posted on September 4, 2000 08:28:53 AM new
I recall about a year or so ago about a post regarding eBay requesting users SSN. I didn't pay much attention to it figuring it was bridge to cross when eBay got around to ask for mine. And I have nothing to hide. (I pay my taxes)
Today while "investigating" a situation with a buyer I came across Safeharbor's verificaton process. I filed for it and one of the questions was my SSN.
I was just curious if this was what was meant by the SSN issue about a year or so ago? I know...as if I expect anyone to pull a rabbit out the air....
Also even though I will follow through on the next steps of verificaton (faxing id and proof of residency), just to let others know if they don't know that they do a credit check on the eBay user.
How about some diverse opipions on verifying with eBay?
posted on September 4, 2000 11:52:03 AM new
I'd prefer one's feedback as verification. I don't care about someone's blood type as much as their ability to reliably complete a transaction.
Verification is largely a way for someone to make money on people's paranoia.
posted on September 4, 2000 06:24:44 PM new
I just signed up with a new account on eBay and they never asked me for my SSN. They didn't even ask me for a credit card number so don't know why they would ask you for a SSN. Send me email and give me the details of exactly what you did. My email address is [email protected] This has got me curious now. The only reason I can see them asking is if the government or IRS wants it or eBay may need it because of the fees they charge us but than again they shouldn't if anything we should need their business license#, etc to file with our taxes since their fees are a business expense to us as sellers.
posted on September 4, 2000 06:33:49 PM new"I'd prefer one's feedback as verification"
I suggested to eBay a long time ago they shouldn't allow anyone to buy or sell until they had a feedback of at least 20 or higher. They said they'd take it under advisement.
posted on September 5, 2000 12:55:37 PM new
Now I'm not a seller, but let me ask, do sellers always have to submit an SSN to sell, in general (not specifically eBay)? I don't know the law well enough.
However, if the law does not demand it, at least for on-eBay-sized selling, I would definitely try not to give my SSN to eBay. Yes, some of you probably realize I hesitate giving out other kinds of information too, but most of that is because of the presence and reach of annoying parasites known as direct marketers (I hate direct marketing the way it's currently shoved at people); the SSN is a more fundamental issue.
As a buyer, forget it all together. Most companies people do business with should not be asking for their customers' SSNs, IMO, even if it would help with verification or whatever, and it is often recommended that you not give SSN out except where it is required by law.
Some colleges base student ID numbers on SSN, but at least one system (New York, IIRC) has stopped basing ID on SSN because of privacy concerns.
It is simply too important and sensitive a number to bandy about in unnecessary ways.
You'll definitely need to give an SSN for certain things, like filling out your income tax, accepting a job, (and maybe a certain level of selling, I don't know) but from what I understand, most other companies have no other need for SSN, even if they ask for it.
If eBay asks for it, I would try to find out whether they really need it by law, or are demanding information you'd be best keeping to yourself.
Identity theft is becoming a major problem that has ruined tens of thousands of people financially, and having nothing to hide has nothing to do with it, IMO. While the thieves like to get as much on you as they can, sometimes picking your garbage for unshredded account numbers, for example, the single best bit of information they can get on you is your SSN, from what I understand. Limiting that number's exposure, even in legitimate business settings, is probably a good thing.
There are thieves in the "information age," and disclosing your SSN as few times as possible is kin to moving your wallet up to your front pocket in crowded situations, to thwart pickpockets who might otherwise mug you without your even noticing it right away.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
[ Edited for grammar and clarity. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 5, 2000 12:57 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 01:08:37 PM new
More generally, on ID verification on eBay, by any means, is that it would also be a two-edged sword.
It would likely make fraudulent sellers and buyers think twice, knowing they are not quite so "anonymous" (relatively speaking, of course), though eBay's had a mixed reputation on going after troublemakers.
With some sort of verification, it wouldn't be quite so easy for some of the more "casual" frauds to make up new ideas, but won't stop those who are willing to forge new postal addresses, or securing fraudulent credit cards to use for verification, or those sorts of things. The "casual" frauds, almost by definition, won't want to go so far, and will either quit the fraud or find themselves found out more quickly; but the more "serious" frauds, again almost by definitely, will find ways.
On the other edge of the metaphorical sword, some buyers, including myself, would likely balk at providing additional information that might end up poorly secured or end up sold to direct marketers for additional profit (no, not CC#'s, but some of the other information can be sold). Since I'm already losing interest in eBay for other reasons, this is personally becoming a moot debate as far as eBay is concerned (but potentially not for other sites, present or future); however, others get tired of the increased nosiness and skip bidding.
Which would have the greater effect, setting up a "better" ID process and cutting down on some of the fraud, or finding that the ID process itself chases some legitimate buyers away? Personally, I have no idea, but it is something to consider, I suppose.
Edited to add... yes, there have been at least a couple prior threads on IDing ideas, here in AW, but I don't have them bookmarked. Anyone?
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 5, 2000 01:11 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 01:29:14 PM new
I did the verification thing last week, and I agree with mballai that is generally a way to make money from people's paranoia. But what's wrong with that?
If someone would rather buy from me than from someone else just because I'm verified, then it's just makes good business sense for me to verify. It only cost $5. I have no dobut that the extra bid will cover the costs within a month. Heck, they may have already.
posted on September 5, 2000 01:32:10 PM new
By the way, by going through the verification process, you are not giving anybody any information that they don't already have.
The whole process is handled by Equifax, one of the big 3 credit reporting agencies. To verify, you simply answer questions about information that is already in your credit file.
posted on September 5, 2000 01:42:06 PM new
I wonder when everyone will have to have a drivers license to travel around the web? The abuses that some will commit because of their anonymity gets to everyone at times doesn't it?
I don't mind verifing myself via a credit card, physical address, SSN, or whatever. I'm too old and too lazy to fight windmills.
posted on September 5, 2000 01:49:31 PM new
i just did it, took all of 3 minutes to become verified, and I already have that little check mark in the feedback profile. I do not know what it could hurt to have this, will give some bidders peace of mind. Heather
[ edited by hcross on Sep 5, 2000 01:57 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 05:52:02 PM new
well i dont really see the point, you can declair false residence easily, and id's can be bought, i will not give out my ssn for any reason on the web, and it better be a good one for ebay.... my feedback is over 100 and climbing, my bidders like this and continue to purchase from me.
every 20 seconds in america a woman is giving birth:SHE MUST BE FOUND AND STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.................................................................
posted on September 5, 2000 05:52:18 PM new
well i dont really see the point, you can declair false residence easily, and id's can be bought, i will not give out my ssn for any reason on the web, and it better be a good one for ebay.... my feedback is over 100 and climbing, my bidders like this and continue to purchase from me.
every 20 seconds in america a woman is giving birth:SHE MUST BE FOUND AND STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.................................................................
posted on September 5, 2000 06:05:56 PM new
This specific case probably won't hurt anything on its own, especially if it is dealing with someone that already has the information (assuming you fill in the information with them and not someone else's servers), but OTOH, one of the three credit agencies was already ruled against in regard to parts of its information handling practices. I'd have to find the relevant news reports for specifics, though.
Yes, some people use the relative anonymity of the Internet to act in totally abusive ways, and I've had to deal with that too, as the moderator of a mailing list and poster and lurker in many more fora.
The conversation about relative anonymity and the pros and cons of that is a far larger issue, most of which doesn't apply to the specific concerns of the SSN. I'd actually feel more comfortable giving out my credit card number than my SSN any day.
Verification can be a positive thing, but it can, in some people's eyes (not everyone's) depend on how much and what is asked for, and how that information is subsequently used.
Companies that get too much information on a person can be just as abusive, in different ways of course, as people who maniacally revel in the Internet's "anonymity."
If the whole process in this case is truly kosher, that it is all through a company that already has this information, that the transmission is secure, and that the information is not further distributed or preferably deleted after approval/rejection, then the concerns are irrelevant in this case.
Believe me, I understand if that is all too much to worry about, as I don't care for needless complexity either, but "needless" can sometimes be in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.
posted on September 5, 2000 06:39:38 PM new
I looked and found this AW thread, which I missed while still lurking. I don't know what I think of all the opinions yet, and will have to digest it, but it might be the thread bobbysoxer refered to.
[ Edited to correct UBB and add: oops, forgot to add the link; check my note a couple down. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 5, 2000 09:49 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 07:45:56 PM new
I have been buying and selling for several years now on eBay with a modest feedback with no negatives!
The way I look at the eBay ID verification is the same way I viewed PayPal's verification. My competitors are getting verified so therefore I am too. Know what I mean Vern?
In my opinion yes I am proud of my eBay feedback and use it to encourage peeps to buy from my websites and my auctions. However, it helps as well to be verified by PayPal (X.com-what's that? LOL) and eBay.
eBay also asks for drivers license info so they compare addresses and for other reasons such as identification (photo).
I don't know if the post I am remembering was with a thread subject of id verification or if it was mentioned outside the subject matter. Y'all know how diverse -related- issues are discussed under a subject.
In closing verification from eBay and x.com are great selling tools when one is using them on other sites other than eBay.
As for eBay asking registers for SSN, this is not done when you register it is asked when a seller wants to be verified.
Perdiction: There will be a time when buyers will need to be verified too!
P.S. Thanks everyone for quite an interesting thread participation!
posted on September 5, 2000 09:32:08 PM new
SSNs are definitely the key to identity theft. I know someone whom it happened to, and while it didn't cost her anything in money, it was awful in terms of time to get things straightened out. Many crooks who do it know how much to charge or how far they can go before law enforcement or card issuers will bother to pursue. Meanwhile the victim's credit rating is in shambles and the victim has to try to repair things with precious little help.
Also, if the police or IRS or what-not want to get your SSN and have force of a court order (not hard to obtain), they can get it through plenty of other ways. I for one am much more worried about abuses in unintended uses of information from the private sector than from the government (which isn't nearly as "efficient" at those things).
A couple interesting quotes by one of the posters in that thread:
"Did you know that it is actually illegal for any agency other that Social security, your employer and social benefits office to require you to provide your SS#"
"Also it is illegal for the private sector to even request your SS# much less require it and discriminate against you. They can only require it for tax reporting purpose from wages, nothing else."
I don't know the law to verify these, but have heard these sort of statements any number of times.
[ Edited to add quotes because I couldn't cut and paste them and the link at the same time. ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 5, 2000 09:48 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 09:58:21 PM new
I worked at a place that I had access to all of the laborer's info of SSNs. The place was very lax on the personnel files (they weren't locked etc) and when I was talking with one of the workers who had been employeed there for many years apparently a gal did "lift" SSNs but she was caught.
I grew up that you didn't share your SSN with nobody but now it is everywhere. The insurance id are SSNs, military serial numbers were replaced by the SSNs and many others places.
It looks like there are a few more. To find them, click "site search" at the bottom right corner of this page, type "id verification" or "id verify", click on the checkbox just below it to search in the Message Center too, and click on the search.
Probably can try strings like "id ssn", "equifax", and similar strings to maybe catch a few more. I don't have time at the moment to read all this, but there definitely seems to be a mixed or perhaps predominantly negative reaction, including more statements that using SSN for this purpose is a bad idea, for various reasons (security, privacy, and turning off bidders because of that).
[ Edited to add "at this moment." ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 5, 2000 10:08 PM ]
posted on September 5, 2000 10:33:56 PM newbobbysoxer: At this point, I couldn't answer your question on the landlord, because the last time I signed up at a new apartment complex was nine years ago, and the SSN question may not have registered in my memory. I mean knew to be careful with it even then, but may have assumed that renting was a "major" thing that required this bit of information. Either that, or the this landlord didn't ask (they asked for other information, but I just don't remember what it all is any more).
When my driver's license came up for renewal, the form asked for me to provide my SSN, but had an easily visible statement leading to a longer one to the effect that state or federal law (don't remember which, and I don't have the form in hand anymore) required it for licensing, and I think it cited a statute or anything. I had no interest in further checking this case, deciding this was likely one of those required cases.
However, I was struck by how this form made a point of stating the legal basis of asking for the SSN.
Does the eBay/Equifax verification process make a point of citing a statuatory basis for asking, or a law that allows them to ask? Perhaps the law is that it should not be required, but can be volunteered by a citizen.
Again, I don't know what the specific laws, allowances, loopholes, allowances, and grey areas all specifically are, but the driver's license example only bolsters another suggestion I would make: question, at least in your own mind if not aloud, why someone is asking for your SSN. I realize you may not feel comfortable shaking up the renting process, and I suspect it might actually be required for mortgage processing.
It's a murky area filled with the troublesome fact that identity thieves go after this number as the best way of unlocking various aspects of your life to them.
It's the old eggs in a basket phenomenon updated for the "Information Age": The more that companies are allowed to entangle a single fundamental number with various aspects of your life, especially your credit, with little or no protection or corrective ability, the more exposed you are if that number is discovered by a thief.
As ploughman pointed out, correction is often extremely difficult, and I've heard it's nightmarish, usually taken months and rarely repairing all the damage.
Protection is something we're able to do somewhat on our own, by limiting and questioning the uses of the SSN.
I hadn't really realized that eBay was already doing verification (even if only on a voluntary basis at this time), and that it's through Equifax, so I haven't really found out many details on this, so please forgive the rather more vague and speculative nature of my posts in this thread.
One general thing is still clear: be careful with your SSN. I will not give it to eBay, and would rather deregister if they forced the issue by making it mandatory for all sellers and buyers. At this point, I wouldn't miss the new eBay all the much, only the old one that I already miss.
[ "statue" -> "statute" -- I think lost out of finalist in a grade school spelling bee because of this one, but this is the first time I think I got this wrong since then! ]
[ edited by dc9a320 on Sep 5, 2000 10:38 PM ]
posted on September 6, 2000 06:22:39 PM new
dc9a320 Again thank you!
I forgot to mention this process costs $3 - $4 when it is done.
I think the reason I didn't get verified before was because I was relying on my feedback and what my valued customers thought when they had the items in their hands, wondered why do I need to be "verified."
Well, now that I am expanding into two websites to sell stuff I want to say I am verified through eBay and PayPal...oops I mean x.com-who's that? In my opinion, it helps to give me more credentials. To give the buyers confidence they won't get ripped off.
