posted on August 31, 2000 07:35:45 PM
Hey the recent summer discussions on shipping and handling gouging has sparked me to think. Those current discussion have several posters actually justify fellow sellers gouging on shipping. In fact many of them blame the buyer and say Read the TOS before you bid, Don't dare question me after you bid. Well before we go into a possible explanation of why those bids go down. Let's look into why a person would bid when the shipping isn't clearly stated or seems a little outrageous. Here's a few reasons why I used to bid when I saw those funny shipping quotes.
1. Maybe the seller uses a template and didn't change the shipping from the last listing he used the template for.
2. Maybe if I show where the charges are unreasonable. They will reconsider to close the deal. Especially once they see I have no problem with a negative feedback exchange.
3. Maybe they meant to hit the 3 key and instead hit the 6 key.
So your buyers are reading those TOS's and hoping that you made a mistake or typo and because of your stellar feedback are willing to deal with you and correct the mistake before sending money. I know many of you will say they should email first. Given the three reasons above and the fact that 50% of auctions are now sniped in the closing minutes who has time for that. Afterall that charge is outrageous and the seller should be professional enough to accept that.
Well now for the reason your bids go down.
Heck maybe when your bids go down it has nothing to do with ebay sales being slow. Maybe those buyers are starting to follow your advice and are reading those TOS's and deciding to buy elsewhere. Heck lord knows ebay is doing its part to attract new business. They partnered with VISA for that rather silly commercial. They have increased banner advertising on other sites. And they recently stated that membership has grown from 12 million to 16 million within a recent 60 day period.
So next time your bids go down don't start a thread for auction watch user sympathy. Go and make sure your Terms Of Service (TOS) is buyer friendly and fair. Heck they are reading and can clearly see you are a shipping crook or worse have some very unbusiness terms to do business.
posted on August 31, 2000 08:19:55 PM
I suggest that newer Sellers here on AW cut and paste a copy of their current TOS and let's all have a go at it with some helpfull sugestions?
Believe me when I say that AW has helped mine a TON and given me so much to think about. Shouldn't everyone have that chance?
Some sellers that visit this forum beleive they are the CEO of a Giant Corporation, and have published a 5,000 page catalog, and the lowly bidder is begging for credit.
You can usually gain a real insight to a person by the TOS.
posted on August 31, 2000 08:37:45 PM
OK Borillar, here's a typical TOS that I use (ship cost is adjusted if it's say, a heavier item):
Winning bidder prepays bid in U.S. funds plus actual USPS Priority Mail of $3.20. Payment must be received within TEN days of auctions closing. Money orders, Cashier's Checks or Credit Cards via PayPal accepted. Personal checks accepted from bidders with at least 30 feedback posts, positive. (Sorry, cannot ship international.) All Sales Final.
NO RESERVE HAS BEEN PLACED ON THIS ITEM! To the best of my belief, this item is not misrepresented in any way (standard disclaimer). Bids from anyone with a negative feedback rating or hidden feedback may be rejected!
that ok??
[ edited by rigdon625aolcom on Aug 31, 2000 08:38 PM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 08:43:39 PMnetworker67: You did catch that reply that I made towards your insimuation that Im gouging . . . didn't you? If not, go back and re-read http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=247749
[ edited by Borillar on Aug 31, 2000 09:10 PM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 08:46:32 PM
Bids are down? Why didn't anyone tell me about this state of affairs? And here I was sure they were UP! (I know mine are!)
posted on August 31, 2000 09:02:43 PM
"bidding down maybe its your TOS"
This problem with watching a message board like this for clues of how bidding is going is this.
AW only has a small percentage of the sellers who use this board maybe less then
1 tenth of 1 percent of the sellers and even smaller amount of buyers.
If you watch this board you will see this one week everyone is doing the happy dance sales are flying for the next few weeks sales are off or items not getting the bids they usually get.
every time my sales go up some one elses goes down. sale maybe honestly notably lower in the summer. but also look at it this way for every three new sellers ebay gains one was a former buyer who will be buying less or not at all on ebay selling more.
Every one in the free world is getting the I need to get rich on the net bug. were at a point right now where near all want to be the seller no one wants to be the buyer.
The job market is getting the same everyone wants to be there own boss wants there own business if you dont beleave this just take a ride around a town with a few factorys about between 10 am and midnight lots that were loaded with workers day and night with 400 to 500 workers are now running shifts with 20 to 25 trying to do more then 80 or 100 use to do they hold job fairs that 2 people show up for.
There was a thread here last night that said it best Most TOS are the results of many who have never had control or big power that effected anything before.
Exsample Imgine haveing a TOS in a resturunt like they use on auctions Diner has 15 mins after food is servered to send payment after your meal is served or your order will be canceled or sold to the next diner.
How about this eatting at a resturunt with a bar cocktail lounge with a sign as you walk in, we do not accept orders for water outside the dinning area.
Handleing fee $4.00 for doggy bag.
I find the more you make rules the more tempted or challanged people are to find a work around or simply break them.
secondly think abot this many people selling are thinking about selling full time many already are to get some freedom from bosses and ridged rules.
The buyer out there are Doing the same frist they would have to drive to the mall flea market fight for parking walk 10 miles to get in only to find they have to take a rain check for what they wanted it sold out or they have sales people all over then every time you touch something they are on you can I help you or what is it your looking for they want to get away from the rigid rules and hastle too.
and all we are finding is we all came this far to see that we have created rules and terms that are tougher then they were orginally trying to get away from in the begining.
im not a big on line buyer im a seller I have not many rules mainly you buy pay any way you can I will sell to you but.
has anyone ever asked why all the tos is mainly on the buyer why is it they must send the money frist to get Items??? is it were saying the money is more valuable then the goods that are being bought.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:05:26 PMrigdon625aol.com:
That's a very nice TOS, more open than most and you disclose your facts straight enough. There's not much room for any constructive criticism, but I'll give it a whirl.
I suggest that you drop that part about misrepresentation, as it only puts thoughts into the minds of buyers that likely weren't there origionally. Your feedback ought to be enough to convince people that you know what you're doing.
Of course, I have no idea what it is that you sell. If it was artwork, I could understand having the disclaimer in there.
"prepays bid" Huh? Why not just make it easier and say, "Winning bidder to pay bid in U.S. funds . . . etc"?
As many a Seller can vouch for, checks rarely bounce from Buyers. You may have perfectly good reasons for dis-allowing bidder with less than 30 feedback (as do most of us), but my suggestion is to handle that in your EOAB, rather than your TOS. Here's how we handle it in our EOAB:
The Buyer, named in the agreement below, refers to the individual who made the actual winning bid or purchase for the item(s) in fact. The Payer, also named in the agreement below, refers to the individual whose private or business banking account that the check is actually drawn upon. The So-and-So Company, named in the agreement below, refers to the Seller of the item(s) in fact to whom the Buyer and/or Payer are monetarily liable to in this case.
BY THE ACT of you: the Buyer and/or Payer issuing a check as payment to So-and-So Company Company in Your City, Your State, hereby agree to all terms and conditions set forth in this Check Acceptance agreement. If Buyer and/or Payer disagree with any or all parts of the agreement below, the only recourse available to Buyer and/or Payer have is to send some other form of payment that is more acceptable to themself(s) and to Your Name, d/b/a So-and-So Company in Your City, Your State as outlined elsewhere in this complete document.
IN consideration for Your Name, d/b/a So-and-So Company in Your City, Your State accepting your check, you, the Buyer and/or Payer, agree to be responsible for any collection costs and reasonable attorney fees should it become necessary for Your Name, d/b/a So-and-So Company in Your City, Your State to commence collection proceedings. You, the Buyer and/or Payer, further agree that the laws of the State of (Your State) shall govern and control any court action in this case. The Buyer and/or Payer further agree that should court action become necessary, service of process may be made by sending any court documents or other documents to my business or home address by registered mail, return receipt requested.
IF for any reason whatsoever any check issued by Buyer and/or Payer is returned to Your Name, d/b/a So-and-So Company, the Buyer and/or Payer agree to pay an $18.00 Service Charge. If said check may not be redeposit, Buyer and/or Payer agrees to send forthwith a Money Order or Cashier's Check in the amount of the original check plus $18.00 to Your Name, d/b/a So-and-So Company in Your City, Your State. If Buyer and/or Payer elect not to replace said check, Buyer and/or Payer agree to return forthwith to Your Name, d/b/a So-and-So Company any merchandise for which said returned check was offered; postage prepaid and insured. Replacement Money Order or Cashier's Check, or return of merchandise shall be made within five days after Your Name. d/b/a So-and-So Company in Your City, Your State sends notice by first class mail to my business or home address.
* * * * * * * *
That is a legally binding document that gives you all the rights to collect on bad debts and for Buyers who aren't sure about the money, they use Visa or MasterCard instead.
You other thing of All Sales Final. I had that on mine for the longest time. But if finally made sence for me to clarify it a bit. I tell them that if we screw up on an item, we'll make good on it and at most, offer and exchange or credit. That's less harsh and less likely to shove bidders away.
YUou don't have to do anyting I suggest, but you may wish to mull it over a bit.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:34:29 PM
I give the buyer their preference of mailing and I never charge anymore than it costs me to mail the package. If I had read that TOS that said payment within 10 days I would back out right away. I am not a seller that makes a living on ebay so if I don't receive the check in x amount of days I can wait. I also back out of an auction if shipping charges are way above the normal, well my normal. I can wait, another item will be along shortly. That is the advantage of ebay.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:42:38 PM
I have to agree with KathyG's post. When I go to a page that has nine miles of "affidavit" as their TOS, including all the reasons why they may CHOOSE not to honor the auction (have seen some wierd reasons..) I don't even stop to read the description. I can't understand this "concentration camp" mentality. My TOS are flexible, and my shipping is too. I take checks, paypal, cash, firstborn (teehee) whatever they *want* to PAY me with (that *IS* the point isn't it?? getting paid?)I don't make the bidder jump through hoops to get their item, And I don't make feedback threats. I am sick of sellers with scads of CONDITIONS that have to be met before they will sell an item, And in some cases they threaten neg feedback in their TERMS! As if the seller is doing the bidder a *favor* by ALLOWING them to bid. These sellers need to get a grip. If your there to make money, then you should be ready to do a little negotiating. And when did the world become so RUDE? some of these sellers have the bidder on trial before they have even bid! Its a terrible way to treat potential customers in mho.
J.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:47:44 PM
Borrilar....why not just package a lawyer up in with the auction winning..and send him along just in case there is any misunderstanding on all that RED TAPE..GOOD GRIEF..
posted on August 31, 2000 09:52:41 PM
Borillar - True, you didn't ask for advice, but if I were your customer and if I got that "letter" from you, in any form, I would never buy from you again.
Rigdon - Since you did ask, the tone is a bit harsh. Perhaps you might want to say "payment is requested and due within 10 days of auction closing".
As to the feedback, you might say "due to past incidents, I have instituted the policy of only accepting personal checks from those with a 30+ positive feedback rating".
As to international sales " At this time, I am not set up to process international sales and regret any inconvenience this may cause any bidders".
Just some thoughts, hope I didn't offend you as that was certainly not my intention.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:55:02 PM
Some of the TOS I've seen are laughable, they treat every buyer like a thief. Some sellers lose sight of the fact they are dealing with real people.
I might be naive, but it's a damn sight healthier and a LOT more fun than being paranoid.
posted on August 31, 2000 09:58:57 PM
midnight I agreee there I dont buy a lot but I do surf the sites and look at auction read tos read ads and check whats selling whats not.
I always get the feeling reading these that I am the guilty party yet I havent even made the bid.
leave me feeling like What am I being sued for if I bid ??
I go with NO TOS but the Shipping inside USA and if the postage is less on the package you receive then then you will get the break next time
I dont pack my item before I sell and run them to the PO to have them stamped frist double work I dont have enough sales to use a service for postage or to invest in a scale for now some day maybe but the best deals out there require you to pay monthly for good stamp services.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:06:17 PM
midnightdesigns: I have found that it is not usually practical to include a lawyer in the box, because they charge about $250/hr for travel time, even more for small boxes, and they can really suck up the bubble wrap.
On top of that, when they arrive they turn out to be completely unproductive due to inter-state laws and the fact the the judicial system is still afraid to deal with most internet transactions effectually.
It's a lot cheaper to just take your chances, and show a little faith in your fellow eBayers.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:15:27 PM
Here is my current TOS in it's entirety for carded 1/64 diecast cars:
Winning USA bidder pays $3.20 Priority Mail, or $2.25 First Class. A money order ships immediately, a check will have to clear first.
Winning international bidder pays exact USPS postage. A postal money order in US dollars seems to work fine.
USA bidders can use a credit card at PayPal .
International bidders can use a credit card at Bidpay .
That's it. Current FB 705 with 1 Neg (an undeserved neg, of course)
Borillar:
From other posts you have made I gather that you are concerned with looking "Professional", in my opinion that EOA check notice does not make you look professional.
A TOS with an accusing tone and paranoid EOA crap will always send a seller to my LTS file (Life's Too Short)
--------------
Don't take life so serious, it ain't nohow permanent.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:20:30 PM
Dman3:
I picked up a Postal Scale at Costco for about 25 bucks. It was worth every penny.
--------------
Don't take life so serious, it ain't nohow permanent.
If you are bidding on auctions with no intention of honoring the stated terms of sale, then that is
DISHONEST. Doesn't ebay say somewhere that a bid is a binding contract?
You never saw that?? Oh, too busy sniping.
Of course, if you are willing to act in bad faith by ignoring a sellers terms of sale, then I suppose it would be naive of me to expect you to follow ebays terms of use.
Contact the seller before bidding? Big waste of time - I need to snipe. Besides, the answer might be no! It's much better to have "an exchange of negative feedback" (read Mutually Assured Destruction), than actually run the risk of being told - THOSE ARE MY TERMS - TAKE 'EM or LEAVE 'EM
There is a big flaw in alot of these arguments: The idea that everybody should have access to whatever they want, how they want it - it sounds so nice, too. But it doesn't work.
I would really like to move to the upscale community on the edge of town. The money is no problem, and alot of my friends live there. It would be a great move for me. BUT... I'm disabled, and probably couldn't keep up with all the maintenance covenants and conventions they require without hiring for eveything and going broke.
You know what? That's just too bad. Since I can't meet the terms of ownership there, it isn't for me.
Someone will move there who has two good legs, and both of their feet, and can trim their own hedges. It's not the communities fault, they want nice hedges, and they warned me up front. It's not your seller's fault, they don't want to lose money on shipping, and they warned you up front.
You really think it is too much for someone to make $1.50 to pack and address your new toy? Wait until you go begging to pay someone $15 an hour to trim a hedge.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:45:56 PM
As many times as I have posted that little treat on AW, it never fails to shock many people.
I honestly do include this with every bill. I receive 70% personal checks and none have bounced - so far. Nor have I ever had any complaints.
It is true that I believe that an entirely professional look accompanied by unusually high professional serivce goes a long way in beating your competitors on eBay. After all, my prices are a lot less than retail, so value isn't a concideration for me.
Yet, everyone, please note that I Do Not put that check acceptance agreement in BOLD and Italicised in my EOABs. I did that just for this post. It is entirely a lot less draconian when you read my entire EOAB.
Yes, it is legalese. But, when you go anywhere to shop, you see signs that make the same policy on their check machine. Many an e-commerece web site has a simular statement. But when it comes to an eBay Seller? PAH-LEE-SE!
It's a shock to the casual Seller, but for the serious merchant, anything less is incompetance in my book.
posted on August 31, 2000 10:58:18 PM
Good grief, borillar! You should pay your bidders to read that.
My tos: "Shipping is $---- in the U.S.
my EOL :
Congratulations!
You've won my auction of the above item for $ + $ shipping, a total of $ payable to:
Kenneth R. xxxxxxxx
xxxx xxxxxx Street
xxx xxxxxx, CA 9xxxx-xxxx
Please indicate the item you have purchased with payment. It will cut the confusion around here.
Thanks for Bidding!
Ken
and that's it. I ship next day on receipt of any form of payment and have had one check in which the buyer made good plus fees even before I was aware that the instrument had rubbered.
posted on August 31, 2000 11:08:14 PM
whereistheprophet - The essence and spirit of this thread apparently missed you. But let me say it loud and clear for you.
If you think for one minute you and any one else is going to hide behind my auction, my terms to justify what IMHO is outright fraud under the guise of a binding contract you get two thoughts and a wet dream
Yep I would neg a seller who insisted on padding the shipping to the tune of 100% or more. Would neg them as soon as they replied with that nonsense. Why because when I emailed them back about the shipping I would have their fair shipping itemized for them with fair profit figured in. They will either accept it or live with the consequences.
Sounds really radical and might disturb those with your mindset. However I said this in another thread which is why I started this one but I'll say it here for you. Sorry but you are not entitled to earn 20.00 per hour for your time to ship my package. Sorry you think your time is worth that much money but sorry pal it isn't.
I would bid because like it says at the top of this thread maybe the seller made a mistake. You people and your arguments about sellers TOS. You would think we were drawing up contracts to transfer a couple of million dollars or something. I hear sellers with your atitude whine because the payment came on day 11, my TOS says 10 days. They sent an American Express Money Order when my TOS says Post Office Money Order. I even have read TOS's that say wait for my email don't email me first.
I say this constantly, I am throughly convinced that before ebay the greatest entreprenuial endeavor of the average ebay seller was Running a lemonade stand at age eight.
I also say this a lot, [b]Judging by the attitudes about those TOS's, I am also convinced that a lot of ebay sellers have absolutely no control over nothing in their lives and are obsessed with power about those TOS's.
Wake up sellers smell that fresh coffee. This is business this isn't I will get away with murder because my TOS says I can. You wonder why Meg and ebay marketing are working night and day to change the garage sale image of ebay. Because so many of you refuse to get business like and professional with how you do business on ebay. So its time for you to change those attitudes or watch ebay sweep you and that crap right off the web. I'd hate to see ebay lose those that helped make it what it is today. But if getting rid of that mindset and attitudes will bring an air of true business sense and spirit to the site well maybe its time for those attitudes to go.
posted on August 31, 2000 11:15:00 PM
Borillar
Well no, I've never seen anything even remotely like that anywhere I've shopped.
What I see are signs that say:
"XX.XX Fee for returned checks"
I did not find it particularly shocking, or useful either.
Businesslike maybe, but I don't deal with businesses, I deal with people.
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Don't take life so serious, it ain't nohow permanent.
[ edited by honestjonstoys on Aug 31, 2000 11:18 PM ]
