posted on June 14, 2001 05:39:58 AM new
Beware of using Billpoint as a selling service. I recently was hit with a $200.+ chargeback (electronic withdrawal from my bank account) for an auction item sold in December of 2000! Supposedly, someone used a credit card that did not belong to them, and had the item Billpoint said was paid for, sent to an address other than the card holder. The name and shipping address that I had sent the item to was provided to me through Billpoint's standard "payment received confirmation" email stating that payment was received and would be deposited into my account. The item was sent via UPS Ground Insured, received 3 days later and signed for! The cardholder disputed the charge on thier statement, and Billpoint's bank refunded their money at my expense 6 months later -- Didn't even credit me back for my Ebay auction listing, final value, or credit card transaction fees! After contacting them numerous times, the only answer I received was that "it is in their agreement that I accepted in using their service that the seller is 100% liable for chargeback disputes, and that it would cost them too much to trace the email address or who lived at the address the package was shipped to. If I wanted to, I could probably call the police in that city, or hire a lawyer to sue them personally, etc." Wouldn't you think that for the 3-5% credit card acceptance fees, plus final value fees sellers pay, that Billpoint, or any other online transaction service, should at least provide some degree of fraud protection?! My only advice is not to use Billpoint or any other online service that does not stand behind the seller as well as the buyer -- In online auction transactions, it's not always "Buyer Beware"!
posted on June 14, 2001 07:21:13 AM new
>>This is exactly how all merchant accounts work.<<
No it isnt. With a real merchant account, the buyer gives YOU the shipping info and it is YOUR job to verify it. The software tells YOU if the address matches the credit card. With third party services, it is THEIR responsibility to give you the correct information because THEY validated the card. Billpoint's record in allowing folks to set up accounts with completely wrong names and addresses in inexcusable. TAG (the Auction Guild) has recommended that sellers stop accepting Billpoint credit cards due to their incompetence in this area.
Paypal at least sends the verified name and address. C2it protects sellers from unauthorized credit card fraud. Billpoint's attitude is they can do whatever they want since they make someone else pay the penalty for their incompetence.
posted on June 14, 2001 08:05:37 AM new
i dont understand ??
why does it take 6 months for the original cardholder to find out his/her card has been stolen??
i think there is a provision in the cc agreement that the cardholder has up to a certain period to review his monthly statement and notify the issuer of discrepancy.
dont quote me on it,i think it is like 90 days,if a person does not spot the fraud item on his statement when it arrives or does not realise the card was stolen within 3 months,he must be away from home or just not manning his finance??
these days most of us have more than one credit cards and if one which is seldom used is lost or stolen,it may take awhile to realise it is missing.
but if it has been used ,then the statement will arrive at his home address,it is his job to read his mail??
posted on June 14, 2001 09:07:16 AM new
The 60 or 90 days often referred to is the MINIMUM that a bank must allow. Banks are allowed as long as they like to allow a customer chargeback. Typically, the bank will allow most non-receipt or non-authorized chargeback for up to about 6 months, no problem. After that, they start asking "why", but most will accept what seems to be a good answer up to about two years.
A merchant account has NO time limit after which a charge becomes chargeback proof.
It would seem sensible to use a payment service which provides solid protection from chargebacks when the rules are followed.
posted on June 14, 2001 09:28:37 AM new
>>It would seem sensible to use a payment service which provides solid protection from chargebacks when the rules are followed.<<
In other words, don't use Billpoint or Paypal. Roofguy, glad to see you've finally seen the light!
For those who don't understand what I mean, just read this thread about paypal allowing a charge back after SIXTEEN MONTHS which violates their own rules in numerous ways.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:48:09 AM new
so if we dont use billpoint and paypal,who else can we use??
some sellers move thier fund out of the bank account which is hooked up to paypal or billpoint,so what happens when say billpoint chargeback 200 dollars and there aint 200 dollars in your bank account?
so the account went negative,what happens then??
posted on June 14, 2001 10:50:14 AM new
so if we use accept credit cards,we risk chargbacks.
if we accept personal check,it may bounce and there is a penalty from our bank.
if we accept money order,it could be stolen by postal employee or neighbor.
if we accept cash,it could be stolen too,'so what should a seller do?
mark up all items to shoulder such loss??
posted on June 14, 2001 11:09:56 AM new
>>so if we dont use billpoint and paypal,who else can we use?? <<
In the U.S. for credit cards, use C2it. For bank transfers, use Achex. Out of the US, use Bidpay (but dont ship until you have the payment in your hands).
posted on June 14, 2001 11:53:41 AM new
I do appreciate all the response that my post has gotten already, even though it doesn't put the $200. back into my bank account! I have to say though, with my own business merchant account, when I receive all of the buyer's billing, shipping and credit card info. and submit it for processing, this has never happened. Why? Because I am the one getting the buyer info., verifying it, and submitting it. If I see that something doesn't match, I question it, ask for another credit card, or only ship to the billing address. When you pay an online service to do all that for you, as a convenience to the buyer, you should be able to expect the same level of verification.
posted on June 14, 2001 01:53:26 PM new
"PayPal offers complete protection from charge backs to sellers who follow the rules."
But PayPal offers no protection to Buyers that are scammed by fraudulent Sellers. I did a charge back to the PayPal and got my PayPal account restricted. What did PayPal do to the Seller, ZIP!!
posted on June 14, 2001 02:12:16 PM new
>>"PayPal offers complete protection from charge backs to sellers who follow the rules."
But PayPal offers no protection to Buyers that are scammed by fraudulent Sellers. I did a charge back to the PayPal and got my PayPal account restricted. What did PayPal do to the Seller, ZIP!! <<
The answer to both of these comments is yes and no. We have seen posts from scammed sellers and posts from scammed buyers. I'm not sure how Paypal works. Do they alternate "buyer's week" and "seller's week?" Does management say "this week the buyers always win and next week the sellers always win?" Or do they roll dice? Or is it up to the individual customer service person? The only thing anyone with some common sense can figure out from reading these posts is that there are no rules and no one (not even the Paypal reps) can tell who will win or lose in any situation. Maybe somone should open a casino and take bets on the outcome. Just dont take Paypal because you can be sure that the losers will charge it back.
posted on June 14, 2001 02:17:23 PM new
>>Please point me to where it states that there is a time limit for charge backs on our site.<<
Damon,
You have been working for Paypal too long and the dishonesty is rubbing off. Here is an ongoing thread right here where you are defending paypal refusing a buyer claim because it has been more than 3 months since the payment.
posted on June 14, 2001 02:24:37 PM new
HI yisgood,
The services you tout offer NO protection to the buyer. I can actually put together some testimonials for you (relative to our Buyer Protection recovery process).
Sellers are protected as long as they follow the Seller Protection Program.
posted on June 14, 2001 02:34:05 PM new
>>Yes, the buyer did not follow the terms of use (for the Buyer Complaint Process). The claim was denied because it was over 30 days past. <<
Well, which was it? Was it because he didnt follow the terms or because it was over 30 days? Or don't you know yourself?
>>The services you tout offer NO protection to the buyer.<<
First, that isnt true. Using a credit card with C2it allows the buyer to do a charge back. Second, if it is a choice between protecting the seller or the buyer, it makes more sense to protect the seller. 1) the seller is your customer. The seller is the one who chooses to use your service and pays your fees. 2) The buyer chooses to do business with the seller. It is the buyer's responsibility to check out the seller's reputation. Seller doesnt have a choice of which buyer to deal with. 3) There are far more crooked buyers than crooked sellers. Sellers have to show proof of shipping. Buyers do nothing more than make a verbal complaint.
>>I can actually put together some testimonials for you (relative to our Buyer Protection recovery process). <<
The prosecutor says, "We have ten witnesses who saw you commit a crime" and the criminal responds "I have 50 who didnt see me do it." I'm sure that there are folks who recovered. Particularly in high profile cases like the PS/2 rip off. But what about the many who got screwed through Paypal's inaction or uncaring, untrained customer service? I can put together testimonials about lots of folks who didnt recover when they should have.
>>Sellers are protected as long as they follow the Seller Protection Program.<<
Just the fact that Paypal was ready to process a charge back after 16 months proves you wrong. Since your "protection program" is based on trackable delivery confirmation which is taken off line after 12 months, this seller followed your terms and was still going to be ripped off. Would he have been protected if he hadn't known to come here and post his problem publicly?
posted on July 18, 2001 06:20:47 PM new
I have recently contacted a reporter who is doing a story on Billpoint charge backs. Email me and I'll put you in touch with him.
posted on July 18, 2001 11:40:37 PM new
Actually, paypal.com does NOT offer complete protection from chargebacks for sellers. That is simply untrue.
A buyer can initiate a chargeback, and paypal.com simply sends out a request e-mail. It has been found that even answering this e-mail COMPLETE with tracking # and confirmed shipping address, the chargeback still goes through.
Oh, and what about shipping to a CONFIRMED shipping address, but using a shipping service like USPS (say a low cost item) 1st class mail, or Priority Mail without tracking?
Oh, and what about those chargebacks that paypal.com does NOT send out e-mails and simply reverses the charges?
Blind faith in paypal.com is about as idiotic as blind faith in ebay.com.
Final note: We use a merchant service, and chargebacks aren't allowed past 90 days, as the merchant service themselves do not keep credit cards on file that long. The buyer does not have unlimited time for a chargeback, and anyone whose credit card has been stolen should have reported WELL before that time period.
However, credit cards are REQUIRED to protect the consumer by law, and NOT the seller. Sellers actually have very little protection. I have been doing this for years and am aware of the risks.
posted on July 27, 2001 01:21:17 PM new
You should also be aware that PP's seller protection program does NOT protect the seller against credit card chargebacks if the buyer claims a "quality of merchanidise" reason for doing the chargeback. Yes, even if you follow and fulfill all the seller protection program's requirements, you're still not protected from chargebacks if the buyer claims the quality of your merchandise isn't what he expected!
See my thread at the Paypal AW board for more details--and especially Damons's unambiguous confirmation--of this huge loophole in the seller protection program.
posted on July 28, 2001 04:27:55 PM new
in another thread,a buyer failed to get paypal to do chargeback for receiving a laptop which is not the one described,paypal keeps saying they do not get involved in content issue??
like this laptop versus that laptop?
posted on July 28, 2001 04:37:19 PM new
Right! That's because PP doesn't cover the BUYER for quality of merchandise disputes. Also note that even when PP has determined that the seller is at fault (ie the buyer deserves a refund), PP washes their hands of the whole thing once they find that there are no funds left in the seller's PP account.
The problem for the SELLER arises when the buyer doesn't go through PP first, but instead does a direct chargeback via his credit card. Then PP will go after the seller, because PP's funds are now at risk.
posted on July 30, 2001 07:54:53 PM new
Get this. I sold a sony DVD/Home theater setup on ebay 5 months ago. I got delivery confirmation and insurance. The buyer wanted to use billpoint so I signed up. Sold the package for 499.13. Shipped it out ect....and I get an email from the buyer telling me he hasn't received the item. I check the delivery confirmation and it shows to be delivered. 2 months later I get an email from billpoint telling me a charge back is pending if I can not provide proof of delivery. So I give them the tracking number ect...now 2 months later the same thing. But now they are saying I have to have a signed receipt from the buyer showing the item was delivered. There is now way I can get that. I told them I got insurance on the item and the buyer could have filed an insurance claim with the usps or even ebay's insurance, but he didn't. Now I'm probably going to get a charge back of 499.13. Anyone have any suggestions? I'm not using billpoint after this and will never again. Can I callmy bank and tell them to refuse the charge back from billpoint? Any help will be great.
Every package I've received from the Post Office that is insured for more than 50.00 has required my signature that the goods were received in good order before they would release the item to me.
So, if you insured the item for the bid value, your buyer would've had to sign for it (if my experience is any guide) and the PO will have a record of their signature (hopefuly)....
Do you think that would satisfy Billpoint?
The pitfalls of accepting credit cards....what an education...
posted on July 31, 2001 06:05:46 AM new
If you never plan on using BP again, you can go to your bank and put a block on it. Someone I know did this but BP charged the account under a different business name. I advised her that she can go to her bank and file an affidavit stating this transaction was not authorized (similar to a charge back) and the bank would reverse it. BP would then have to sue her for the money and I don't believe they will.
In the meantime, you can still go to the PO and make a claim of lost package. The buyer will then have to fill out a form stating it was never received. Penalty for doing this falsely is pretty steep. If it was delivered, the PO will send you proof.
posted on July 31, 2001 06:08:39 PM new
The bottom line is: If you're going to play in the electronic world and you get stung (in your opinion) you're only option is to close the account that is attached to the electronic processor. Most all of these rules apply to the internet world just as they do in the real world. If you come into our store, make a purchase with a major credit card and then decide that you have been defrauded in some way. You'll call your credit card company and complain. They will place a charge back on our account, just as quick as they will on a BP or PayPal account.The major difference is that your credit card company will require written documentation and proof that you have been defrauded, internet processors do not.
The only protection one has is to completely C.Y.A. take photos, record and document every sale, and have witnesses and ship every item insured whether the buyer wants it or not. Then use a delivery service that provides a written receipt for every item that you sell over $50.00 (if you can't afford to lose $50.00, you're not making enough money and you need to get out of the business). Defrauding the U.S.P.S. is a felony, defrauding the public should be.
posted on August 3, 2001 07:12:16 PM new
I think we are all missing the point "PayPonzi" is making millions a year in interest by holding our funds. And that's the name of that game
posted on August 5, 2001 04:23:18 PM new
since the item was insured and buyer claimed he did not receive it,then usps said seller can file claim after 30 days.
not sure for how long after 30 days,i would find out if you can still file claim with post office,this is legit claim with usps.
of course if usps finds out buyer is lying,he is in trouble.
you have nothing to fear
