posted on September 1, 2000 04:52:56 PM
True story. Looking for factual insights, not ethical or moral conclusions. Husband & wife walk into antique store in New Jersey. Wife is a visiting dealer. Husband is just tagging along. Guy accidentally breaks a $1500 porcelin doll into pieces.(100 year old). What is the guy's liability?
posted on September 1, 2000 04:55:23 PM
I would expect and request the guy pay the seller of the doll what it cost them to purchase the doll for their inventory.
posted on September 1, 2000 04:55:31 PM
I don't think he's liable. The shop owner should have insurance to cover the loss or the consignment customer leaving the doll with the shop should be insured.
When I had my items in a shop, I had to sign that I was responsible for my own insurance should anything break or get stolen.
Making a customer liable isn't a good way to conduct business.
posted on September 1, 2000 04:59:33 PM
It was an accident, not intentional.
Okay, more facts please.
1. Was he handling the doll and dropped it?
2. Was it on a shelf and he bumped the shelf, knocking the doll to the floor?
3. Was the doll encased in glass, in a locked cabinet? Did he break the glass to get to the doll?
Circumstances as you wrote them says he's not responsible. Different circumstances, such as 1 above, says yes he is responsible and should have offered to pay.
Circumstance 2, was the doll sitting too close to the edge? This would not be his fault.
Circumstance 3, call the cops and have him arrested.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:03:46 PM
State Police were called-took report with everyone present. Told store owner take it to small claims court.
Doll was positioned in a small rocking chair.
Guy accidentally stepped on one runner of the chair and the doll was propelled into the air and onto the floor, breaking it's face badly.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:13:18 PM
Umm--- as a small shop owner, I do not carry insurance on inventory. It is prohibitive! But do carry liability in case some lommox trips on the rocking chair. And claims neck pain. This was an accident. Good luck in small claims court but--hey-- I watch Judge Jerry--and this looks like an accident. No awards to the shop unless they carry that huge insurance coverage for inventory. Insurance agents get real hinky when you try to insure antique items. Who and what is the final authority on its actual value? JMHO.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:17:53 PM
Are you serious? They actually called the state police in?
If the doll was in a small rocking chair where anyone could step on the runner, the seller deserves what they got.
Putting a $1500 porcelain doll on a small rocking chair without some kind of restraint is just plain careless.
What if some kid stepped on it?
What if the shop owner stepped on it? Would the owner sue himself?
Are you the owner of the shop? I don't think you'll stand a chance. You really should have each person insure their items individually, so you don't have to bear the brunt of the costs yourself. But to call in the state police? Sheesh..the guy wasn't stealing, but was made to feel like a criminal for an accident that could have been prevented if the chair was out of the way of invading feet.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:20:08 PM
The "value" of the doll is reasonably proven.
The value issue won't come into play unless the liability is there. The rocker & doll were positioned in probably the narrowest part of the store. I've looked at that doll for the last 2 months and thought "there's an accident waiting to happen". Never said a word to the shop owner.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:22:55 PM
The state police were called in because it's such a small town that it has no police force of it's own and the state police provide the coverage when called & patrol the town as part of their larger duties.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:27:51 PM
But, why the police at all? It was an accident caused by the placement of the rocker. You said it was an "accident just waiting to happen," and it did. The liability falls with the shop owner, not the customer who stepped on an ill-placed chair runner.
I sure hope the guy can win this case. If it was me in his shoes, I'd be pretty angry. All he has to do is photo the chair in the narrow space and prove to the court that there was not enough room for the average person to even walk. He's won hands down.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:34:46 PM
The police were called because that's what the angry shop owner decided to do when the couple refused to pay. I personally think that the couple were justified in not paying due to the circumstances but I kept my opinions to myself and got out of the way and let the interested parties handle things. No one asked for my opinion at the that time. The shop owner honestly believes the guy is liable-I think she's in for a surprise.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:42:13 PM
I think so too and she's going to be floored when she gets it. Wonder if the guy will say his foot was hurt? hmmmmmm...
posted on September 1, 2000 05:45:42 PM
Wow. Bummer! I have been in shops and mall booths, where it's so full of stuff placed willy-nilly that I'm worried to even turn around because I might break something fragile. Other times I've thought that these type spaces could even be dangerous to a customer trying to get to something to look at it. What if he stepped on something causing him to trip? If that runner rocker hit the guy on the shin, the shop owner better worry that HE'LL sue her for medical damages, heh heh.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:51:22 PM
We don't insure our dealers items in our shop. According to insurance agents, a dealer rents the space, either a booth or a case, and the dealer is responsible to insure their own items. It's explained to us that it's like an apartment renter. The space you rent is like your apartment and you must insure your own items.
We would never allow a doll with this value to be left out in the open in our shop. We can always find a spot in a locked case for items like this. We'd rather protect the dealers from shoplifters, unsupervised children and accidents-waiting-to-happen.
It's so easy for customers to start looking and get distracted.
At our shop sometimes the customer pays for a broken item, sometimes not. Depends on the circumstances.
But once, we had a small authentic Tiffany lamp on the counter waiting for payment from a customer who had just agreed to purchase it. Another customer and her boyfriend walk up to the counter, pick-up the lamp, turn it over. The shade falls off, breaks into pieces. She wanted to see the Tiffany mark because her name was Tiffany. Her boyfriend said "that thing must have been spring-loaded." Didn't seem to care that they had turned it upside down.
Needless to say, they were required to pay. And, in fact, her home owner's insurance paid $1,800 for the lamp shade, and allowed us to keep the bottom of the lamp for resale
posted on September 1, 2000 05:56:32 PM
Lucy-I'm amazed that the Tiffany shade was only $1,800. Lillian Nassau's Tiffany shades start at $18,000 if I remember correctly. I sat there last week surrounded by what had to be a million dollar inventory of Tiffany.
posted on September 1, 2000 05:58:48 PM
People's greed does get the best of them does it not? So you are going to make a big deal about a doll that probably nobody wanted in the first place. How much did you pay for it 50.00? SO the guy TRIPS over YOUR RUG. There is PROOF he tripped because you called in the STATE POLICE?! You will be lucky if the customer does not sue you for an injury for tripping in your store. If you doll was that valuable why didn't you have it in a case. Sounds like a case of a greedy store owner scammer to me. If it had me that broke an overpriced unprotected doll, I would have immediately slapped a lawsuit on you, the A. I tripped in your store, B. WHich caused me to fall, C. I cut my hand on the doll which led to permanent hand problems. You watch and see if you don't end up with a big bucket of karma dripping on your head.
posted on September 1, 2000 06:01:45 PM
Thank you for your charming and thoughtful post.
I'm not the store owner, don't own the damaged doll and am not the customer who had the incident.
posted on September 1, 2000 06:24:45 PM
Actually this reminds me of a scam that I've heard of in Mexican border towns. Shop owners will take a fragile item, put it in a precarious position, and stick a very high price tag on it.
Touch the item, or anything near it, and it comes crashing down. Then store owner points to a sign on the wall -- conveniently written in English -- that says something like, "You break, you buy."
If you refuse, they will call the police. But they don't like to do so, because it usually means they will have to split the profit with the cop.
posted on September 1, 2000 06:35:14 PM
Someone else noted that antique malls sometimes have things placed in such a way that's it's virtually impossible NOT to back into them or somehow break them. I was in a (VERY crowded) antique mall last summer and suddenly heard the "crash" of pottery breaking. All heads turned to see some poor woman who had brushed up against some pottery and swept it off the shelf. She looked as if she were about to cry and all I could think was, "Thank you, God, that wasn't ME."
Placement can be tricky, I think, in antique stores. On one hand, I want to closely look at, and even touch, items I'm interested in, and hate to have to have a glass case opened by the owner so I can examine an object. It's just me, I know, but "sales pressure" seems higher when I've asked the owner to go to the trouble to open a case--and oftentimes it's only after he or she opens the case that I can see the price tag on an item and immediately know it's completely out of my range. So I want things "accessible," but I don't want to be in the position of accidently breaking anything.
My son refuses to go to antique stores with me, as he's convinced they're sometimes set up as booby-traps to catch the unwary with "breakage fees." I'm not sure I agree with him--but, man, some of them are SO difficult to navigate, what with breakables practically teetering on the edge of shelves, narrow aisles, etc.
[ edited by kinse on Sep 1, 2000 06:37 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2000 06:41:45 PM
Isn't this a shame? At least on eBay one doesn't have to worry about crashing in to something. But for shops that look precarious--back out and look for the next shop. They are there--probably next door or just down the block
posted on September 1, 2000 06:42:05 PM
Maybe I have a warped sense of humor, but sitting here and visualizing that guy stepping on the runner and launching that doll across the store into a nose dive on a hard floor is cracking me up (no pun intended). Does the store owner have video surveilance incorporated into their security system? If so, they could sell the tape to "Americas Funniest Home Videos" or some such show for a lot more than they could ever get for a doll that wasn't valuable enough to protect in the first place. Then again, maybe the shop owner came up with a unique way to get a good price for the junk she can't sell.
For her end of year clearance, she'll probably start a fire.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on September 1, 2000 06:43:07 PM
I don't play a lawyer on televison...but I am one in real life. Short answer:
Criminal liability: none
Civil liability: practically speaking, slim to none.
Longer answer:
The fact that someone had an accident doesn't always lead to liability. Couple that with the practical problems of proving carelessness (negligence) by the person who broke the doll, lack of carelessness (negligence) by the owner, and the cost of proving to a court that these balance in the owner's favor, and ...well, you better talk to your insurer.
posted on September 1, 2000 07:01:05 PM
In MOST states, the shop owner is not going to collect UNLESS they can prove that the damage was "willfully caused". Or negligence, such as when a toddler is turned loose in a china shop.
"Doll was positioned in a small rocking chair. Guy accidentally stepped on one runner of the chair and the doll was propelled into the air and onto the floor, breaking it's face badly."
Pure accident, and the shop owner should not have had such a valuable doll in a vulnerable position.
The Tiffany shade was a very small tulip shade. Goes on a small lamp, bigger than a night light, smaller than a desk lamp. The $1,800 was what the dealer had in the lamp, not the selling price. And the dealer got to keep the the base, put a different Quezal shade on it. You're right though, we've seen and had some beautiful Tiffany lamps.
You all are invited to our shop. We make it a rule that booths are not cluttered, we have wide aisles, good lighting, only employees are allowed to reach into a case for an item. We try to keep close watch on the merchandise and anything in the way is removed. It's a pet peeve of the owners to go into shops that are so dark and cluttered, you can't see anything. (Then again, it's sometimes those little, cluttered, out-of-the-way, old-fashioned stores that have buried treasures!!)
posted on September 1, 2000 09:22:19 PM
My husband uses a wheelchair and he can't even get past the front counter of some antique stores. By law the aisles are supposed to be 30 inches wide, I believe. Not too many businesses comply. I don't know what our liability would be if he broke something under those circumstances. In any case, he's always so disappointed when he can't get back there to see that item (not all shop staff are around to "go fetch"
That's why we do most of our collectible shopping on eBay now. (Just to keep this on topic.)
[ edited by redpenner on Sep 1, 2000 09:23 PM ]
I have no idea how that smiley got there. I didn't use any square brackets!
[ edited by redpenner on Sep 1, 2000 09:24 PM ]
posted on September 1, 2000 09:31:25 PM
I saw this on the People's Court recently. Store owner is probably responsible for loss because there was a reasonable possibility that somebody might step on the rocker of the rocking chair. In other words, it was irresponsible of the seller to leave such an expensive doll so close to the line of customer traffic.
