posted on June 3, 2001 02:56:32 PM newSnickering like a retarded six year old (no offense to retarded six year olds intended) certainly doesn't prove anything?
posted on June 3, 2001 03:00:29 PM new
First No ones going to be to late with a Funding for an Idea :
This is not a race I don't care if your Jamie the organizer, or Cathy the organizer, or who is doing it this is not a race.
IF there is Anyone organizing a Auction Co-Op at all then there not competing for members or they shouldn't be.
anyone promoting a Click is wasting time I fear :
Jamie is not The Co-OP He is Organizing people who want to build Co-Op
Money to start can be spent buy a few individuals who do just what they always do invest a little time and money in there own computer.
You asked before if it can be set up for that little then why Hasn't it been done or some one Donated the $$$ to do it Well The first reason is because all are looking in all the wrong places.
People are looking to figure out how to put Co-OP Auction site together ,a room with a raq system of many $2000 or $5000 computers but they are not looking right in there own Homes.
Any thing Ebay can do with there tons of money investment in hardware and software can be done by a collective group of remote user just as well or better, in fact Ebay is made up of a group of remote users.
The whole internet ISP system is built by the Unix hobbies with BBS systems, in the 70s they decided to take there hobby and make some money with it and some grew into big corps even AOL started out as a small local BBS back then though computers were much small parts more costly today the average home computer is 100X bigger and faster then AOL started out when it was a local BBS with game and info with out a gateway to the internet.
IF people would stop thinking of a Co-op Auction as a multi million dollar investment and start think of it as Bulletin board system Just like the locals many of us use to dial into for chat and game and news in the 70s at local number we got from our friend before there was internet connection easily available.
anyone who is a old ham Radio operator back in the 70s Remember some of the first nearly world wide BBS system and network Usually set up in the 2 and 6 meter band FM broadcast using repeaters
to boost the signal from one drop out point to the next , the same Principle cellar phones work on today.
These were run mainly with Commodore and apple IIe computers Using DOS and OS-9 They used a system of at least two floppy drives some even use cassette tape machines as mass storage the computers had a max memory of 264KB Most of the programming For the bbs was Line by line Many using a programming language known as color basic.
One down fall to the ham system is that when the bbs was on line the channel was not really to good for voice with all the modem whine going , most were using 2400 Baud Modem sending ASCII to and from each other.
These Were The fore runner of today's web and Public internet Long before Netscape Explorer and the rest.
Back then these complete systems with the works could cost up to $10,000 since a 10 meg Hard drive would run some $1000 or more.
the floppy drive would run $200 and up.
Today a whole computer 750 MHZ 64 to 128 megs of ram CD or DVD drive floppy 10 GIG HD Monitor keyboard mouse Starting at $750 The processor on its own can be had from $250 to $450 .
People are using less then 10% of what there computer is able to do yes some run slow because they feel the need to have them loaded with the latest hot bloatware one program sucks up all the memory but the processor is bored test processor use on most computer the test will come up nearly flat lined.
Most home computers can easily be used for email listing auction and the odd tasks we use then for and have a server running in the back ground with no problem at all.
Today's Affordable DSL and cable internet connection give its user 24/7 full time connection to the internet There paying to be online 24/7 But using less them 20% of what they pay for these company are getting loaded down on your money for service your not using to its full extent.
I been around computers and there developed development since 1969 In the school I went to they set up the first computer lab no monitor just a printer with a key board hooked to a modem that logged in to the college main frame at SUNY.
IN 1974 the high school got there first apple computer with tape drive memory.
There isn't nothing in this Auction Co-Op being talked about that hasn't been done or cant be done with what users already have.
All need to work together as a team to put together a co-op Not compete against one another.
Have to be willing to take the time to learn and research the right things If you going to talk the talk and walk the walk is better learn where and what you are really walking too and Learn what is being talked about.
Right now ebay keeps getting fatter on your quarters well use to be that anyhow.
Simply because the learning curve, is to take a picture and type a few word poof your in business or at least so they think any way.
Most people out there are talking of millions like people use to talk about pennies in the 30s.
People were spoiled in the 90s with investment capital flowing like water the internet and successful web venture were out there long before IPO and investment capital and people did very well till the giants took a third glance and tried to suck up all the $$$.
Well the 90s are over that investment capital is gone with the wind most with no real profit to show for it Just gone.
The laughers and the mockers will always be, they will sit there and put Ideas down until they will claim they Do believe in the effort ( But )
The first group with a brand co-op will not win the game, You keep thinking that and the Ebay and yahoos out there will keep getting richer and you will keep dreaming of How much money you would have if only.
Folks the answer is right under your noise or if you have a tower the answer is right under your desk.
A webserver is a computer with connection to the internet a website Is a Bulletin board on the internet ( A Co-Op Auction site ).
Did it really cost each and every person in the online auction community millions for there computer and internet connection Not hardly.
Advertising for a Auction Co-op well let me get this straight we are Auction buyers and sellers I would say that's like a pretty good start right there to me.
in fact collectively we make up a good chunk of ebay sellers and buyers.
If everybody just got together now to build a co-op pool the resource all have already.
My guess is and its really more then a guess its a fact if you totaled up the value of computer equipment owned by ebay sellers it ads up to more the all of ebay is worth.
What most lack is the knowledge to take what they already have and make it work to there advantage isn't education part of what the co-op is about educate your self and help others learn what you know.
Here we all are connect to the large knowledge data base in the world yet it cant teach you that what is needed is already in the same room with you already.
Yes I am repeating about the same thin in each post here Attitude and Negative words Never Built any thing Real Success Tunes Out This Surrounds it self With Positive People and positive forces and it don't look back
posted on June 3, 2001 03:33:30 PM new
In the past few days, we've seen posts discussing several new cooperative sites. Some boasting, some bragging, some whispering, but the word is definitely getting out and compared to this time a year ago, I think we're all making excellent progress for the entire auction community. Judging from Dman's posts, this whole thing could be set up a lot easier than anyone thought, which is what I expected. It is my opinion that an auction site (or network if you prefer) should be in place before a membership drive. Start with free listings, get a few thousand items up for sale, then you'll have something to show to prospective members. That is the way I would do it, anyway.
Dman, I was given a "gift" of a new eMachines 500Mhz tower, but it doesn't even have enough memory to run the included Windows ME. I'm saving up for some RAM right now. However, because of your posts I am going to re-examine my priorities and maybe I can come up with a decent machine sooner. Thanks for sharing that info, it is exactly what I wanted to know.
Jamie, you don't have any control over what others post, but you do have control over your responses. Take a hint from PaypalDamon. He's been criticized more than any other user/organization, but he's never called another poster a "retarded six-year old." This crack coming from someone who claims AW policy is "unclear," and who expects free advertising from AW. Honestly, I am not impressed by all this chest-beating.
My question originally was whether AuctionPie is still alive and several have said that it is alive. I don't know about that, but since I don't see any real progress, there's no reason to just sit by and wait for AP to come up with a solution. I intend to keep raising the issue here, and perhaps Dman's idea of a small home-based network should be tried. It's more along the lines of what I envisioned, for a start anyway, and it's definitely more "grass roots" than buying a bunch of expensive equipment, hiring an expensive staff and paying big advertising bucks, all coming from the pockets of "investors." There may be a time and place for that, it's simply not how I envisioned the co-op getting started.
posted on June 3, 2001 03:56:48 PM new
It is very important that I bring out the REAL Jamie, so that others can see the "REAL" him, and not get sucked in by him.
It seems to be working perfectly by the way.
As for dman, I am NOT disputing him, nor have I.
I am simply trying to understand why he keeps insisting that my quoted fiquer is for equipment, when my posts state differently?
The "Napster"esqe idea he described is one of a hot topic on other potential co-op sites as well.
posted on June 3, 2001 04:17:48 PM new
Pocono, I understand where you are coming from. I have a lot of issues that I'm not bringing up here. Unfortunately, all this bandying back and forth leaves many with a bad impression, and the label is applied to the entire co-op movement. We're seen as a bunch of squabblers who can't even take one step forward without going for each other's throats. There are a lot of interested people who simply won't get involved because of this back and forth.
As far as investing, I think I've made my own opinion clear. Since you've brought it up, I think that if AP holds a membership drive, hits up the community, and then fails to come up with a viable co-op, it will further damage our cause. This is something Jamie and I argued about months ago, and was one of the main reasons AP split off on its own. I've done everything but accuse AP of selling snake oil, but if users want to invest in it, well, I've said my piece. I understand your position, but I'm not sure it's helping much either. This is the first co-op thread here in months, and it seems to be taking a detour through Tanglewood.
At any rate, I do think there's a lot more untapped support out there, and there are many who would love to participate, if we can avoid coming off looking like a bunch of babies who need their diapers changed. It's possible to disagree and still address the issues.
I agree with Dman, this business of trying to grab the "market share" is bogus. Many others have tried (unsucessfully) to create viable auction sites. They failed because their goal was not to provide a good service, but to make obscene gobs of money overnight. Failing that, guess who's out the money? The investors. So enough slick salesmen. Let's get a working model started and remember what our real goals are here.
posted on June 3, 2001 04:31:54 PM new
Once more with feeling (one final time, in fact).....
The topic here is a Co-Op - try to remember that. This could be quite a productive discussion if you could all cease and desist with the mud slinging. Keep going in this current vein and I will have no option but to close the thread.
Sorry I dont want you to get my post wrong I know im typeing and running full gun load with errors.
I'm not really trying to dispute You at all
Yes I did use the $ 2.75 million number.
The point im pressing here with everyone calling for membership drives and all the Co-op really isnt formed yet.
systems havent been tested yet heck they arent even online tecnically yet the Equiment to get these beta system up to show and for Testing is at our finger tips.
You and Many other are saying Where is it what can you Show for your time and work Well all Any have right Now is Words and bits and peices Honestly WE all could be working more on the Co-op its self here and working on the Auction site (s) and desings and have them up and running in beta form This second.
When someone come and says Well here it is X amount of time what Have you Done I dont care what the Domain or brand is we could send them to a work in progress already running in test beta mode with progress on that end going.
The only way this part will cost anyone a million is if there auctions sales on ebay is million and they didnt get to list the day before due to work on the co-op.
Work must come from many areas at once there are some of us that are good in one area some who are good in others not every one a Orgamizer or in my case as you see a write some can deal with the computer and programing they live for the challange.
I have been dealing with all kinds of interesting things here NO I cant come to you like Jamie or Cathy and say I have a had contact with profectionals with a past thick in these thing I can only show you what I have learned about this over 21 year and how I have seen things change in them years and point to hat is very posiable today.
Like I have stated Webserver right from your conputer have been reality for a few years now ICQ Napster aimster the i-mse network I directed all to in past post is one of thousands of exsample of what is being done and can be done.
Twinsoft Maybe one starting to get it I have been getting the feeling some people in this matter Are ignoring looking in some places due to the cost in time of learn How.
if the The Co-op is just going to spend time look for others to do this thing for us pay other How is that different Then just staying at ebay.
Seller and buyer want to be in the drives seat and Decide on what changes are They want to be in the drives seat you cant do this until you learn how the ship is steered.
IF this Co-Op is going to get off the ground and we are going to be in control we are going to have to build it.
There is no way a group of people world wide can run a single server From a fix location if you have to buy rent lease and pay rent taxes and all on building it would indeed get very costly more so then selling on ebay even then you not in control the people from one location are.
How ever a group of user world wide Running Servers From where They Sit, Then seller Truely Do Own A Co-Op run Auction, Build a coop set rules for servers that join the network.
there were so many people out there from toy ranch to RubyLane and many others saying form a co-op The rest will come.
Stick to The vision the vision was a co-op Were already sitting with the equiment and technology to make it go.
The answer to most of what many have been researching sits right in front of us but the Co-Op is still wanting.
posted on June 3, 2001 05:16:20 PM new
I'm still taking care of the kids but they're napping right now. Dman, I think you are right. A working site is something tangible, and we'd get a lot more real support if we have something to demonstrate. I just signed off my cable account because it was too expensive, but I'm willing to go back to cable or DSL, and beef up my computer so that it's network-ready. If you're thinking about adding nodes, count me in all the way. I'd love to talk some more about this. Steve
posted on June 3, 2001 05:20:58 PM new
BTW, I'm not sure if you noticed, but there was a link in eBay Outlook to www.openscripts.com where they are distributing GNU auction software. $20 gets you a disc with all the necessaries.
Here is the the Reason I started mentioning this Idea in the frist place, Some people Just need to be clued to find the right direction, some need pointing, some need a shove, others you have to drop a brick on.
I have been dealing with email all weekend on this matter Some interested Some very annoyed that I came out With this Public before giveing warning and comeing And discussing it Frist.
You Been reading my posts im sure over these months, I was the one who posted The (What if )thread on another Message board about What if someone came to you With a server Ready to go Now Build your coop No one got My Idea there most were very skepictical of such an offer Better look into There real intent before rush to that Idea !!.
I am the One who Posted a coop Auction site built of A Nieborhoods or Comunities of catagory with Groups of members as Comunity Leader no one got That some liked it but most didnt understand how that could or would work.
I was also The One Who started the posts and talk Of building A co-op Of Many Auction site All agreeing to Co-op Rules and standards Some people liked this Idea yet NO one got How the Idea would work most completely disagreed with Letting Auction sites in to the co-op because most auction sites are Just out to make the big profits which totally baffled me.
There are many other post I made Pointing to this Idea all the while.
Some acuse me of being out for my self because I use the words (me) and (I) to much in my Idea's
Jamie Dont tell me what to post never has but This is the third time I have posted In past months that He feels I Droped a Bomb Nuke one the work that been already done.
One Email I got even asked How can you Go out public with this Network Idea that can be done so Cheaply what if some one comes in and steals it !!! this too Has me baffled as it not new There is a far larger network of this type been built called the internet growing more everyday.
One Even wrote and Said My posts have been unfair Most Wont be Able to compete With this Technically or Cost wise this too Baffled me IF were all building a seller own Co-op Auction site Why would you be trying to compete with my Idea in any way Im working on the same Idea.
Just for the Record All my discussion and post about the co-op have been about this very Idea at frist just a clue of how it could be done then I pointed a few Times No one still Headed in the direction.
So far all I have got is tempered Skeptical opinions most say inless this group comes up with Huge founding I no one will be interest it will just go the way of other auction sites.
So I figured the Co-op Movement needed a Shot of excitement to Get it moveing the summer weather really has got things slowed down so I Figured as long as this theard here on the co-op was getting some interest I Would push The same Idea I have been Pointing and hinting at all along.
Since Many feel this Co-op is a race The frist person out of the gate wins even though many are sure fired certin it will fall with out lots of seed money.
I know if one Interested person get a working Computer On Line set up as a server Even if they Just Put there Domain or website on it From there Home computer Many other will fallow and The Egg that the co-op is will start to hatch because others Are going make a move to do the Samething.
My hopes are that when all The setting up and testing is done and there is beta sites all over that there is a co-op developed with rules for joining a co-op network and the co-op in its self.
How ever I feel that once this does start to move I will Be a lame duck in this movement with all the competeing going on I will be know as the fink who gave A plan to The Other side.
Hopefully some can see why When Dealing with some types of Plans and Bussiness Competition is not always health.
We all Need to put The differences aside the name calling and all a Side.
Lets do What The banner over the front door Says were Doing !!!
Lets build a Co-op.
And While Were At it Keep your Eyes Peeled Over head Now and then Because if these Discussion Sits Still To long There may be bricks Dropping from the SKY
I am talking about Nothing Really new here Look a fair market Look at what Ebay Is up too as well The big Difference here is that sellers them selves are moveing and doing it and it May Not Be on as costly a scale as other but it could be on a larger grander scale there are more Sellers And buyer out there then threre Is auction sites.
posted on June 3, 2001 06:42:11 PM new
I didnt see that link but I do know about opensource and many other site they came in handy when I Had my linux box most people hear Opensource and think Linux.
Both windows and linux have cross over in to each side over the last few years.
Open Source deals with makeing Programs for Windows AS well and there are Also Open source now For WinLinux Programing that Make Linux a program you can run Right on your windows Computer WIth out all the Fomateing and installing head aches these sight also give help SOme very deatailed to help you get the server CGI PHP SSI SMTP and other Systems for Windows working.
posted on June 3, 2001 06:54:14 PM new
Hi, Dman. My kids are screaming for dinner, but I just want to slip in a quick word. You've been bringing this up for a while, but I guess I did need a brick dropped on me. I didn't realize how cheaply it could be done, by creating a home-based network (for lack of a better phrase). As far as secrecy and whether you should discuss it, I've already said I think trying to grab "market-share" is silly and I see no reason to hide what anyone is doing. No, I don't think Yahoo or eBay can or will pre-empt the co-op though I know others hold this opinion.
I'm sorry to hear that AuctionPie isn't hot on the idea. I have no concern about that. I don't resent AP, and I don't insist my own ideas are the best. The goal is to build a working co-op, and there may be several routes that reach the same destination. As far as being known as "the fink who gave a plan to the other side," I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think a lot more people would be glad to see it. AuctionPie has never been very co-operative. That's something we all have to just deal with.
I've thought about doing this solo, and through a big corporation. A small group of five or ten folks operating little servers didn't occur to me. It could be just the key.
I don't dispute that sites can be set up and run relatively cheaply. Niche sites.
I do dispute whether a site with the volume and diversity that a generalized auction co-op anticipates can be set up and run relatively cheaply.
And trotting out "experts" is an exercise in futility. The question isn't whether something can be done or has been done. The question is whether the co-op as you envision it is going to be done.
Hello Shaz,
Along the same lines as my response to Dman, I don't see any relevance to the number of folks who subscribe to your newsletter or the percentage who indicate they are buyers only.
Where is the co-op? The site where sellers can list items and buyers can bid on them?
From what I have seen here over the past 6 months, there is lots of interest and very little willingness to invest (money, time, expertise) in making a co-op a reality.
I think you all have bitten off far more than you can chew.
I think you are mistaking indications of interest as indications of willinginess to take risk or invest money.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree by attempting to create a generalized auction co-op.
I think you are naive and unrealistic in believing you can create a commercial endeavor on the scale you want on a shoestring.
posted on June 4, 2001 08:58:44 AM new
Hi Codasaurus,
I am speaking for myself and Auctionpie when I state this. (I just wanted to clarify)
If we wanted a shoestring site it would be up by now. We have been working diligently to sift through the many options and build what we hope will be a successful, safe, and stable selling platform for sellers which in my opinion will also benefit bidders.
Just remember that so far free sites get the least results and the site that charges sellers the most gets the best. You can draw a correlation to that if you wish.
You of course are entitled to your opinion and while you have stated that you are only a bidder and have a strong opinion that we are doomed to failure; you have in the past made a good suggestion or two!
Just because you don't see the light doesn't mean it's not at the end of the tunnel.
We have a site up. I don't know if you've been there but it's there and we have a newsletter which I'm not sure you recieve or not?
There's been a lot of work by quite a few people and believe it or not we are pretty much on schedule and should be up in time for the Xmas holiday season.
We are very careful though. I won't call for the membership drive for example unless I really feel we can hit our goals. And I have no qualms about delaying our opening if we aren't truly ready.
I don't make big promises or say too much here or elsewhere because I believe in not burning bridges. You can only cry fire so many times.
And it's important too for folks to realize that if we do say we're going to do something that we do it and that they can rely on what we say.
This has cost myself and our group some support in the short run but in the end I feel it can only help. It takes very little to trash ones name!
So to answer your questions, things are humming. Do you want to help??
posted on June 4, 2001 09:04:17 AM new
Codasaurus, your last post is an "exercise in negativity." Okay, so you don't think it can be done. You've said that already. What is to be gained by raining on everyone's parade?
If we wanted a shoestring site it would be up by now.
Yes, but what are your real criticisms, other than the "shoestring site" as you call it is far less expensive and can be assembled quicker than any other type of site? Your idea is to hire a bunch of expensive pros. That's no guarantee of success, and carries a lot more risk.
As for, "the free sites get the least results and the most expensive site gets the best results," just where are you heading with THAT?
posted on June 4, 2001 09:33:36 AM new
I'll answer any point or criticism that's put politely Steve.
"Yes, but what are your real criticisms, other than the "shoestring site" as you call it is far less expensive and can be assembled quicker than any other type of site? "
I don't have any criticism per se. Simply from my research a site like this can't work with today's tech on a large scale. One of the biggest beefs regarding Ebay right now is that it always is down. Have you ever used Napster! It's a nice idea that Rich has but even he hasn't seen any tests that indicate that it can work to certain standards with millions or even thousands of users. Our site will not be handing out the occasional free e postcard!
"Your idea is to hire a bunch of expensive pros. That's no guarantee of success, and carries a lot more risk. "
Steve please do not put words in my mouth (or anyone elses) You have done this before and it really bugs someone as I'm sure it would bug you if someone did it to you.
I have never purported that this is the route that we are taking. You do need capable people to help with any successful business. We have had talks with partnering with the people who would benefit most with a successful site of this nature and have had some really good results from these conversations.
"As for, "the free sites get the least results and the most expensive site gets the best results," just where are you heading with THAT? "
All I'm saying is that my main goal with AP is to create a safe, stable and successfull site for sellers. Sell through is very important. If the seller isn't selling it really doesn't matter how cheap the site was to put up or how wonderful I am. Ya ever hear the phrase "It takes money to make money?"
It doesn't mean we have to spend 2.75 million dollars like someone else suggested but we will have to spend some loot!
posted on June 4, 2001 11:19:07 AM new
Jamie, first let me say that I am glad you are willing to discuss some of these issues openly. It increases my respect for AuctionPie.
I'm also noting that it seems we've done a bit of an about-face. I was always looking five years down the road, while you wanted to get things moving faster. (My opinion, it goes without saying.)
Regarding a small, home-based network. No one is saying that is the be-all and end-all solution. I think one of Dman's points is that if you have a site up and running, such as the network he pointed to, it is something tangible that interested parties can see, can get a feel for. That is a big advantage. Okay, so you've got a domain and a mailing list. So do I. "A domain and mailing list doth not a co-op make."
No one is saying that the same small network can support a million users. But it is somewhere that a co-op could plant a flag, that sellers can hang their hat and say, "Look, here's what we've done, this is what it looks like." And, yes, I think it can support thousands of users. Okay, so a site like that may need to be upgraded a couple of years down the road. On the other hand, it doesn't require a huge capital investment, it doesn't require huge listing, fvf or membership fees. Any money that the network makes can comfortably go back into advertising, staff or hardware. I say can, but in my opinion that is still the wrong direction.
If you're listening to what Dman is saying, he's not talking about handing out an occasional postcard. He knows what the network is capable of doing, and also what we require. He knows a lot more about it than me, and if he says it can be done, I believe him. At any rate, what is the risk? Almost minimal. Just adding a bit of memory to your computer, and paying for cable or DSL connection. That is a safe, conservative investment. I am willing to invest my own time in learning how to network. And it is a lot closer to a co-op than any model I've seen so far.
As for putting words in your mouth, I'm not doing that. When you were talking about a membership drive six months ago, you told me you wanted to hire "the best lawyers money could buy." That is a direct quote. You also said repeatedly that you wanted to hire your own "Meg Whitman." I've said there may be several routes that arrive at a successful co-op, but in my opinion you are putting the horse before the cart. And since we're talking about other people's money, I think a bit of restraint is called for. If you succeed in building a co-op, I will be the first to shake your hand. But I also observe that your intolerant attitude has cost the co-op movement a lot of support.
From what I've observed of your plans, your comments and your "questions of the day," the co-op that you build will be at least as expensive as selling on eBay. That goes against my persoal vision of a co-op, which is (in part) a respite from eBay's ever-increasing fees. Also, I think it is impractical. Unless you can deliver buyers immediately, no seller will pay comparable fees to list at the co-op. Ideology is one thing, but everyone, especially "small" sellers, those most at risk on eBay, are more concerned with their own pocketbooks. To deliver lots of buyers, you need to spend a bundle on advertising, and so on, which puts the co-op right in the same boat with the other fat cat auction sites. You're not talking grass roots movement anymore, you're talking about a commercial enterprise, you're talking about building a monolith. I believe you are focusing more on bringing money into the co-op than on providing an outlet for sellers to trade.
I know I'm being a bit extreme but I am trying to make a point. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the last part of your post above has me really confused. It takes money to make money? Plenty of auction sites with that philosophy have crashed and burned. Mega-bucks is no guarantee of success. We're trying to create an alternative trading site, and that requires some thinking outside the box.
AOL, CompuServe, eBay ... they all started out as tiny, hole-in-the-wall bulletin boards. They succeeded because they provided a valuable service, not because they charged huge fees. And while they may have lost site of their original goals, they were not built upon a co-op philosophy. That is our "niche."
Take a look at SnapRat. Run by a single kid out of his bedroom. No startup costs. Five thousand new collectibles auctions were listed there in the last two weeks. In my opinion, that is the model we should be looking at. Once the site is up and running, once there is a working model to demonstrate, then we can start talking about membership funding, but only to the degree necessary. I think we should be offering all listings free, without fvf, until the co-op has built its own momentum. That doesn't mean a lot of junk listings. We can allow 10 free listings at any one time, no duplicate auctions and no multiple IDs, to reduce the amount of junk. That way sellers will bring the best stuff to the co-op first. Additional listings could be charged a fee. But to charge an admission fee just to walk in the door is a mistake, IMHO. It is simply not necessary.
What are you offering for your membership fee? A chance to impress the media? A say in how the site is run? We're talking about a co-op here, not a group of investors placing rules and restrictions upon a larger body. Once the site is up and running, once there are hundreds of categories, then yes, start charging a small membership fee. I think we'll get all the support and advertising we need for free. So many sellers are looking for an escape from eBay, but as soon as they move to a site, they get clobbered with new fees. That is everyone's concern. The co-op should be different. Add a few well-timed articles, and support from TAG, AuctionUsers and MAM, and the idea will catch fire. Okay, so we won't blow eBay out of the water in the first week. So what? It will be enough that the alternative exists. That should be our goal. Once the co-op starts getting featured in the Wall Street Journal, then let's talk about improving the network. (If it's a matter of bringing a few home-based nodes on board, it will be no big deal.)
posted on June 4, 2001 11:22:08 AM new
'Just want to add, that if Dman says a home-based network can support a million users, I believe it. And yes, it does have many advantages over housing a stack of servers in some office.
You only have one shot to go for it and then the novelty is done with. I read another thread here where some goofball started his site live and then asked folks to help him as he went. When I see a new customer I want them to be impressed with the first impression of my site/widget/whatever. I don't want to have to tell them that it'll be ready on Monday or that they have to learn how to work some software!
That won't work. Our research basiclly shows that most sellers are waiting to see and then use a site, whether ours or someone elses.
If you wish to run with Rich on this go for it. Since I've started every single volunteer I've had has been lured away with big promises that haven't amounted to much.
It's comes with the nature of this kind of thing.
There will probably be as many groups trying to get seller sites up as there are sites!
Snaprat is a great site. I wish the owner would return an email!
The point is that Auctionpie is going in a direction I and several other folks believe in. You don't have to. It doesn't make you or anyone else a worse person if they don't agree with us!
Wish you the best of luck. I just don't want you (or anyone else!) to misquote me. Your example is grossly out of context.
"hire "the best lawyers money could buy." That is a direct quote. " This is only part of a direct quote and I stand by it. I think a seller supported and driven site should invest in itself as much as possible!!
Why on earth wouldn't any site not want the best that it could afford!?
And speaking of afford. Our current business model is keeping things simple. We are going to ask our membership to pay a small montly list fee (under $30.00) with no FVF. Folks who choose not to be a member will have a ten cent list fee.
Any changes to our fee structure will have to be member approved. Don't see too many sites offering that do you??
It's all about results and goals. You find the necessary goals and then get the results!!
posted on June 4, 2001 01:45:15 PM new
The full monty?? Well, at least I know what to expect from AuctionPie!
"You only have one shot to go for it and then the novelty is done with."
I don't know what you base that on. It assumes that "novelty" is important to success. To turn the criticism around, novelty isn't much of a benefit if the site can't deliver.
I'm glad you have made your fee structure a bit more public. It does relieve some of my concerns. (I still think it can be done better and cheaper.) However, as to the statement about hiring lawyers, I stated the context. The necessity of a membership drive has been long discussed by us. Since you wanted me to play treasurer, I felt it was my duty to oppose what I felt was a poorly-thought out plan for spending money before we had even laid the first "brick" of our foundation.
I don't know if you're following Dman's comments, but not every co-op user or member would be required to maintain their own server. For most members, it would be completely transparent. A small handful of servers, right from our own home computers, would be enough to create a stable network. There's no learning curve at all, except for five or ten people. Even that is minimal. Compare it to the cost of buying a stack of $20,000 servers, or renting space from an existing auction house. And then paying salaries to maintain the beast. Anybody got a tourniquet?
"Since I've started every single volunteer I've had has been lured away with big promises that haven't amounted to much."
We both know that is ridiculous. You have run off every possible avenue of support. I'm not going to go into that here, let's let it be. However, I will point out that AuctionPie faithfuls purposely destroyed any cooperative effort through dedicated troll campaigns. The evidence is right here in this thread, and you know what I mean.
I don't care about personalities, I only care about creating a viable alternative trading site. I will put Windows NT on my computer and host my own domain. Hopefully with Dman's help a few more users will do the same, we'll spring for the free auction software and get a network up. I'm not trying to compete with you or "best" you or "first" you. I say this because I expect another harassment campaign from AP to stop any new effort. You see this as a personal issue, a betrayal. It is not. It is a matter of each person following their own vision.
If four or five other co-op auction sites are created, some niche sites, an auction network, an auction house, whatever ... it is for everyone's benefit. It shows there are alternatives to eBay, and other philosophies besides "bleed your customers dry, then discard them." It will be enough for eBay to notice that sellers will no longer play victim to eBay's continuing abuses. So let's stay away from "my co-op/your co-op." It makes us all look like fools.
posted on June 4, 2001 02:10:21 PM new
Steve most of what you're talking about was a long time ago. A lot of things have come to pass and become available to Auctionpie. There's no need to buy a $20,000 server!!
"We both know that is ridiculous. You have run off every possible avenue of support. I'm not going to go into that here, let's let it be. However, I will point out that AuctionPie faithfuls purposely destroyed any cooperative effort through dedicated troll campaigns. The evidence is right here in this thread, and you know what I mean. "
Steve this is why you are not a part of Auctionpie. The troll I think you are mentioning has done more constructive work than you or most others. If you wish to debate any point I'm willing too, but not if you break AW guidelines and make personal attacks. I won't do that anymore and if you insist on doing it then I will not address you anymore. I want to be very clear about that. As for not mentioning things I have nothing hidden regarding Auctionpie.
Your statement is completely untrue. Nobody has ever been run off from our group and never will. The facts are there for anyone to look at. You were not run off even at the beginning. You disagreed with the path I was going on and attacked me on the boards here. The posts are still available.
Yes, I did hit back and I regret that. I won't get into that ever again so please tone it down if you want me to answer your questions here.
Auctionpie will not be using Rich's network theory. I wish you and anyone else doing their own thing the best of luck.
As for Ebay, they do many things very well and manage with all of their breakdowns to make millions of people a lot of money. By creating a seller based site we just want to disburse the proceeds to different people! Sellers and bidders!!
posted on June 4, 2001 03:12:52 PM newThe troll I think you are mentioning has done more constructive work than you or most others.
I guess we disagree. I don't consider spamming and trolling to be "constructive work."
You were not run off even at the beginning. You disagreed with the path I was going on and attacked me on the boards here. The posts are still available.
Please get your facts straight. You came to me. We disagreed on every issue down the line. You left. I don't think either one of us wants to dredge that up again.
Jamie, if only AuctionPie could allow room for other opinions and other ideas. That is what cooperation is about. From the very start, you wanted to hold a membership drive and have a site up and running within 30 days. Every single person wanted a 90-day target. We even took our first vote on it. That was one of the reasons you left. Now here it is, not thirty days later, not ninety days later, but five months later. Your membership drive hasn't materialized and you're still struggling to bring your site about. The irony is remarkable. Please take a look back and ask yourself what was really accomplished.
AuctionPie trolled, spammed and lured away as much co-op support as it could. They actively prevented any other co-op effort or discussion. That is a beef I have, but not with you. Now, as one poster suggested, the smoke has cleared a bit. It's an important issue and I would like to discuss it again. I'm glad your site is moving forward, and hopefully it will be a merry Christmas for all auction sellers. There is still interest and avenues that haven't been explored. If you want to discuss AuctionPie, or particulars, that's great. If not, that's okay too. But please remember that AuctionPie is just like any other venue being discussed in these forums. I try to give praise where praise is due, and to be fair in any criticism I may make. I have commented many times on your hard work, and on your vision. And I know that probably neither of us will win any personality contests. Good luck to us all.
posted on June 4, 2001 03:55:27 PM new
Steve there's opinion and then there's slander and libel. Auctionpie nor myself or anyone of our management team have ever trolled or spammed anyone. For you to say that is just not proper unless you can back that up.
Please do not address any further questions to myself or Auctionpie as I have nothing further to say to you.
And if you're bewildered simply read your last post.
Nothing personal but nobody will put up with this sort of crap!
Our door is and has always been open. Nobody has ever been driven away. People are free to post what they wish and open threads on our boards. We have proven this with the test of time.
Please refrain from further statements like these unless you want to have legal action taken.
posted on June 4, 2001 05:16:07 PM new
Can anyone tell me what a DAL RS-422 interface is, and would it be useful in setting up a network? Someone is holding one for me.
It's constantly bewildered me why this issue causes some much grief at times?
I have posted hundreds of times regarding the building of a seller driven site and have gone through far too many vile comments and other such stuff.
I can ignore the personal attacks but when it comes to misquotes or mistruths about what's been said or done by myself or anyone connected with Auctionpie or the co-op movement I try to clarify.
That's why I entered this thread in the first place!
If anyone wants to disagree with a position or pose a question I'm more than happy to discuss or answer.
Please all, leave me personally out of any of this mayhem. Even I have my limit and while I know a few would be happy if I stopped posting would it really gain anyone anything?? If you are so against the seller driven movement why not simply go and bother someone else or start your own hate string??
We have a group of several hundred. There are at least several hundred others in various smaller groups and probably thousands waiting to see what happens. This is pretty exciting to me and whether Auctionpie or another group is successful all sellers will potentially benefit.
I appeal to all concerned that this space be used properly. Poor AW shouldn't have to have this thread littered with Mods.
Let's discuss the issues and find some common ground.
