posted on June 23, 2001 03:57:41 PM
Know what it reminds me of? Those commercials where the humanitarian is walking down a poor section in a third world country, with a little girl in tow, whining "This beautfiul little girl has to walk down this filth encrusted street barefoot, because she has no shoes". Kids are being "made" everyday, and the world is supposed to support them because the ones making them DON'T CARE.
posted on June 23, 2001 04:36:54 PMJL:Even when I thought maybe she needed help more than being strapped into "ole sparky", I still felt for the kids. She shouldnt have been left alone with them. I am trying to understand your POV. DO you mean no murder has an acceptable excuse? So if a man rapes and beats a woman within one inch of her life it is not acceptable for her to take revenge and to kill him? Let's be honest: a guy who does that isn't going to get much time, not the kind of time he deserves. I would be much happier if slime like that was taken off the face of the earth. I am just trying to "get" your POV. We all agree murder is a horrible crime, but the death penalty is murder. Is murder an excuse for murder?
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posted on June 23, 2001 04:46:35 PMKids are being "made" everyday, and the world is supposed to support them because the ones making them DON'T CARE.
What do you expect when BC is not readily made available to all women who have reached puberty. I have heard that some people want to outlaw birth control pills because we "shouldn't have sex until we are married". Of course I am married and don't want kids, where does that leave people like me?
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posted on June 23, 2001 05:16:43 PM
The word murder is being used rather loosely around here. Killing does not equal murder. Murder is unlawful killing. It has a legal definition.
The death penalty ordered by law is not murder, any more than the killing of soldiers by soldiers in war is considered murder.
posted on June 23, 2001 05:26:35 PM
I think part of the problem is in trying to lump all of the mentally ill into one basket. It would be like saying that the common cold and malaria are the same. There may be some commonalities between the two but they are not the same in symptoms, treatment or degree of effect.
Mental illness is no different. There is a high percentage of people who believe that "someone or something" else has to be responsible for their actions. Whether it's a sorry childhood, an abusive husband or society in general. Those people have a cold. IMO, they are completely responsible for their actions regardless of what may have happened to them in the past. They aren't mentally ill. They're suffering from mental duress - that's a big difference and not a cause that I'm sypathetic to when used as an excuse for violence.
Then there are the people who do not consciously make the decisions about how their mind operates. They see things that aren't real and believe things that no rational person would possibly believe. They don't choose to believe it - there's no debate for them. It's just how they honestly believe things are. It doesn't occur to a delusional person that their reality is not the same reality as everyone elses. Those people have malaria.
When you can stop lumping them all into one category - then you'll begin to understand mental illness.
Until then you'll just believe everyone has a nasty cold. It is difficult to believe that mothers are brought into mental health care facilities every single day that have either harmed their children or expressed the desire to. Most often these are not evil deviants but woman who through a medically diagnosed psychosis have convinced themselves as Andrea Yates appears to have - that their children are somehow defective and that they are "helping" them. I lost count of the number of women who came through the institute believing that "God" had told them that the "devil" was in their children... literally have lost count but it wasn't a small number. The fact that she succeeded, the fact that she drowned the children, the fact that there were five children all seems to make her case different. But, this kind of thing either happens or more often is threatened or attempted every single day all across the world.
Talk to mental health care professionals. Visit a psychiatric hospital. Read journals. Paranoid delusions, even parents killing or attempting to kill their children is just not as uncommon as we would like to believe.
If you choose to ignore the truth and decide that every person must be suffering from the common cold then you are choosing to do nothing to help the next potential victims.
posted on June 23, 2001 05:48:03 PM
caravaggio, BC can be in the form of ABSTINENCE. If those people they show, covered with flies, bellies protruding out due to worms, bones poking out due to starvation were so listless from malnutrition, WHY would they take the energy and time to make babies? They aren't stupid. They know what the results are aftering having sex. To me, it shows a lack of caring about the children they bring in to that hell. Why should they worry, when there are bleeding hearts everywhere, urging for handouts because THEY didn't think about what laying on that straw mat would result in. So no, they dont need birth control. They need to keep their legs shut and pants hitched up.
(Edited to add that I am refering to the ads on television about third world countries. If you dont want children, then you know how to avoid having them, right? And, if you were in that situation, wouldnt you do the same there as here? To know you cant take care of yourself, much less a child, would you not bother to make sure none came forth? Of course).
[ edited by hepburn on Jun 23, 2001 05:52 PM ]
posted on June 23, 2001 05:54:55 PM
They do need birth control and the kids must be fed and taken care of. What kind of world would hold the children responsible for the mistakes of their parents.
posted on June 23, 2001 06:10:46 PM
"So if a man rapes and beats a woman within one inch of her life it is not acceptable for her to take revenge and to kill him?"-caravaggio
It really scares me that you would compare a rapist to those children. Wow. The kids did not do anything to deserve being murdered. The rapists can suffer whatever fate the woman could muster as far as I'm concerned, and if she takes his life to save her own, good for her. But for you to compare that to the murder of those innocent children is really disturbing.
posted on June 23, 2001 07:21:32 PMIt really scares me that you would compare a rapist to those children. Wow. The kids did not do anything to deserve being murdered. The rapists can suffer whatever fate the woman could muster as far as I'm concerned, and if she takes his life to save her own, good for her. But for you to compare that to the murder of those innocent children is really disturbing
Oh my God! Where did I compare those babies to a rapist? I am a disturbed person. Thanks for noticing. I am getting even more disturbed by the moment and may have a psychotic episode. I will alert my family to hide the knives and pills. I am trying to figure out where you are coming from. I am not arguing with you, just trying to see your POV. Are you saying murder is murder is murder and cannot be justified no matter what? This woman is beginning to sound less like a person who needs mental care and more like a woman who seriously needs to have a cinder block tied around her ankles and thrown off a Bridge. She had "thought" about it for while before she did it, she called the police and her husband after, she calmly chased the last child down and held him under the water and she laid her kids out in the bed side by side and covered them with a sheet (except for one?). She may have been mentally ill but she sounds to me like she planned this. The major sticking point for me is the fact that she called the police and her family afterwards. The more I think about that the more I believe that she knew what she was doing. It is nice to see, however, that criminals can be rehabilitated and make a contribution to society.
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posted on June 23, 2001 07:31:17 PM
She may still be mentally ill, even if she planned the murders. Obsessive thoughts or
planning are commonly found in mentally ill patterns of behavior.
posted on June 23, 2001 07:33:28 PMThey do need birth control and the kids must be fed and taken care of. What kind of world would hold the children responsible for the mistakes of their parents.
Thank you, Helen. That was my point exactly. Maybe if we gave them education and BC we wouldnt need to take care of and feed them. It is not reasonalbe to think that they will not have sex just because they shouldn't. If they can, they will.
Hepburn: I am referring to the same. I think that every woman in every country should be put on BC at the onset of puberty. I am sick of paying for teenage pregnancy and seeing starving kids in Africa on TV everyday.
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posted on June 23, 2001 07:40:50 PMShe may still be mentally ill, even if she planned the murders. Obsessive thoughts or planning are commonly found in mentally ill patterns of behavior.
Helen
This may be true. It bothers me that she had enough faculties to call the police afterwards.
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[ edited by caravaggio on Jun 23, 2001 08:37 PM ]
My daughter, addicted to drugs, was also severly depressed and suicidal and spent a great deal of time in various mental facilities.
While visiting her there, I became acquainted with many depressed and psychotic people.
One fellow, who was released too early, used to call me and talk for a long time about his problems with the CIA, NSA, FBI and other intelligence gathering groups. It was his belief that they were all
after him. Although he was clearly crazy, I did not consider him dangerous. He was always very polite and his calls were very interesting.
But then he called me late one night with a request to set up a three way conference call between himself, me and the parents of my daughter's boyfriend. He explained to me very calmly that he wanted to tell these people that he was planning to sever the head from the body of their son and deliver it to them in a basket.
posted on June 23, 2001 08:37:31 PM
Excellent example Helen.
And, I'll bet the other side of that story is that your caller didn't see anything wrong with his proposition. In his mind, it was as sane a thought as you or I saying we're going to go to the corner store to buy a loaf of bread.
posted on June 23, 2001 08:47:14 PMHelen:That would be very upsetting to me. I can see your point, Helen. I just can't get past that this woman killed her kids. WHen I first heard about this I was sympathetic to her because I have dealt with depression and another mental illness. If it is found that she had no control over herself she needs help. To me it sounds like she very coldly and methodically killed her children. Did anyone find out if she ever gave the police a reason for her actions?
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posted on June 23, 2001 09:21:50 PM
I'll bet there's a lot more to be told as to her motives but here's an article that addresses it somewhat. I think that Pareau and others are right in that it's likely that somewhere in her mind this woman believed she had to escape her life and I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't also imagine that this was a deserved or appropriate punishment for her husband.
The woman told police she had been thinking for several months about killing the children, the Dallas Morning News reported in its online edition Friday.
"She essentially said she had realized that she was a bad mother and she felt that the children were disabled -- that they were not developing normally," an unidentified official familiar with details of the taped confession told the newspaper.
Helen You're probably lucky that this guy didn't decide that you were the enemy for not understanding the need to sever the boyfriend's head... you could have become his next target. (shudder to think) I hope he's lost your phone #.
posted on June 23, 2001 09:52:34 PM
I'm not familiar with Medea? This situation does remind me of the real life case of John List from about twenty-five or so years ago. He was an accountant that killed his entire family because they were "defective and going to hell." He was tracked down just a few years ago and is in prison now for life. I see several similarities but I think that his motive was purely a control issue rather than acting out some grand delusion. It could end up that that is this woman's driving force as well. It's just so sad that no one saw it coming in time to stop her.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:48:20 PM
Medea is a classical Greek tragedy (play). Medea is a young sorceress whom Jason encounters while he's searching for the golden fleece, with his group of guys, the Argonauts. Medea falls in love with Jason, and agrees to help him overcome the obstacles the gods have put in his way. He succeeds in his endeavour, he marries Medea, and takes her back to his homeland.
Two kids later, Jason decides he wants to climb the political and social ladder. As a foreigner, his wife, Medea, is a liability, but the daughter of some high ranking guy (king maybe?) looks like a good prospect, so he goes home and tells Medea he's dumping her to marry this more useful woman, and he also tells Medea that she should be glad about this, because her children will grow up to be children of someone of importance! (once Medea is out of the picture, anyway).
Ungrateful wretch that she is, Medea doesn't fall all over Jason congratulating him for coming up with this wonderful idea. Instead, she's hurt and angry. Here she went all out with the Golden Fleece thing, without her he wouldn't have succeeded in that and become a hero, she left her homeland where she was the daugher of a king herself (I think) to come with him, and now he's tossing her aside like yesterday's newspaper.
So, Medea fashions a fabulously ornate robe and sends it to the princess as a present. She puts it on, but it's been covered with poison, and the princess starts going off in an agonizing death. The princess' father tries to get the robe off her, but it's been enchanted too, and not only can't he remove it, but just from touching it he dies.
Back at home, Medea's putting the finishing touches to her revenge on Jason, by killing their two children. At the end, I think Medea escapes to some other kingdom.
Anyway, I don't think this Texas thing is a "Medea" story, even though it does involve killing your own children.
posted on June 24, 2001 07:36:55 AMIf those people they show, covered with flies, bellies protruding out due to worms, bones poking out due to starvation were so listless from malnutrition, WHY would they take the energy and time to make babies? They aren't stupid. They know what the results are aftering having sex. To me, it shows a lack of caring about the children they bring in to that hell. Why should they worry, when there are bleeding hearts everywhere, urging for handouts because THEY didn't think about what laying on that straw mat would result in. So no, they dont need birth control. They need to keep their legs shut and pants hitched up.
(Edited to add that I am refering to the ads on television about third world countries. If you dont want children, then you know how to avoid having them, right? And, if you were in that situation, wouldnt you do the same there as here? To know you cant take care of yourself, much less a child, would you not bother to make sure none came forth? Of course).
Skipping over much that could be said about the content above, it should be pointed out that it's generally accepted that there's a direct correlation between poverty and fecundity. It was well known to Margaret Sanger, Founding Parent of Modern BC, who launched her eugenics-based drive for controlling foreign populations with the argument that reducing the birth rate would improve their standard of living. The eugenics angle has never disappeared from BC; The success of John D. Rockefeller's Population Council, USAID, and the Pathfinder Fund in implanting tens of millions of women worldwide with IUDs--including millions of post-US-ban Dalkon shields--attests to its vitality.
Going back to the quoted material, I strongly doubt that the typical woman who lays "on the straw mat" enjoys the right to control what happens on that mat. And I think that many who lay on Sealy Posturepedics in this fine land would say the same.
posted on June 24, 2001 08:31:09 AM
And there's the problem, overanalysis, when any right-thinking person can see that the issue is as simple as black and white. Or brown and white.
posted on June 24, 2001 08:45:42 AM
Hogwash. I dont see barefoot children picking flies out of sores being shown on television from within the USA, and our country begging for handouts from other countries. Someone dumb enough to keep popping out kids with swollen bellies due to malnutrition would have their kids taken away and be locked up for child endangerment. I also cant picture someone dying of starvation laying in a tent or on straw mat somewhere amd finding the energy to do what it makes to HAVE children. And from what I see, it isnt just one child..its many, from the same woman.
posted on June 24, 2001 08:59:50 AM
A lot of you are wondering why she called the police after.
To me that fits in with her previous attempted suicide.
I figure this is her "suicide by police"
A man would wave a gun around and make them shoot him - but her action in Texas will be just as lethal.
posted on June 24, 2001 09:12:56 AMHogwash. I dont see barefoot children picking flies out of sores being shown on television from within the USA, and our country begging for handouts from other countries. Someone dumb enough to keep popping out kids with swollen bellies due to malnutrition would have their kids taken away and be locked up for child endangerment. I also cant picture someone dying of starvation laying in a tent or on straw mat somewhere amd finding the energy to do what it makes to HAVE children. And from what I see, it isnt just one child..its many, from the same woman
Gee, Hepburn this is such a valid, smart point I am surprised no one thought of it before. Just don't do it. Wow! What a thought! Member of the Christian Coalition? That is what they have been trying to shove down our throats for years. Guess what? Teenage pregnancy and teenage HIV is still a problem in this country. They don't want to educate teens about sex and they don't want to give them protection, but can they ever #*!@ about abortion and AIDS. Give me a break! I have never understood reasoning like this. It is going to happen so why not protect them instead of closing your eyes and saying "Don't do it".
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