posted on August 30, 2001 01:35:32 PM new
I've been selling for a year and never had a problem. I've read on these messageboards about many horror stories and always said 'thank goodness' that didn't happen to me. Well, no longer can I say it.
Fraud has struck. I share it here to remind others that it can happen to you and not to forget it.
Short story:
Winning bidder of item didn't complete AW form; didn't contact me within three days.
Fraud winning bidder did contact me via telephone saying he was almost out the door for two weeks and would I please send item to friend (in another state). He identified himself by the name and city of the winning bidder; I checked that out through eBay. Very nice guy, too; almost charming. I said of course I would try to accommodate him.
Fraud bidder's friend sent me a money order and nice note saying 'I'm so and so's friend who was bidding for me. Here's your money and my address is etc., etc.,'
I mail the package upon receiving payment to then be contacted by the actual winning bidder. He says he does not know this guy or anything about this. He's furious and thinking I am committing fraud against him. He reports me to eBay.
I send him through email a scanned copy of the mail receipt, the money order, the letter from the fraud friend. I also call him and spend an hour talking with him. He realizes that we both have been duped.
I went to the Post Office to inform about mail fraud. The Postmaster almost laughed in my face. I had to ask more than once for a form to report it. He really didn't want to give it to me.
I went to the Sheriff's Office and he said there was no victim here, since I had been paid, no one else had given money and not received anything, and not completing a deal does not leave a victim either. He did advise me to write the local police department and let them know what had happened and the address I sent the item to, which I did; however, he noted that similar to drug dealers the address is probably someone who knows nothing about any of this and was used while they were away.
I wrote eBay and heard nothing. I did several other things but found no help anywhere.
Needless to say, I now have in place some very firm rules with no plans to be so 'helpful' in the future to buyers.
My actual winning bidder has bought from me again, thank goodness. I have no idea why the fraud winner would actually commit theft for a $35 item. I was too trusting and now am not, period.
Don't think it can't happen to you; it can!
If sharing this only helps one person to remember that online fraud is happening then I'm very glad I've shared it. It doesn't have to be for gold or jewels or millions....just a $35 item in this case and the thieves know how to do it with ease...
posted on August 31, 2001 09:29:00 AM new
Who stole what? I don't know who, but the what was a $35 item. The actual winning bidder did not get his item. Someone impersonating the 'winning bidder' got it.????? Who? Who knows. Why? Who knows.... This may be a new game in town (at eBay). I don't know.
Sorry I confused you, but I too was very confused when it happened.
posted on August 31, 2001 10:43:04 AM new
Well, that's a shame you don't see wrong doing or fraud here. My ethics tell me it was fraud and very unethical.
The winning bidder did not get his item because someone impersonated him. Is one not a crook if he impersonates someone else and gets the item when he didn't bid on it? That's okay as long as he pays for it?
I can't accept that. I'm not the kind of seller who only worries about being paid and not caring by whom; winning bidder or not.
posted on August 31, 2001 11:00:31 AM newThe winning bidder did not get his item because someone impersonated him.
Ok. By the second posting, I had kind of guessed at that. Whatever that is, it's not theft. Agreed, it's definitely unethical, and infuriating when you're victimized.
posted on August 31, 2001 11:15:18 AM new
Yes, rooftop, and costly. With my time spent on this deal, plus the stress, plus the time dealing with the winning bidder's stress and feelings (i.e., telephone calls, etc.), it became a 'for many days' deal....costly.
I think what you've said is what the authorities said or thought....this crook walks a 'fine line' between wrongdoing as per the authorities definition of theft, too.
My thoughts include that today it is for a $35 item and tomorrow what? A $3500 item? He's getting away with it and it could really be a seller's worst headache.
I tried to find a telephone number for the name and address where I mailed the item and there is none.
I'm only trying to caution other sellers that it is happening. Don't let this crook waste your valuable time. Be prepared; I wasn't.
posted on August 31, 2001 10:31:25 PM new
I don't get it. The actual winner didnt contacted you within the 3 day window. Then the fraudulent bidder contacted you, stating that he was the winner's friend in another state. the fraud sent you the money and you sent the item to the fraudulent winner. Did I get this correct? or am I missing something? Or was it that the real winner sent you the money.
posted on August 31, 2001 11:46:43 PM new
That's right. I tried to explain this clearly but it was hard. After seeing how confusing it is to understand for others, I'm beginning to feel better about myself and falling for it.
Yes, the winning bidder did not contact me.
The fraud winner called me immediately saying 'his foot was out the door for 2 weeks, on the job, and he was bidding for a friend in another state and payment was coming from the friend and to please accept payment from the friend for this item and mail it to him' He was trying to take care of his auction buys before leaving town and that's why he was calling, etc. This fraud winner stated that he was the winning bidder, from.... etc.
I checked through eBay and the winning bidder's name was that and he lived in that state. I believed the fraud/impersonator.
At this point, no one had completed or responded to my AW form. I honored the request after receiving the money from the fraud's friend or whomever it was.
After mailing the item, then the winning bidder contacted me and you know the rest.
It was smooth....and I should have asked for everything to be confirmed through email or at least that he take the time to complete my AW form, but I didn't. It was so convincing and smooth.
posted on September 1, 2001 07:48:00 AM new
blconner, I understand now. Here is my opinion for what it's worth. The winner didnt contact you within the 3 days, as he should of. So, basically, you could say that he defaulted on the sale. The impersonator, although he/she didnt win the auction, DID send you the money and you DID send the item to this person. So you were able to make the sale anyway. You didnt loose any money on the deal, no additional listing fees etc.
After thought here. I am just wondering if these two are in cahoots with each other. Sure sounds like it is possible. I have heard of this before.
Yes, we ALL need to be VERY CAREFUL when it comes to our auctions. Thank goodness you didnt lose any money on the experience. If someone who won an auction actually called me, I would be VERY concerned. How did they get your phone number?
posted on September 2, 2001 09:58:02 AM new
You really lucked out because you got paid for the item - and the real winner was understanding - The scam guy didnt use his ebay account so not much ebay could do to him. I guess you have to be on your toes all the time. Good luck
Ed
posted on September 2, 2001 10:26:07 AM new
My phone number is listed in my AuctionWatch Storefront. It probably wasn't too hard to get that. Because of that, I didn't think too much about someone contacting me by phone. I've had others contact me by phone before; not often, but at least two others have.
One thing that was curious, now that you mention my telephone number, is that just before all this happened, I received one of those notices from eBay that someone had requested my personal information. It was a completely different email name. This person had bid on one of my items.
This person also retracted the bid stating they had bid on the wrong item, but they never bid on anything else that I had. They got my information through eBay.
I never heard from that person as far as I know. I thought about this later but can't be sure that the two curious/unusual things are related. Too, I convinced myself that my number is available without any trouble anyway so it probably has nothing to do with the above mess I've described.
I just want others to be sure and learn from my mistake. I had never actually heard of anything like this before. I've heard of being taken for the money, etc., but this?
No, my winning bidder was wrong not to contact me sooner. I was wrong, however, not to have used all the tools available to be sure it was the winning bidder that contacted me.
It seems a lesson for buyers is: Do contact a seller within three days.
The lesson for sellers is: Do insist on having your AW form completed or at least having the person, if you speak with them by phone, to send something through email confirming what was said in the conversation.
I feel AW's form is a seller's best protection of all. It goes directly to the winning bidder and he responds from that.
posted on September 2, 2001 01:32:00 PM new
The AW form : when you post an auction using AW there is an automatic Winning bid notice which goes to the winner - it contains a link to a webpage where your winning bidder can fill in his payment and shipping information. Its a great timesaver for sellers.
posted on September 4, 2001 03:02:10 PM new
So basically your "fraud" guy did a post-auction snipe?? Hmm, verrry interesting, und clever, too!
I'm not totally clear on your details, but maybe you were also the victim of bid manipulation if there was a late retraction....?
Did the widget go for cheap?
posted on September 4, 2001 06:38:36 PM new
So sorry my details are confusing, but it was terribly confusing to me.
My widget did go cheap. My actual winning bidder said that it was worth three times what I got. He insisted that he had left a substantial maximum bid in order to get it. It never got that high; he had no competition.
Too, to clarify re the bid retraction. The retraction was on an entirely different item I had for sale; not the widget in this discussion. The only reason I mention it is that when the retractor said they made a mistake and bid on wrong item, they mentioned that my widget was the item they 'meant' to bid on and yet they never did bid on it.
posted on September 4, 2001 09:48:43 PM new
Boy, if I won an auction for an item worth three times the winning bid price I kinda think I might contact the seller within THREE days!
posted on October 13, 2001 10:38:56 AM new
You have something against contacting your winning bidder if he/she misses the three-day cutoff? Why?
On Epier where I currently auction, BOTH buyer and seller get notified. I usually contact the winning bidder but occasionally one will contact me first. For the life of me I cannot understand why you, as seller, must wait for the winner to contact you. And, even if you must, why wouldn't you contact them before worrying about a simple email?
I would NEVER ship something to an address other than the winning bidder's. Seems like you'd be asking for trouble since this action typically involves some type of fraud. Just think: Paypal supplies a confirming address. Why bother if you casually mail an item to another, unconfirmed address?
posted on October 13, 2001 09:33:33 PM new
BobAlberti, I'm afraid that my posts were confusing to many here.
Addressing your specific concerns: No, I do not have something against contacting a winning bidder. That's why I use AuctionWatch. It makes it so easy. I contact the winning bidder promptly within two to three hours after an auction closes.
I've never waited for a 'winner' to contact me first. I try to contact them first to encourage them to complete AW's form which makes processing the transaction so much easier. Many winners, however, do not respond as promptly. That too isn't a problem with me or had not been until this happened.
I was contacted by phone by the imposter winner many days after having sent the AW form to the winner who had not responded.
The caller said he was the winner from the correct town/city. I checked that out through eBay. I admit to being naive in taking his word, but having never experienced any bad happenings in a year of selling, I accepted it. Too, the fact that the actual winner had not yet responded to my initial contact to him, it was easy to think it was the actual winner.
Even when the winner did, at last, respond, I sent another 'contact email' to him questioning that he had asked me to send the item to so-and-so and asking that he get back with me immediately to confirm this information, and he still didn't PROMPTLY get back with me. So much time had passed that I had already received the imposter's call, and received the money order. I then held the money for three or more days waiting for a response from the winner, and still the winner didn't get back with me. I mailed it as requested by the caller.
I have been asked many times to send something to another address and had never had a problem doing this during a year of selling. I try very hard, perhaps too hard, to accommodate my customers and that's what I naively thought I was doing here.
I do not believe that it is always fraud when someone asks you to send it elsewhere. Just recently I was asked by a military person to mail it elsewhere because they are being transferred this week to another state. There are reasons to send things to another address.
Too, PayPal was not involved in this transaction. A post office money order was sent to me.
You can easily be fooled online and there are no safeguards for every situation. I posted here to remind others that the safeguards in place here at AuctionWatch should be used in addition to being aware that such is happening at eBay.
Many do not feel my situation was fraud at all since I was paid. I, as a seller, do not feel that way. Someone took the time to be an imposter in order to get something that was not won by them, thus the winner and I were victims, to my way of thinking. Never would I do that to one of my winners knowingly.
Fortunately for me, the winner has chosen to continue to do business with me; several times since this all happened. He does understand that we were both 'duped' and both of us were wrong in handling it all correctly. I actually consider him a new online friend.
Personally, I think it would be a mistake to think that something similar can't or won't happen to you. It can happen to anyone. It just happened to me this time.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:09:56 PM new
ebay business model calls for fixed price shops and more corporate repsresentation,after reading this post and many other posts by individual sellers and buyer,i agree with ebay.
the only way to bring down cost,and bring in profitability is to do it the corporate way where mass production,mass selling which result in standard quality and design,better customer service and good forecasting of sales and profits with expenses in line with sales and volume .
there is no way we can enjoy what we enjoy now if each car or truck is built by hand,each house is built by hand,each transaction requires special handling and is unique.
even at 50 cents an hour,the cost will be so high we would still be in the stone age.
ebay sees no light at the end of the person to person buy and sell tunnel,some of us look forward to the day person to person transaction be cut down to minimum.
I also see it as a kind of "theft." Someone else took away the item, and the real bidder could have done more than to be nice and let him/her go.
You are lucky that winner was a nice person.
Hmmm, any address or name or any info on that money order, or is it possible to get info on the sender of the money order if you were the receiver? I mean, any way to know the exact place it was mailed from?
