posted on September 3, 2000 08:16:11 PM
A lot of auctions have a TOS that includes payment due in 10 days of auction close. Now that on the surface isn't unreasonable to ask, but in the grand scheme of how ebay runs it isn't a just demand. Here's why.
First off ebay clearly says that all auctions have a 3 business day contact period. With that said why not amend that term to read payment due 10 days after receipt of our email with our payment information. I say this because; we have sellers who actually think they have the right to leave negatives if they don't get payment 10 days from the auction close. What happens if that seller forgets to send his payment information to the buyer? What happens if email goes looney on either end and the email isn't received?
I have seen several threads where an issue has broken out over payment receipt. I have seen sellers actually demand Federal Express of their $15.00 payment so it arrives on day 10.
I wonder how would sellers feel if the buyers moneyorder payment included a note that said, " I expect package in five business days of postmark of my payment".
Once the buyer sends payment, they can't control the post office!
YES, as sellers we want to receive our payments in a timely fashion, but some folks on this board are really nervous about receiving payment in 10 days. Please don't blame the buyers when it could be the post office at fault. Allow a reasonable amount of time to pass before wondering about the payment. I give them about 3 weeks before I email a second time, politely asking where the payment is.
If the buyer's payment arrives after 10 days, just send the buyers to me. I'll gladly take 'em!
If you're getting worried about not receiving a payment in 10 days, perhaps there are other ways to spend your time, like listing more items, going to more yard sales, etc.
posted on September 3, 2000 08:27:34 PMI say this because; we have sellers who actually think they have the right to leave negatives if they don't get payment 10 days from the auction close.
posted on September 3, 2000 08:32:48 PM
I'm one of those horribly mean sellers who expect payment within 10 days of my EOA notice. My experience is that I have most payments in hand by day 5 and all but a few by day 8. The occasional bidder whom I have to contact again (I email on day 12) invariably claims s/he mailed payment "a week ago," and gets all offended that I dared ask about it. Just as invariably, when that payment arrives it is postmarked not anywhere near "a week ago," but with the same date as my "where's payment" email.
Funny how the PO just hangs onto some envelopes for nearly TWO WEEKS before it gets around to postmarking them...
posted on September 3, 2000 08:34:17 PM
If you have been reading these post for any length of time, you will find MOST sellers give much longer than 10 days. I have seen many post where they have patiently waited 30 - 60 days. I think it is NOT unreasonable to be expected to send prompt payment. I don't feel 10 days is unreasonable. Leaving a neg if my payment was not there without contacting me, would be unreasonable. I don't think it happens all that often.
As a buyer, I think it is reasonable for me to expect my package within 10 days of my payment. If I left a neg on day 11 without notifying the seller, I would be unreasonable.
posted on September 3, 2000 08:51:22 PM
I try and consider these things:
The buyers feedback
their response to my email
their bidding activity while I am waiting for them to contact me..
I always give reasonable time for family emergency, computer crash etc. but once I had someone tell me she was in the hospital for ten days. In checking her auction activity during that time, she bid on over 30 items while she was in the "hospital" and could not get to a computer to email me.
Paypal has simplified all this but as a buyer I find that if I don't send payment right away I forget to send it at all. So better to do it immediately.
This isn't a point of lighening up, it's a point of the way people choose to run their ebay business.
Some people may feel they have the luxury to wait until the cows come home for people to pay. Others feel the need to turn over their inventory & want a firm cut-off date.
I have a firm cut-off date which is stated in my TOS & my EOA. I might choose to be lenient in some situations but I also feel I have a perfect right not to if the date is missed.
posted on September 3, 2000 09:06:08 PM
eventer - There we go with that yard sale mentality of my rights to run my business. Well it is your right so run it that way if you please. I anticipate there will come a time when that mentality won't be the norm.
Besides where in the post do I say you don't have the right. You have a lot rights but with rights come responsibility. I guess what I am saying is be responsible in the exertion of your rights.
[ edited by networker67 on Sep 3, 2000 09:08 PM ]
posted on September 3, 2000 09:16:24 PMnetworker67: What is "yard sale mentality" with respect to wanting/expecting to be paid in a timely manner?
If you go into a store, they expect you to pay before you walk out the door. If you buy something at Amazon or any other online store, you have to pay for it immediately.
posted on September 3, 2000 09:17:05 PM
networker67,
There we go with that yard sale mentality of my rights to run my business
Patronizing posts like this are good for only one thing...a loud guffaw. And a realization that the opinions espoused in that post evidence not the first clue of how to run a real business.
posted on September 3, 2000 09:28:28 PM
I tried a few months ago to take the 10 day thing out of my TOS and I had tons(about 60%), of payments that straggled in 20-30 days after the auction had completed. So..in my experience setting a little 'time stipulation' isn't all that bad. I really can't afford to wait 20-30 days for everyone to pay me or take that chance that I won't have my money within a few days.
I don't send a reminder email until 15-18 days have passed since the auction's end. With the 10 day TOS statement I receive 80% of my payments within the first 7 days so it's not that bad. I haven't had anyone complain about my time frame request.
Most I email, who say they have sent payment, after the friendly reminder, actually mail it on the day of or after they receive my reminder. Chances are that these people always pay their bills late and have no intention of breaking their habit no matter what the TOS states. I just don't want the ones who do pay on time to get lazy by my offering a leniant time frame. It's human nature, I think, to procrastinate.
I've had a few blame it on poor postal service delivery but funny how the postmark tells the 'true story'.
I agree that PayPal has really eliminated most of my delinquent payment cases but it has also increased the number of people who use the excuse "Paypal is broken for me" to put off sending payment. If it's broken for you, grab and envelope and a stamp and send the old check!
posted on September 3, 2000 09:59:04 PM
I also have a 10 day period to receive payment, and that in reality is only a starting point number, as there sould be one. WHY? you might ask. Probably for the same reason that EBAY states that buyer and seller should contact one another within 3 days of EOA so that the transaction is not left in limbo. Just some ballpark rules that are not necessarily written in stone but a format to follow. There is nothing wrong IMHO of expecting payment within a 10 day period of time. Just how hard is it to plug into PayPal, Billpoint, or sit and scribble out a check? Just takes a minute, pop it into your mailbox and when the mailman brings your mail, out it goes. Difficult? Hardly. Some people will say "well I have more important things to do then worry about a Ebay transaction payment." Then they should have been doing those "better things" instead of bidding on my auction.
posted on September 3, 2000 10:01:10 PM
eventer - The statement actual is evidence of vast knowledge of the yard sale mentality seller and the excuses they make to justify their ignorance to running a real business.
And my operations are very well run and very diversified to boot. We have a great thread going so don't ruin it with your attitude and yard sale mentality. I said this would happen.
posted on September 3, 2000 10:23:07 PM
Let me restate my position.
I don't think it's a bad idea to state payment should be received in 10 days, like deee4 said, it gives the customer something to guide them. In my EOA's I actually don't say anything, since I assume the customer knows payment is due, but I can understand why that could be noted.
HOWEVER, if the customer doesn't pay: I would not agree to negging after 10 days. I take a gentler approach: at about 14 to 21 days a polite reminder, after 21 - 28 days a 2nd reminder, and at about 30 - 45 days the NPB, and so on....
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift. That's why it's called the present.
[ edited by ksterni on Sep 3, 2000 10:24 PM ]
posted on September 3, 2000 10:26:29 PMnetworker67
Your comments directed towards eventer are insulting and violate the CGs. As you have received a formal warning in the last 30 days, your posting privileges have been suspended. If you wish to appeal this moderation decision, please email [email protected]
I understand your position but, honestly, how many of your customer's that haven't paid in 10 days, finally pay?
How many pay after the first reminder? How many pay after the second reminder?
My point in inquiring is not to question your timeline but to wonder if you aren't spending additional time chasing down people who aren't going to pay regardless of what you do or how many reminders you send?
Meanwhile, you are holding onto merchandise which could already be either in the hands of the second place bidder or back up for auction on ebay & possibly sold. That means you have your money & are already reinvesting it in your business.
edited to add, I think I misspelled your ID in my first response & apologize. These almost 50 eyes aren't what they used to be.
posted on September 3, 2000 11:04:21 PM
Hey Eventer---RIGHT ON !! I'm with YOU! I state 10 days & I don't pussyfoot around either---when you bid on an item of mine & win---your agreeing to abide by my TERMS clearly stated in ALL MY AUCTIONS. GEE think I could tell my mortgage company I'll make payment soon as I can, or 30 days after its due!! --- HARDLY!! Well I take that back--I can pay late--but at my expense---just cost me MO MONEY!
If for some good reason there is gonna be a delay in pymt., and I've been notified of this by buyer--I'll work with --as long as I know whats up & when pymt will arrive---but problem I see is that perhaps too many sellers allow their winning bidders to pay when the spirit moves them--and because this is allowed by some Sellers, I can only conclude that either Sellers don't care about their monies due or they perhaps are just lacking in the ability to be forthright & upfront w/o being confrontational.
By the way Networker--I've no clues to your problems with Ebay--if any?? However, after reading some of your posts this OL' saying comes to my mind "IF YOUR NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION---YOUR PART OF THE PROBLEM" Nothing wrong with having and expressing an opinion --but don't expect me to follow your path...cuz>> "MY WAY" of doing it works very well for me & my buyers.
posted on September 3, 2000 11:17:17 PM
I am a meanie. I have a downright cruel 7 day deadline. Why? Because most people get their payments to me within a week or less. I know perfectly well that I will get checks or money orders between 10-14 days after the auction and that's fine.
I run an auction business, not a loan company. I don't want to finance slow payers on the backs of the prompt ones.
posted on September 3, 2000 11:17:44 PM
getkicksonrte66,
but problem I see is that perhaps too many sellers allow their winning bidders to pay when the spirit moves them--and because this is allowed by some Sellers, I can only conclude that either Sellers don't care about their monies due or they perhaps are just lacking in the ability to be forthright & upfront w/o being confrontational
I would have to disagree with you on this. I don't necessarily think it means the seller doesn't care about their monies or is nonconfrontational...it's the way they choose to do business & it probably works for them.
My point was there isn't the perfect TOS which meets everyone's needs or situation.
Personally I've found in the categories I sell in that if the customer hasn't responded or paid in 14 days, in 99% of the cases, they aren't going to, no matter how long I give them. So my TOS reflect a 14 day payment requirement.
Like you, if a customer advises me of a problem, I'll be glad to wait & work with them until it's obvious that was just another excuse.
Having a time line works for me but it may not work for everyone. If you need one, use one. If you don't need one, don't use one. To me it's just that simple.
posted on September 3, 2000 11:44:51 PM
Eventer maybe I should have separated my post up into parts---the first part was in agreement with you---the 2nd half was just my personal opinion. But Again, I agree with you that maybe Sellers do what they do because their comfortable that way etc., and thats fine too-I suppose whatever makes their boat float- Also I agree that if pymt is not received within X amount of days then winner more likely then not had no intentions of honoring their winning bid anyway.
Something I always include in my e-mail notification to winning bidder is a request for them to reply to my e-mail with their name and shipping address to confirm receipt of my notification of their win., & 99.9% I get reply w/ name & address within 2 days of the time I originally send notice & if I do not get a reply back from winner within 3 days from time sent---this just throws up a BIG RED FLAG for me, I then just resend original e-mail again but add 2nd Notice to the subject line---if I then don't get a reply back on 2nd Notice then on the 4th day after auction close date I again forward them the same original e-mail---but this time I put FINAL NOTICE on subject line with a please respond within 24 hours in the body of letter. I have only had to do this a few times, and the few that winning bidders never did respond were exactly the ones that never intended to follow through in the first place, and in my situations it always seemed only to occur with new ebayers w/little or no feedback @ all, and fortunately for me always little dollar amount sales.
posted on September 4, 2000 02:19:25 AM
We allow 10 business days for payment, no different than 90% of phone companies etc. and thats not a garage sale mentality. We attend every auction site worth a hoot from Onsale to dealdeal.com, Auction Sales, First Auction, uBid and yes eBay as well.
90% of customers who do not have payment tendered within 10 business days are either overseas (which we obviously understand) or they are simply put procrastinators. We even have em' place another bid thinking now they are extended 10 more days. In REALITY we will wait up to 30 days for payments before we turn em' over for non-payment and/or leave feedback. We issue reminder notices once a week to all unpaid buyers through a simple bulk mailed I coded up. It eats a spreadsheet and works between a date range. Our eBay payout rate is steady at 95% with over 20,000 completed transactions in our 3 years of eBay.
When non-payments do occur we do take that to another level as well. Not only will we do the non-paying bidder deal we will email the ISP as well directing them right to the individuals activities. 95% of ISP's will either issue a warning to them or terminate their access as actively defrauding a business is a breach of their terms of service and they dont refund a dime to the person. So... the $30 they skip out on costs them perhaps $100-$200 in loss of ISP fee's.
Most ISP's will react to it as the notification we issue them clearly states whats occurred and that we understand its not the ISP's fault and legally they cannot be held culpable but at the sametime if they allow it to continue then they are no longer a venue as they have been told so they either react or not. If not then they are encouraging the activity and we can file for an injunction.
The poster who stated laxing their terms of sale caused more bidder to pay late, yield excuses etc. is absolutely right. When your all salty and comfy toasty in your win notifications or reminders you will get taken advantage of. If your direct, to the point and leave no grey areas they understand and live up to their actions/obligations. Sure, there are hosers out there and its why we stake most business at B2C commerce sites. If eBay disappeared tomorrow 99% of sellers that frequent this place would be all done, paypal would be all done. Smart sellers become businesses and never put all their eggs in one basket, they have merchant accounts whether or not they use PP.
Those that are not are in for surprises coming anyway such as auctioneer licensing. Expect it, its coming. States are funneling gobs of money and resources down to local authorities so they can pursue sellers who dont operate within legal constraints.
Last week we had a senior postal officer buy from us who we entered into quite a bit of dialog with. Apparently they will be working with authorities in counting parcels shipped and logging them so authorities have a good idea right where to look.
If the republicans enter into the white house there are going to be ALOT of republican sellers that are going to go ballistic as they are all for the kill-off anything but huge online businesses, they even want licensing to set up a website no matter what the content. But I am getting off topic.
10 business days is perfectly reasonable for any North American based transaction. If we allow say 30 days (formally) for payment then the consumer ought not be too unhappy if we take 30 days to ship Right? Wrong. Or sellers ought be content that if they use PayPal that they can wait 30 days to transfer your money right? Wrong.
Everyone likes to do whats best for them. The key is to find a happy medium and that doesnt mean you MUST enforce it. Sure, ISP's go down, email is lost etc. Its why we issue 4 reminder notices 1 each week, after that we will report it as a NPB, leave feedback and report them to the ISP. If we have email from them, we'll forward that to the ISP as well.
Obviously it works as eBay claims avg. payout is 68% for the site, ours is 95%.
Signed: WhyNot!
posted on September 4, 2000 04:00:35 AM
Maybe you folks who think 10 or less days and then goodbye should realize this:
The customer is your lifeline. Either live it or lump it.
Your actions to the buyer dictate whether or not they will come back, and whether they will come back to eBay.
I know some bidders will take personal offense if your question them or leave a neg. It's like a slap in the face to some.
Also, most of your payments may be at the mercy of the USPS. Stuff happens. Who's to say some Postal worker drops that payment behind a machine and it takes 10 days to find it? Or the machine rips the envelope apart and the payment? Howabout the Dead Letter Office, ever heard of that place??
FedEx and UPS are far worse in some cases. Paperwork to mail a UPS item is nuts, and not too many "casual" bidders can mail something thru FedEx, let alone know how.
I actually have put the seller's mouth where their money is. I asked for my package in 3 days, no more, yes to less.
Truth be told, not many can do it.
So, I say, give some time.
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on September 4, 2000 05:55:26 AM
WAY TO GO , MichelleG,
That network 67 never has anything really constructive to add, always negative no matter what the subject. His comments are generally always directed toward a poster, and think the time had came for a well deserved suspension . Thanks this one, definately needed it!
ASK ! Better safe, than sorry!
posted on September 4, 2000 06:43:00 AM
Thank you, Diana!!! I am SO happy to see that the positive nature of these forums is important to AW and that the guidelines are enforced.
I also have a stated 10 day limit for receipt of payment, and I allow a fair amount of "wiggle" room. The point in stating it is that, as others have commented, if you don't set a deadline, some people just can't seem to make time to get payment in the mail. I firmly believe that most Ebayers, buyers and sellers alike, are GREAT people, and will do the right thing every time, but we do have to conduct business with the minority in mind in order to protect ourselves on either side of the transaction.
posted on September 4, 2000 06:52:06 AM
I feel that this thread and many others by this individual were started only intending to cause discord among us for his amusement.
He knows the words to say to get the anger going.
Thankfully we have been granted a 30 day reprive by AW.
In my opinion we should let this thread scroll off and be done with it. And get back to the business of sharing ideas to make us better business people.
posted on September 4, 2000 07:12:21 AM
networker67 may have been too often impolite but I feel his comments are usually very accurate, and his suspension is a loss of a voice of reason.
The most recent time that I bid with a seller whose TOS required that a mailed payment arrive within 10 days, the payment took 9 days in the USPS.
I've received payments which took over 4 weeks in the post office.
Buyers and sellers have wide latitude on what they may choose to leave negative feedback for, but to enforce a ten day payment clause is wrong.
posted on September 4, 2000 11:07:17 AMBuyers and sellers have wide latitude on what they may choose to leave negative feedback for
Yes they do.
In fact, any buyer or seller who is displeased with the transaction has not only the right but the responsibility to leave negative feedback.
Not getting paid in 10 days may well cause displeasure to seller.
Being on the receiving end of a 10 day demand may well cause displeasure to buyer.
The "repsonsibility" part applies to the negative: is it accurate? Does it explain the displeasure regarding this transaction? Does it avoid vulgarity? If so, then it is appropriate by eBay rules.
Now all that said, there's this reason why sellers should usually subjugate their displeasure. The reason is money.
posted on September 4, 2000 06:52:45 PM
Actually on the one hand eBay says 'seller and buyer SHOULD (key word here) not that they have to contact each other within 3 days of auction closing; on the other hand somewhere else they state that we should give them another 7 days (I think it's in their final fee request for credit but can't remember) and there again it says SHOULD not that you must. Also most times we don't get eBay's END OF AUCTION notices until 48-72 hours have passed so how can we expect our buyers to pay us within 7-10 short days. I've seen sellers state they expect the money within 3 days of closing and I've seen sellers state they will not contact the winning bidder and if you don't contact them they will give you a negative. I usually bid on their auctions and than dare them to go thru with it and I post the link to eBays rules. LOL No they have never left me a negative for not getting it there on time.
I'm very lienent with my buyers I give them up to 3 weeks to send funds and that up to my having sent them at least 3 notices one a week and than I file if I have to; as the saying goes '#*!@ happens' in folks lives and they are not on eBay 24 hours a day.
I had a winning bidder today sent me a nasty email demanding I respond to them because the auction ended Saturday and claimed they sent me 5 emails. I wrote her back and told her I don't resond to email from bidders until I get my EOA's from eBay and quoted her eBays rules that I had at least 3 business work days to contact my winning bidders and in light of the fact that eBay has not sent me my EOA's yet she'd have to wait and especially since I close over 100 auctions a week she'd just have to wait her turn.
Isn't it wonderful that we live in a society where we can agree to disagree.
