding, under this law there would be no way to hold him accountable for refusing to get medical help. That would be true of any failure to get help such as ignoring the asthmatic kid who is having an attack.
posted on May 9, 2001 06:31:08 AM new
It has everything to do with beating children.
It is a blanket - a shield - that protects the teacher from being held to account by stste law for any action or lack of action while performing their duties.
Just because it does not mention a specific activity does not mean it is excluded. Quite the reverse everything is included.
posted on May 9, 2001 06:39:56 AM newGravid: Sorry, but no. Parents must give *permission* for "corporal" punishment & the form of that punishment is clearly outlined. When I was in school my mother signed the permission slip every year. I never did get paddled, though. Why? Because I knew what kind of behavior was *expected* of me in school, that I *would* be punished if necessary, so I behaved. These days kids have the same certainty that they *won't* be punished no matter what they do. Some parents will even *support* their kid's "right" to misbehave. And if a kid does something bad enough to warrant suspension...then people go about whining that being suspended means the kid won't be getting an education & is being deprived & how cruel the system is to do that!
posted on May 9, 2001 07:16:56 AM newGravid As I said, this bill has the support of Democrats and Republicans. I believe this is, in fact, only an amendment. It appears to simply place cause and $$ limits on lawsuits.
It's actually nothing more than an attempt to place stricter limits on how and when a teacher can be sued and places a cap on the dollar amount.
Right now, it's wide open. If little Johnny claims mistreatment there is little to prevent mom and dad from suing the school district, teacher, etc. to the tune of millions of dollars.
This just narrows those kinds of opportunities and keeps them within reason. In other words, it saves the school districts (taxpayers) a lot of money that might be spent defending and/or paying out frivilous lawsuits.
