posted on September 1, 2000 01:27:46 AM
We have such nice threads on sellers who gouge on shipping rates and the silliness they use to justify it. I got to thinking after replying to someone who purports that 20 dollars an hour might be fair wage to pack boxes and take them to the post office. Why should sellers stop the gouging there why not find other places to pad the profit from their piddly auctions. Here's some great places for those gougers to reap profits and its all okay as long as they put it in the TOS.
Why not add the Final Value Fees back into the auction and mark that up 100%. And your justifcation will be the buyer should have read my TOS before bidding.
Since we are doing that why not next charge the buyer the $99.95 fee for the featured auction. Hey its in the TOS so its fair or they wouldn't have bid.
Wowsers why not charge the buyer because you had to write the TOS, is 25 cents a word fair or do you think you can TOS a buck a word.
Since we are finding ways sellers can pad profits why don't we charge the buyer the interest charged on our credit cards when we don't pay our VISA's in full for the interest charged on the ebay charges.
Here's another one for the TOS gougers to consider. Why not charge the customer $5.00 extra for the luxury of your leaving feedback for the transaction. Charge $10.00 if they don't leave it for you first.
By all means add your own humorous ways for sellers to pad profits and make it legal as long as it is written in the TOS.
Here's one fresh from the mind of the networker. Why not charge $1.00 per email inquiry about the item before the auction closes. By the way since gouging is okay as long as it is in the TOS. All sellers who pad profits and post to this thread have to paypal me $5.00 for the luxury of participating. Thats the terms of posting for sellers who pad profits.
posted on September 1, 2000 03:33:20 AM
Interesting take on the situation, and it somewhat reflects how I feel about some TOS. Yes, if I don't like them, I won't bid.
I've certainly learned my lesson about not clarifying every little detail before bidding. (I paid $9.50 to receive a refill for a printer cartridge. Postage was $1.84 in a free Priority Box, with a handfull of peanuts.)
My argument is that I shouldn't have to clarify anything. The TOS should be clear and honest.
I saw one just last night that was very clear (although I will never buy from this seller). Returns are not refunded the "send" or "return" postage, the eBay fee is deducted from the purchase price, as are any credit card fees, and a re-stocking charge is levied against the refund amount (what's left of it). I couldn't believe this seller had over 600 feedback with very few negs & neutrals.
When a seller's TOS aren't clear enough to the point that I should need to email for clarification, just ignoring the auction and moving on does not send a strong enough message. The seller doesn't know what they don't know. IOW, they have no idea that I was interested in bidding and was turned off by their TOS unless I tell them.
I've personally never done this, and I suspect most sellers would just respond with "too bad." But really, this is just thumbing their nose at more potential income.
Some of you say that those of us who feel ripped off are wrong (in cases where, ie, the shipping charge is stated but postage arrives much much lower..) So it's our fault for accepting the stated charge and we should have checked first if we had questions. But the fact is, if I FEEL like I've been gouged, that is my perception of the situation, my feeling, and feeling is not necessarily fact. But the feeling is mine and nobody can tell me that my feelings are wrong. If I feel that I was ripped off, that's what I feel.
Anyhow, I'm rambling, but all these shipping and gouging threads have been rattling in my brain all week.
Just wanted to give my 2 cents worth. Have a great long week-end!
posted on September 1, 2000 03:54:31 AM
If I have any problem with these types of threads, it's that I can always expect a deluge of emails from customers who feel $4.05 for shipping a sugar bowl is 'gouging' them - because they read somewhere that's what 'sellers' do.
Perhaps 'deluge' is an exaggeration, nonetheless, the emails are always time consuming as a simple reply never appears to be satisfactory.
I spent yeterday in the driving heat of Texas attending, what my friends assured me was 'the best flea market in Texas' - it was a dismal dissapointment and the heat compounded the frustration.
The point is, there were no TOS' to read, no worrying of being gouged on shipping costs, no worry of 'hidden' or undescribed flaws - however, locating the seller to find the price of his merchandise was another story.
I think, as a buyer, I can live with a seller who feels the need to charge a 'little' extra for their time. For me, it becomes 'gouging' when the cost exceeds $1.00 or $2.00 depending on the size of the item. I will gladly pay an extra $5.00 bucks to insure that 'priceless' canvas arrives undamaged.
Personally, I just think it is difficult to tell when you are being 'gouged' until it is too late - "Oops!, You've Been Gouged!" (Kinda like being pinched on the rear.)
as the someone who (apparently) purports that $20 an hour to pack and ship boxes is reasonable, allow me to respond:
First, the $20 an hour figure is your own creation. My comment was $1.50 per parcel which from my experience /buying/ on ebay covers the average handling charge I've encountered. I keep reading all these horror threads about sellers charging grotesque handling charges, but amazingly, I run into very few of myself although I win numerous auctions each month.
Second, I don't know who you expect to pack and ship your stuff for you, but unless you want to pick it up yourself there are likely to be costs involved. The simple fact is that you want someone else to pay them for you. That is OK, too, but at least don't blame sellers who told you upfront that things aren't done that way. That isn't their problem, it's yours.
Being NARU isn't relevant to this thread?
Maybe all the new users who read the thread need to realize that not honoring the TOS of auctions you've bid on, and getting into negative feedback wars have consequences.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:17:42 AM
Since we are doing sarcasm, allow a little from the buyers side. I would LOVE to send this out to the next seller who hits me for 4 or 5 extra bucks for "handling":
Dear Winning SELLER:
Thanks for your EOA notice and since you chose to ADD previously undisclosed "handling" charges in your "ACTUAL SHIPPING" auction {I know: boxes, bubblewrap, gas, shoe leather, standing-in-line-time, accounting books for IRS, church contributions so you can pray in earnest that IRS never audits you, etc etc};
I have chosen to deduct the following BUYER EXPENSES from your total:
.33 cents for stamp to mail your payment
.05 cents for the envelope
3.50 for the certified check you demanded
1.50 for gas to take payment to PO
1.50 for gas to get to bank to buy check
.50 for garbage service to throw away
your used box and eight peanuts
.50 for electric used by computer to find
your auction
10.00 for general grief and because I
deserve to make that much for the
half hour it took to do all of it!
_________
$17.88 is MY "handling total"
When I deduct THAT figure from your EOA for the $5.75 collectible widget total of $16.50...you owe ME $1.33!!
Please do me the same coutersy and send a cashiers check or money order....cause I shouldn't trust you anymore than you thrust me! Payment AND widget is expected within three days or I will file a NPS form with eBay and neg you!
Thanks for letting me win your item and look forward to trading good feedback once you post a glowing positive for me!
hApPy aUcTiOnS!!
THAT is how a lot of us feel when we get treated like trailer trash! The VAST majority of sellers are GREAT and wonderful to work with....if eBay would just clean up the gougers!!!
{had to vent..loooooong week!}
Same Kawfee-n-Junque as on eBay...I aint afraid of who I am!
posted on September 1, 2000 07:31:11 AMkawfeenjunque - Hey you forgot to markup that stamp and envelope 100% like the gougers do on the box, envelope, and packing peanuts.
whereistheprophet - Actually you aren't the $20.00 per hour person I was mentioning. You aren't feeling guilty about anything are you? I started this thread so we could all take a step back and get a laugh out of the issue. Can't do nothing but laugh at it until you are the one being gouged. I say this for you though, my NARU is for debates in an ebay Chat Board the Q and A to be exact. So had nothing to do with buying or selling. And the main sellers I spent my money with on ebay now email me their lists of things they suspect I might take an interest in.
Gougers and shipping charge crooks might not like my style. But when a person takes the time to breakdown the overly inflated charge and compute one that is fair and includes a reasonable markup. The seller realizes they got caught gouging and most sellers just accept the proper charge and chalk it up to informed consumer. Don't beleive me read my feedback at networker67. Four transaction related negatives. Three from one dutch auction who all received refunds. One from a person who paid late with my permission and then quick fired a negative when bookrate took 2 weeks to deliver the book. The other negatives all come from debates in the Q and A.
noteye Sorry the gougers and crooks within the seller ranks and threads that expose them cause an honest seller with fair shipping rates and profit margin on the shipping some problems. No where do I say its not right to mark up shipping nor do I say handling charges are not fair. But I will shout from the highest mountain about the gouging to the extent of 100% or better markups. I just hope that common sense enters the buyers mind when reading the TOS and shipping quote to place the charges in line with the item. Because it is quite obvious that gougers and shipping crooks only see profits and then have the nerve to say it is fair because it is in my TOS. The not reading the TOS fee of $25.00 was funny.
mballai That was funny, thanks for keeping with the humorous twist on the thread.
posted on September 1, 2000 08:00:57 AM
Katy: Glad you got the TRUE meaning!
I have had this pet peeve for awhile, but it came to head last week when a seller actually had the gonads to try and justify an extra UNannounced handling charge of $4.50 with his two USED priority boxes and three pieces of Bounty towells!!! {I am cashing his "refund" check today}
Mama may have raised me short....she didn't raise me sTuPiD!!
Same Kawfee-n-Junque as on eBay...I aint afraid of who I am!
posted on September 1, 2000 08:46:50 AM
Brilliant, Jozi ! You, as opposed to many of the posters here, seem to have the ability to differentiate between what you feel and what is a fact. You have every right to feel ripped off at an outrageous extra charge, but you apparently deal with it in a reasonable way rather than letting your understandable emotional response assume the satus of FACT .
I, too, am annoyed when I see an unusually high shipping charge given in an auction, and, like you, I either don't bid or calculate the extra into the total I'm willing to pay and bid less. Much of my annoyance, however, is with fellow bidders who seem sometimes to stupidly bid the price up to the same level whether the shipping is $5 or $50 (maybe they're going to dictate the terms to the seller after after winning ).
Networker, I know your opening post was meant to be facetious, but in truth, if I encountered any of those terms in an auction, I would either not bid or take them into consideration as stated. For a buyer to not do so is just plain stupid.
My personal TOS, again:
Winning bidder to pay $2.00 s&h (USA) or $3.20 priority if desired. THANKS
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.
posted on September 1, 2000 04:36:17 PM
kathammer: ONCE again, the WHOLE point is being missed!
Nobody cares how high or ridiculous the s&h is....IF IT IS DISCLOSED!!
FAR FAR FAR FAR too many sellers are running auctions with TOS of "actual shipping" and including everything but grandma's support bras as a "cost" AFTER THE FACT!
All us dumba**, pain in the butt, ignorant, can't read, trouble-makin' buyers {who put LOTS of money in the sellers pockets} is to be TOLD IN THE TOS what fees are going to be tacked on after we win an auction!
I agree TOTALLY with you about passing on the auctions that list outta sight fees...my "back" button gets a lot of use when I start running across them.....but then I READ the TOS before I bid!
Same Kawfee-n-Junque as on eBay...I aint afraid of who I am!
posted on September 1, 2000 10:30:19 PM
I agree with you, Kawfee, about sellers who spring surprises or change their terms after the auction ends, but the opening post on this thread specifically addresses the TOS in the auction, NOT the end of sale message.
Some posters in this and other threads DO seem to care what the STATED s&h is if it doesn't meet THEIR criteria, whatever that might be, and don't seem to be able to just
"walk away" from such an auction.
It is beyond me how someone can be "gouged" by the FULLY DISCLOSED terms of an auction unless they allow themselves to be. No one is compelled either by force or necessity to buy from any particular seller.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.
posted on September 1, 2000 11:43:27 PM
cathammer - I love your take on what is a problem that will of itself destory ebay. But here's my take on it, see an item want it, the TOS has a shaky shipping quote but cash is king the seller will agree when his true costs with markup added are shown to them. Why do I take that view on it because according to ebay and I quote," people are basically good". Keeping that creedo in mind no matter how silly it actually sounds when you contrast it to the world today. I say maybe the seller made a mistake. I even pointed out three areas where I suspect the mistake may or may not have occurred.
I made my choice to bid and then the sellers gets a choice to complete under fair terms or not to complete and relist. If the item is a genuine steal of a deal no complaints from me to the seller. If I pay market price or market plus from a last minute person trying to snipe the item no biggie on the item. But big biggie if the seller has inflated and gouged on the price. Since people are basically good, a good person will accept that he/she got caught padding a little extra and come fair to a certain extent. If he/she doesn't and sends an email about my terms are final buyers like you should read the TOS.
My reply is then straight to the point, Sellers like you should stop tryng to pad your profits and master the art of fairly pricing your listings and placing them at times when market shows you will receive maximum value. Sorry won't be my loss that you can't turn a profit from your auction sales and have to resort to making up on the shipping. As such either we come to agreement on fair shipping or you can relist your item. Please let me know soon as I see an identical one ending soon and I am sure that seller realizes that closed deal with cash today is better than relisting tomorrow.
Here's a thought for you, When in business he who has the cash has the majority of the power unless the item itself is at a rarity where not selling it today will not result in a future loss tomorrow. Also keep in mind that in this household over $9,000.00 has been spent this year on ebay and I personally spent $4,800.00 of it from February to May 10, 2000. So I am buying pricier items and not dealing with sellers selling the lower priced stuff. Since they can click on the feedback and see the type of items that I have bought recently they can see that I spend bucks.
Also cathammer I bet this little policy of mine will really eat you up. When I confirm that I sent payment, I also tell the seller that it is my policy not to leave feedback for a seller until they leave my feedback. That also sits against a lot of sellers notions on when and who should leave feedback first.
posted on September 1, 2000 11:59:49 PM
Networker...my auction states exactly what you will pay in addition to the bid amount. If you bid you have agreed to my terms. If, after the auction ended I got an email from you that stated what you wrote above, my answer to you would be short and sweet...
"Networker,
As we seem to be unable to complete this sale under the terms as stated in the auction I am terminating the sale.
Amy"
If the item sold once, it will sell again. You aren't the only fish in the sea!
[ edited by amy on Sep 2, 2000 12:00 AM ]
posted on September 2, 2000 12:15:16 AM
Sure networker67, I'll relay your message over to the pizza place, and the flower shop everytime I order something. I can't believe they charge me more than the .32¢ a mile in gas/expenses. They have the gull to gouge me with $2.86 extra. They say they have to pay their worker to deliver the item. They should pay their worker with the profit of the pizza or flowers. I'm going to the pizza and flower chat boards to complain.
"If you lend someone $20, and never see that person again, it was probably worth it."
posted on September 2, 2000 12:35:34 AM
Networker, despite what you think is fair or reasonable, your tactics of trying to renegotiate sellers terms after the auction are a violation of eBay policy. I can also tell you it is a suspendable offense. Anyone who follows your advice will find themselves in your boat - permanently suspended from eBay.
posted on September 2, 2000 01:03:38 AM
twinsoft - Sorry not a violation of ebay policy. And furthermore my suspension had nothing to do with buying or selling on ebay. I know you would like to think that. But my real suspension was using @@@ with the 6th letter of the alphabet in a post to a person with views sorta like yours. And I did it after they proceeded to call me boy. I suspect overworked running around here clouded these threads with lies and innuendo is that person.
Now I know ebay for a fact has a notorious habit of adjusting, applying, and interpreting rules as they see fit. However let's not scare the poor bidders by lying about what the rules say. But then again knowing ebay support like I do. They might actually have told you that. But ask yourself do you really want to quote $12.50 an hour support personnel on contractual matters. I for one wouldn't.
And before you ask how do I know they only make $12.50 remember when we went to court they tried to pad their case to get it to the $50,000.00 in damages level to enter a Federal Court by saying they had to dedicate staffers to that Q and A mess of May through June. So they had to fork over those payroll records in discovery. I think our very detailed discovery request was what forced them to accept the agreement under my terms and not theirs. Then again it might have been that very detailed counter-suit that would have exposed a lot of their skeleton secrets tha the media would have had a field day with.
I see why they take a hands off approach to sellers gouging because they gouge records and pad their legal cases just to get them in Federal Court. Thank God I had the resources for good legal talent to peirce that veil of invincibility that they got you guys thinking exist out there in San Jose.
posted on September 2, 2000 01:22:52 AM
Networker67 - Well, if I got a buyer who tried to renegotiate my clearly stated TOS like you have just mentioned, I would void the sale and neg you after filing for FVFs with eBay. And I would do it gladly.
posted on September 2, 2000 01:54:18 AM
scribble - So what we exchange negatives. If you were smart you would just relist your item and get on with your life. File for your FVF and have the educated buyer show ebay where you unfairly charge excess markup for shipping and handling. By the way the practice is discouraged by ebay and then have the same educated buyer show ebay where legally your TOS can only apply to the bid and payment method since the shipping part of the contract cannot and is not binding until the terms of shipping and final destination/delivery point, is known to complete all parts of the contract. Yep they might give you back your fees but the buyer won't get hit with a NPB.
In fact gouging sellers have practically ruined that program designed to benefit sellers and deter bidders from running loose running up bids and never fulfilling their TOS binding obligation to buy the darn junk if they win it. Yep your fellow sellers ruined that by abusing it. Which explains change one to it and they still abuse it which explains why they aren't as quick to give those credits like they used too.
posted on September 2, 2000 06:33:44 AM
Networker wrote, "However let's not scare the poor bidders by lying about what the rules say. But then again knowing ebay support like I do. They might actually have told you that. But ask yourself do you really want to quote $12.50 an hour support personnel on contractual matters. I for one wouldn't."
A while back I posted a thread regarding a customer who tried to dictate terms of payment. As I recall, the buyer insisted on paying via Paypal though I didn't aceept that method. An eBay support rep (actually, one of the top supervisors) read the post and sent me an email asking for details. The user was suspended the next day. So yes, it is a suspendable offense. This is not a question of legality, it is a question of eBay's rules. And no, I didn't say that was the reason you were suspended from eBay.
In addition, users can check eBay's Request FVF Credit form and see that "bidder failed to honor terms" is sufficient to receive a warning. Three warnings earns an automatic suspension.
The worst kind of advice you can offer in these forums is to suggest that users violate eBay policy. As for your ethics, you bid in auctions and threaten negative feedback if the seller doesn't change his terms to suit you, and then deadbeat on the auction. You're not looking to buy, you're looking to make trouble.
Since you've accused me of lying, I will point out that you weren't suspended from eBay for swearing in the forums. You were suspended for shill bidding and other offenses. eBay took you to court and now you're prohibited from even logging on to eBay. You strut around the forums acting like you got one over on eBay. A person would be a fool to listen to your advice.
