posted on March 10, 1999 01:17:00 PM new
With the recent actions by Ebay and the News media I can see a time in the not to distant future when the sale of firearms on the net will be illegal if something is not done now.
This is a compiled list of ideas from discussions on Ebay on how to keep firearms sales on the Internet.
I would like feedback on what you think and any ideas you have. I realize that you can never make any thing 100% certain but I also believe that anyone that manages to make the effort to get around this proposal is going to get a weapon no matter what you do. If you see a loophole let us know and we will figure a way to close it.
Proposal for method of sale of firearms on the internet. Firearms as used in this document refers to All Firearms ,Antiques, and Curios, and airguns where applicable. A. Problems of sales. 1. Illegal sales. a. Sales to minors b. Sales to persons not allowed to own firearms by law. c. Sales that do not comply with BATF rulings on Interstate sale of firearms. d. Conflicting State Laws. B. Steps of sales 1. Listing 2. Sale a. Auction b. Classified c. FFL dealer sites. 3. Payment 4. Delivery C. Proposals 1. Verification of buyer and seller for access to firearms listings a. Verification through in place Instant Check. If you want to be registered you have an authorized person run a background check at your expense prior to having access to firearms listing and submit the approval to the venue you will be using. This can be back checked. b. Credit Card submission or Credit Check. In my opinion not as good as C.1.a. At this point we are not allowing the transfer of the firearm just the listing and offer to buy. This should be sufficient for this purpose. c. Users should have to be reverified yearly. 2. A list of approved FFL holders willing to ship and receive firearms. a. To be approved they need to submit a signed copy of their FFL plus State lic. to the venue. b. If you wish to use other than an approved FFL holder you must have them or yourself submit a signed copy of their FFL before bidding or listing on any item. 3. Although not required by BATF all firearms must be shipped FFL to FFL. a. This adds a level of protection for all parties. b. Each sales should have 2 fields on the transaction form one for sign off of shipping FFL and one for sign off by receiving. c. All Title 2 firearms would not be allowed. d. By shipping FFL to FFL you insure State Laws are complied with. 4. Ways to insure compliance a. Any sale that does not comply with the FFL sign offs with in a predetermined time would automatically be sent to a BATF contact for follow up. b. All sales would run till item is sold or seller contacts the venue to remove it. 1. If the item is being sold in a reserve type auction then once the reserve has been met the item would run for a predetermined time. c. All sales would be submitted for a random spot check for compliance. d. All sellers and bidders would remain anonymous till the end of sell when only the high bidder and seller would be notified by Email with contact information. e. Proxy bidding would not be allowed to limit confusion among bidders and maintain anonymity. f. In the event of a high bidder backing out of the sell. 1. The seller may request info on the second high bidder. g. If the high bidder or seller backs out they would be suspended for 1 month for 1st offense and 1 year for 2nd, a third offense would warrant permanent suspension. There should be a appeal process. h. Users should be able to flag sales for review 1. Flagged sales would be suspended immediately and no longer viewable pending review. 2. A board of volunteer FFL holders could be used to review the flagged sales. 3. There should be a way to keep track of users that abuse this feature. 4. Depending on severity of offense the lister may be suspended. 5. A user that is determined to be abusing this feature would be suspended.
[This message has been edited by kadric (edited March 10, 1999).]
posted on March 10, 1999 10:34:00 PM new
Probably one of the most exhaustive efforts we have seen on the validation argument that firearms can be safely sold on the internet.
You probably know the NFA better then most BATF agents.
We applaud your efforts. You have instituted safeguards that we wouldn't have thought of.
We shared your work product with a BATF agent friend who found no loopholes in your effort.
posted on March 11, 1999 02:11:00 PM new
A couple of people have Emailed me with questions, One was to tell me that they had tried to have employees checked using Instant Check and was informed that it could not be used for this porpose. This could be because the person themselves did not request it,or it may not be allowed at all. If the 2nd then you could still have the FFL verify that the person is who they say they are by either by direct feedback or by assigning a unique number to the person to submit. As stated this is not for the transfer but to allow a person access to list or bid in this area.
Another saying there should be a inspection period at the receiving FFL's site As much as I agree with this I believe this should be up to the Venue or seller.
posted on March 11, 1999 09:18:00 PM new
Thanks Sellbid...
posted on March 21, 1999 11:12:00 PM newedit
Only addition I would make is to include signed letter from FFL holder that they are willing to handle shipping for this seller/buyer and that the FFL holder would notify auction site if they change their policy in respect to this seller/bidder. I would prefer to require seller/buyer to find FFL holder and submit this info, as using name from approved list would not work for me as I will never list as I only handle sales for people I know and have previously met in person.
posted on March 21, 1999 11:28:00 PM new
korvette: I would agree with the signed letter from FFL as to a approved list it would be your right not to be on the published list. The approved list would enable someone that does not already know a FFL personelly to be azble to find a FFL in their area that would be willing to handle the transaction for them.
posted on March 21, 1999 12:00:00 PM newedit
I believe that Shotgun News-publishes a list of FFL dealers willing to handle "transactions" and what their fees are.
posted on March 30, 1999 02:32:00 PM new
It is a very straight forward issue by Federal statute; a firearm shipped interstate MUST be received by a FFL dealer. It is illegal to ship to other than an FFL in another state. It is illegal to make a person-to-person sale of a handgun to a resident of another state, even if he is visiting you at your home. The sale must go through an FFL in his home state. The exception is a long gun can be sold to a resident of an ajoining state. All other Federal, State, and Local laws apply; it makes NO DIFFERENCE if the sale originated in a newspaper ad, an internet site, a sales catalog, or The Word From God. There are NO exceptions! Any other issue is manufactured by politicians, and/or the dreaded Federal Government ...
posted on April 25, 2000 09:56:14 AM new
Just an update, here are some pending Bills in Congress dealing with this issue. By no means are these all of the Firearms bills pending just those that deal with the Internet.
In the House
H.R. 1245 (Rush): This bill would make it unlawful to operate an Internet web site for the purpose of offering firearms for sale or exchange (or "facilitating" such a transfer) unless the web site operator is a FFL who notifies BATF of the site. In the case of an FFL web site operator who is offering a firearm on behalf of a non-licensee, the act prescribes extensive requirements to insure that the transfer complies with all federal requirements governing transfers from licensees to non-licensees.
H.R. 1702 (Mink): This bill would criminalize any "offer to obtain or dispose of a firearm" over the Internet.
H.R. 3020 (Crowley): This bill would criminalize firearms sales over the Internet, subjecting violators to a five-year mandatory minimum prison sentence.
In the Senate
S. 534 (Torricelli): This bill would give BATF the authority to prescribe any regulations it deemed necessary in connection with the "design, manufacture, and performance of, andcommerce in, firearm products ... to reduce or prevent unreasonable risk of injury...." This includes the power to ban any or all firearms, and
the power to conduct whatever inspections BATF deems appropriate. Any person is specifically authorized to petition BATF to issue regulations or order a recall. The bill goes on to require BATF to regulate firearms in much the same way the FDA
regulates drugs, requiring extensive testing, labeling, record keeping, etc., and civilly and criminally punishing anyone who fails to comply with these labyrinthine requirements. "Stockpiling" firearms is explicitly outlawed, as is dealing in "imminently hazardous firearms (as defined by BATF)," and people are specifically encouraged to sue the firearms industry to enforce any provision of this act.
S. 637 (Schumer): This bill would make it unlawful to operate an Internet web site for the purpose of offering firearms for sale or exchange (or "facilitating" such a transfer) unless the web site operator is a FFL who notifies BATF of the site. In the
case of an FFL web site operator who is offering a firearm on behalf of a non-licensee, the act prescribes extensive requirements to insure that the transfer complies with all federal requirements governing transfers from licensees to non-licensees.
PS. I did not check the cookie so my wife Id showed in the posted by section, Kadric.
[ edited by kadric2 on Apr 25, 2000 09:58 AM ]
