posted on January 28, 2000 12:35:33 PM new
Ebay and the IRS wants your Social Security Number.
Well if you do not know, now you will. In case you might be trying to earn a little money under the table, and of course I am sure no one would do that. I am told that there is a new gig that ebay is working together with Equifax Secure, Inc. to provide social security numbers to the IRS, child support enforcement agencies, bill collection agencies, personal information brokers and marketing companies. Also will be used to keep up with the amount of sales you make. At first I am told from an inside source Ebay was going to require that all members list their social security numbers with them and may still do so in the future. When they tested the market response and found a very unfavorable response to all of us providing our social security number they had to get creative. So they struck a deal with Equifax Secure, Inc. that will subtlety start off as posing as a "good Samaritan" personal verification service. See: http://pages.ebay.com/services/safeharbor/safeharbor-verified.html .... this way people will gradually be duped into providing their social security number, unknowing the real purpose it will be used for. So like a good little sheep please provide your International personal Tracking number, I mean Social security. Did you know that it is actually illegal for any agency other that Social security, your employer and social benefits office to require you to provide your SS#, but we sheep unknowingly or just don't care, provide this number that is used by big brother and corporate entities to track all of your habits and activities.
Remember that Ebays new top gun lawer was a G'man.
This information is provided to me by an inside source who wishes to protect their identify due to fear of retribution.
posted on February 12, 2000 09:20:49 AM new
How can Ebay do this ! This violates our right to privacy . Most items sold , as I sell , are items that I purchased over the years . It has been a great way to clean out things that are just sitting there and make room for myself and at the same time makes the buyer a happy person . I am appalled at this imformation for how can you take social security numbers for I have paid taxes for the items when I purchased them . This is our Government ! When will the American people wake up and put a stop to this outlandish kind of conduct . Pachina
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posted on February 12, 2000 10:04:31 AM new
Many people are not even aware nor do they care that the SS# is being used against the law and for national identification purposes, sort of like your own personal serial
number, really. Also it is illegal for the private sector to even request your SS# much less require it and discriminate against you. They can only require it for tax reporting purpose from wages, nothing else.
posted on February 12, 2000 10:13:40 AM new
I seemed to have made a mistake in my original posting by saying ebay. I should have more accurately said all Auctions. There is a plan in place for IRS to start
gathering information of the sales of people on internet auctions and find a way to tax their sales.
Remember that internet Auctions did over a billion dollars of gross sales last year and the Feds want a piece of that pie, and will eventually figure out how. The state of
California is put together and commissioned a team to study how this can be done.
One person in another Auction wrote to me on this subject and said it was our American duty as to cooperate in this effort. Hmm.
posted on February 18, 2000 04:55:05 AM new
Well, I may someday regret these words, or perhaps even be made to eat them. But, I think it is safe to say, it will be a long time before the government or anyone for that matter has such tight control on the internet.
Let's examine a few recent incidents that should help relieve some fears and put the idea into proper perspective.
Only a few days ago, the entire internet was comprimised by a few people whom were referred to as Hackers. Well, hacking has been a problem for many many years, it is only in recent years that notoriety via the massive media, has brought this problem to public light. The government as well as the larger ISP's and everyone in the industry have known about hacking for at least 10 years that I know of and they STILL havnt been able to control this issue.
Also, many government offices are still very behind in their technology. Either due to a lack of available technical knowledge or adequate funds but none the less, many government offices are very far behind in technology.
I believe it is safe to say that a person could ask any software programmer to write a magical program to do a specific task, ie sniff SS#'s or what ever and that programmer would tell you it could be done. Almost guaranteed, they could not tell you when such a programm could be done, if ever.
Another recent example of this is Y2K. How many people were buying oil lamps, removing money from their bank accounts, storing extra groceries etc. etc. because they didnt trust technology. I believe most of the hysteria came from media hype and the lack of technical knowledge. But, as most of us know, we passed through to the new millenium quite smoothly.
Alot of money was made by the technology gurus taking advantage of this lack of general knowledge.
Yet another consideration, say they did somehow get SS#'s, who would they give it to? Is it legal for them to do so? And, as many of us know, just because someone bids and wins, does not mean the money will actually change hands. All these issues and more need to be resolved to put plans to control internet commerce into action.
To put this into a little better perspective, it would cost the government and all concerned way too much to go after those whom are simply cleaning out closets. They would be dollars ahead to target the larger companies. So, I firmly believe it will be a long time before those who are simply cleaning out closets will be effected, if ever.
posted on February 18, 2000 05:07:07 AM new
An extra note with regard to right to privacy of SS#. I think I would be more concerned about these companies that are offering free service to act as a go between buyer and seller, ie xcom, paypal and others. Now, these companies would have the information to report who is buying what from whom and how much.
posted on February 19, 2000 04:31:28 PM new
Re: X.com & PayPal.com services having your information...
Seems that the solution there would be to only "send money to a friend" or "request money" instead of "auction payment request". Can't get taxed on $$ that you receive from a friend as a "gift"? Can you? Just a thought.
posted on February 25, 2000 03:11:48 PM new
I just hope that sellers will be very careful ..who they give information to. I sell the items that I feel are my own personal property and I am tired of the government trying to impose on my personal life.We pay enough in every type of tax now..gas tax ..tobacco tax..sales tax..property tax and ect...I am glas that this message was posted to provide sellers with this type of information
posted on March 12, 2000 07:45:24 PM new
IRS is always sticking their fingers into everything. You think they would give us a break - after all, our gov't is doing nothing to alleviate the gas prices.
posted on March 13, 2000 03:05:13 PM new
alchemycht
You said:
"I seemed to have made a mistake in my original posting by saying ebay. I should have more accurately said all Auctions. There is a plan in place for IRS to start gathering information of the sales of people on internet auctions and find a way to tax their sales."
A couple of things.
First, government has a plan for everything. For instance there is a plan in place for the evacuation of Washington DC in the event the Soviet Union drops a nuke there (I say Soviet Union with full knowledge that foreign government no longer exists ... but I'd almost bet that "Soviet Union" is still the country mentioned in the 'plan' that is in place.)
Government plans, that is going to happen. That doesn't mean that what is called for in the plan is a sure thing. For instance, LBJ planned to eliminate poverty ... what happened to that plan? Duh?
Also, taxing is what government does. Right now they can't tax the Internet because Congress said they couldn't (The sales tax moritorium). They can't and they won't until Congress says so.
The second part of your comments regard the use of the Social Security number.
On that point (government plans not with standing) I can say that auctions.com has desire or intention of asking, directly, subtely or secretly for anyone's social security number (other than direct employees because, by law, we have to).
We'll take your CC and check because we'd love to have more of your money but we also know that we'd have to earn it
Having said all that, the only online auction to even breach the idea of getting your SS# was eBay -- and that was for the practical purpose of verifying your identity (Credit cards can be stolen.)
I can also say that that auctions.com doesn't want the extra task of getting your SS# so that we can provide information on a silver platter to the IRS (or anyone, for that matter).
That is not to say that it won't ever happen. If the law is that we have to get that info and jump through fifty hoops backwards with our eyes closed or go to jail ... we'll we'll try the hoops over "the system".
But the first and best defense all of this is not fear that it will happen, but the understanding of the process of how it would and can happen and how you can influence it not happening.
First, it will happen only when and if Congress lets it happen.
How do you stop Congress from doing that?
First, write your Congressman and tell him to not do it.
I'd suggest two more things. The first is the joining and getting involved with the Online Auction Users Association (oaua.com). I suspect when the issue is put into bill form, they'll begin to get active. (They probably need to be active right now but they don't have the funding.) This is "organization" and it is important.
The other is to sock back about half the money you think you'd have to pay in taxes and have it ready to donate it political campaigns for both your state legislative races and the Congressional and US Senate races in your state.
Fact is, if you and everyone else doesn't recognize this threat and blindly go on, it will happen. The only way to really stop it is to be organized and have money to fight it.
Pat
PS: Right now, government knows that eBay has the biggest chunck of the market and that's who they'll make a deal with. Unless folks know how to address this threat, not only do I expect sellers to be on the short end, but with eBay making the deal for the Industry, do you really think we'll be a beneficiary?
Here's a list of stories brought up on www.news.com regarding Internet taxation.
Showing items 1 through 25
• Net tax commission dissension may be growing, March 9, 2000
• Analyst predicts extension of e-commerce tax ban, February 29, 2000
• Congress asked not to ban net taxes, February 29, 2000
• Deadline looms for Net tax proposals, February 23, 2000
• H&R Block Web site overloaded by tax filers, February 15, 2000
• Firms fight for permanent Net tax ban, February 10, 2000
• Talks could end impasse on Net taxation, February 3, 2000
• Lawmakers propose permanent ban on Net taxes, January 31, 2000
• Tech companies outline compromise for Net taxation, January 28, 2000
• E-commerce commission struggles with sales tax decision, December 14, 1999
• Sales taxes may dominate Net commission hearings, December 13, 1999
• Policy-maker renews call to ban new Net taxes, November 15, 1999
• Antitax groups offer e-commerce plan, November 10, 1999
• Leading policymaker proposes end to Net taxes, November 9, 1999
• Federal panel calls for Net tax plans, October 13, 1999
• Infighting stalls Internet tax panel, September 30, 1999
• Short Take: Bill set to ban e-commerce taxes, September 29, 1999
• Bill would prohibit Net taxes, September 23, 1999
• Short Take: Net tax panel raises privacy issues, September 15, 1999
• Facing problems, Internet tax panel trudges on, September 15, 1999
• Tax group in standoff on Net tax issues, September 8, 1999
• Internet tax panel hits Congress up for cash, August 30, 1999
• Internet tax panel gets serious, narrows focus, August 8, 1999
• House OKs Net booze limits, August 3, 1999
• E-commerce tax pitched as teacher's aid, August 2, 1999
There are over 50 more stories on the subject on C/net alone.
It is not a rumor that government, particularly state and local governments, are eager to tax ecommerce.
The only thing stopping these folks is the Congress, which put a 2 year moritorium on Internet taxation.
While the latest stories suggest that the tax moritorium maybe extended, folks shouldn't be complacent.
I too am "tired" of the conspiracy theories but the overall subject matter warrants attention of folks in this industry.
posted on March 15, 2000 07:27:57 AM new
SUBECT OF THIS IS AS OLD AS THE HILLS:
Good Grief, this must be a plant post by Auctions.com. This subject is SO OLD and was discarded by eBay ages ago, when the uproar started about it almost 8 months ago. Boy Auctions.com must be desperate to post such old trash.
posted on March 15, 2000 07:53:19 AM new
You know I was avoiding this whole silly subject because the person who started it seemed to only be interested in stirring things up not only here but on many of the other message boards.
JWPC, you are way off on Auctions.Com having anything to do with this stupid thread. Neomax has only been responding to other people, not initiating the discussion. Personally I think if we ignore it it will go away but I am not in Neomax's position.
Why the venom against AC? If you don't like the site, no one is forcing you to read the messages here.
My first reaction ... this is the same-old, same-old ... was just like yours.
But rather than respond with a knee-jerk, I looked around a little and found that user verification is being moved back to current issue status on all online auctions.
How do I know that?
Well, read this at the Software Publishers Association site.
User verification is but one of several issues brought out by the SPA but the way I read this, they say flatly that eBay's VeRO program, based on the DMCA, is not valid and will not protect them from suit by software publishers.
Yes, the SS#/user verification subject is old and, yes, my first inclination was to also post something dismissive of the issue. (Some of that survived ... i.e. the still existing contingency plans for the big shootout with the USSR ... sure alchemycht, the government has plans... thats what they do.)
But then I got to looking around and there are important and powerful interests seeking a voice in what goes on at the auctions other than the auction users and auctions themselves.
For instance, in the Internet tax panel, there are two distinct groups ... one very much pro-tax and the other anti.
The anti-tax faction seems to have the upper hand in Congress and on the panel but the other folks are dedicated to their point of view as well.
That these interests would seek to use not only the state legislatures and Congress but the courts to have their voice heard is what makes this different from the same-old, same-old. (In the same-old, same-old, it was just the auction users vs. eBay.)
That's one of the reasons I suggested that auction users, to protect their interests, ought to start moving toward the "united we stand, divided we fall" mindset (OAUA -- auctionusers.org)... I still do.
Frankly, this advice is from one auction user to another auction user and it really doesn't have to do with one auction site or another. There is no commercial advantage for anyone for any of it.
posted on March 27, 2000 02:39:00 PM new
Why worry if these auction sites get your SS# ? The IRS can obtain your number very easily; they can get all your account info very easily from the auction sites, too! They don't have the resourses to track millions of tax returns to see if everybody reported all their income. So what exactly is new that you are trying to uncover?
posted on March 27, 2000 05:25:06 PM new
Quickdraw:
The issue is that if the auction has your SS# associated with your auction selling records, the government will not only be able to check your online auction sales, but can very easily compel the online auctions to report that information to both state and federal revenue departments.
Quickdraw, as you point out, it is not that the government can't get your SS# or that they can't obtain your selling records. Rather, it is the ability to tie those records together and report them to both state and federal authorities as a matter of standard operating procedure that is the issue.
The case in favor of not requiring online auctions to collect this information and make these reports, IMO, is compelling.
The government would argue that collectible items, like money in the bank, are items held for investment. As investments they are subject to taxation as capital gains (If nothing else.) State governments may find that with some tweaking of their laws, these sales may also be subject to sales taxes. (Of course there is currently a moritorium on sales taxes on the Net.)
Using that logic, they would say that online auctions, just like banks or stock brokerages, should be compelled to:
1. get trader tax id numbers (most often the users SS#) from their customers.
2. Have the online auctions send regular quarterly or annual reports relating the users selling activity.
We, of course, will disagree.
Our argument is that only a small portion of the items sold on the auctions actually are sold for a profit as most who sell on the auctions are simply liquidating personal property and as such, is not subject to taxation regardless.
Given that, the online auction's position would be that that it would be an invasion of privacy to collect and report sales information for personal property sold through an online auction the same as it would be a newspaper classified ad.
We would further contend that only a small percentage of those listing actually sell in significant volumes and these "volume sellers" are most commonly existing businesses with auditable accounting systems in place.
Indeed, the overall quality of the information obtained by a perusal of online auction records is such that it is a totally unreliable source of information as to the existance of any profit, much less taxable profits, obtained by those selling (This contrasts with the guaranteed knowledge that interest payments made by banks is "income".
Given that the information is at best unreliable, it would place an undue burden on both the online auction and the user to require they provide tax ID numbers to the online auctions inorder for them to then report that information to the government. GIGO.
Rather, if the government thinks that a particular person is cheating on their taxes, avoiding the payment of sales taxes or otherwise violating the law, they should focus on the suspected individual. Indeed, the power of the government to subpoena such records is well established in law and custom.
Indeed, that is the status quo.
Quickdraw ... I don't think anyone is trying to uncover anything. Instead, I think the best purpose of this thread is to get folks focused on what it may take to maintain the status quo.
.