posted on September 7, 2000 10:58:35 AM
Time for a new thread as the other 2 are getting so full of B.S. I was needing a pair of boots to wade through it all.
I can't for the life of me understand how "some" sellers can't accept responsibility fot their own actions?
Any seller that chooses to use UPS as a shipping service best clue into some of the facts before shooting their mouths off about something they obviously know nothing about.
If you have a hard time understanding any of this please let me know, I'll be more than happy to spell it out in plain English for you.
With regards to Equestrian's thread.
For a starter - UPS does the Customs Clearance for the shipper. Get it?
If the item was damaged at the Border, as the seller has stated, then it was a UPS agent that damaged the items. Now the seller says they can't claim for insurance? B.S.
Anyone that sells online & use UPS could have found this info in less than 60 seconds.
UPS will prepay duties and taxes on behalf of the payer. For importation into the U.S., a fee, set forth in the UPS rates applicable
to the shipment in effect at the time of shipping, will be assessed and
billed to the importer. A fee may also apply for shipments to other countries.
In the event a Shipper's Export Declaration (S.E.D.) is required and is not included with the export documents provided by the shipper,
UPS will prepare an S.E.D., using the information on the UPS Waybill, on behalf of the shipper to facilitate export. A processing fee, set forth in the UPS rates applicable to the shipment in effect at
the time of shipping, will be assessed and billed to the shipper.
UPS may prepare a Certificate of Origin for goods manufactured and originating within the U.S. on behalf of the shipper when one is
required but not included with the export documents provided by the shipper. A processing fee, set forth in the UPS rates applicable to the shipment in effect at the time of shipping, will be assessed and
billed to the shipper.
Unless otherwise restricted for the destination country, the shipper
may elect to pay duty and tax, or duty only, by showing such instructions on the export documentation and on the UPS Waybill.
These options are available only to shippers with a UPS account.
An additional charge, set forth in the UPS rates applicable to the shipment in effect at the time of shipping, will be assessed. These services are not available if any or all the shipping charges are billed
to the consignee or if a consignee chooses a broker other than UPS.
posted on September 7, 2000 11:27:20 AM
This is all well and good except for one thing. The seller in question doesn't ship outside the US as a policy. Therefore, it is not his responsiblilty to jump through hoops to learn all this stuff when he is simply doing the bidder a favor by allowing him to bid on the auction. If a seller's TOS states US bidders only, then ANY exception when asked to do so is a FAVOR. Plain and simple.
Since the bidder is the one asking for an exception to the TOS, it is the bidder's responsibility to do any hoop jumping to make sure the seller knows what the best options are for shipping. This seller probably ships by UPS all the time. Not knowing about the UPS "graft", why shouldn't the seller ship by UPS in this case?
If the bidder had known about the add-on charge, he should have informed the seller. If the bidder didn't know about the charge either, how can he possibly hold it against the seller for not knowing about it?
Problems like this are why so many sellers refuse to ship internationally in the first place. People need to take responsibility for their own actions (or lack thereof) and quit trying to pass the buck.
It is unfortunate what happened to the bidder in question. But it isn't the seller's fault. The seller fulfilled his end of the deal. Time to trade positive feedbacks and move on.
The seller in question doesn't ship outside the US as a policy.
There you go with your psychic abilities again. How do you know that this wasn't simply 1 out of 10 auctions they listed this week/month/whatever where they decided not to ship outside of the U.S.?
I see this all the time, some items the seller wil ship outside of the US, other items they won't.
Since the bidder is the one asking for an exception to the TOS, it is the bidder's responsibility to do any hoop jumping to make sure the seller knows what the best options are for shipping
Hoop jumping???? The seller could have gleaned that info in less than a minute via the USA UPS website, I did. They could have also used the 1-800 # & asked. Duh.
You call that hoop jumping?
I call that customer service.
If the bidder had known about the add-on charge, he should have informed the seller. If the bidder didn't know about the charge either, how can he possibly hold it against the seller for not knowing about it?
Asked & answered.
The bidder did not know about the extra shipping cost that was going to be charged them by UPS when it arrived in Canada.
Ok, so the seller didn't know either. Honest mistake on both sides of the border.
The point is that at this stage of the game the seller has the goods and the customers $$$.
UPS insures their parcels for $100 & the seller is the only at this point who can collect that $$$. It also seems that he/she is refusing to do do.
And for this kind of piss poor service you think the seller deserves a positive feedback?
Thank god Networker can't be here to read some of this dribble. I'm beginning to see his side of some issues.
Some sellers would be better off setting up Lemonade stands!
While I don't always agree with your posts, I usually read them with a great deal of interest because they are well thought out.
However, this time I found the wording of your post to be sarcastic & condescending. Couldn't the same message have been presented in a more positive method?
Instead of applauding those who are atleast "trying" to step forward into the international marketplace, we are labled "clueless" for not immediately knowing all there is to know about every shipping method.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:09:17 PM
"Some sellers would be better off setting up Lemonade stands! "
At least then they would not have to worry about international sales (until they grow up and become Colonel Saunders or Ronald McDonald, that is! Speaking of that, I for one, am damn glad that Ronald got over his "USA only" kick!)
Does anyone remember when the customer (the buyer) used to be right all the time? Seems to me, in those good old days, it was the salespeople who did all the hoop jumping. I will not stand in line for a beer, nor will I jump through any hoops to give someone else my money And, I certainly will not give it to someone and get absolutely nothing in return (hear that you UPS varmits, you??).
This is all moot anyway, 'cause the issue we are all cleverly, and secretly referring to in this thread doesn't have a good guy and a bad guy. Neither one of the parties, at least at this point, needs to worry that they did something wrong.
In the words on my old hockey coach ... "#*!@ happens"
Thank you Gentlemen, and good night.
Gentlemen, thank you and good night.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:13:06 PM
redeer:
There you go with your psychic abilities again. How do you know that this wasn't simply 1 out of 10 auctions they listed this week/month/whatever where they decided not to ship outside of the U.S.? I see this all the time, some items the seller wil ship outside of the US, other items they won't..
We're not talking about "some items". We're talking about this item and this auction. There is nothing psychic about being able to read in the buyer's initial post about inquiring of the seller if he would be willing to ship to Canada. There is no ambiguity here.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:15:22 PMIf a seller's TOS states US bidders only, then ANY exception when asked to do so is a FAVOR. Plain and simple.
It is not a favor. A favor is one sided with the recipient getting the benefit of the favor. For example, if my neighbor is going to the store and I ask him to get me a loaf of bread, he's doing me a favor. I get the benefit of avoiding a trip to the store and my neighbor gets no benefit. On the other hand, if I have to go to the Post Office for stamps and to the store for bread and my neighbor also needs stamps and food, we make a deal. I go to the PO to get stamps for the both of us and he goes to the store to get food for both of us. We both benefit by avoiding a trip. That's a deal.
Likewise, the transaction in question is a deal, not a favor. The seller benefits by accepting a Canadian bid and, thus, gets more money and the buyer benefits by getting merchandise that he wouldn't have been able to get if the seller had refused a Canadian bid. They both benefitted.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:18:49 PM
redeer:
If the bidder had known about the add-on charge, he should have informed the seller. If the bidder didn't know about the charge either, how can he possibly hold it against the seller for not knowing about it?
Asked & answered.
No it wasn't.
The point is that at this stage of the game the seller has the goods and the customers $$$.
Incorrect. At this point the seller has the buyer's money and a worthless piece of junk because the buyer refused delivery and it was damaged during the return trip. The seller's obligation to buyer ended when the buyer refused delivery.
At this point, the buyer should post positive feedback for the seller and hope that the seller is understanding and reciprocates. Not likely, but worth a shot.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:26:17 PMIt is not a favor. A favor is one sided with the recipient getting the benefit of the favor. For example, if my neighbor is going to the store and I ask him to get me a loaf of bread, he's doing me a favor. I get the benefit of avoiding a trip to the store and my neighbor gets no benefit. On the other hand, if I have to go to the Post Office for stamps and to the store for bread and my neighbor also needs stamps and food, we make a deal. I go to the PO to get stamps for the both of us and he goes to the store to get food for both of us. We both benefit by avoiding a trip. That's a deal.
This is a favor. A favor is doing something, when asked, that you would not do under normal circumstances. The seller could have simply refuse the transaction. He didn't ask for it to begin with. The fact that the seller may or may not benefit from the transaction was irrelevant. If a close friend asks to borrow $100 and you agree to loan it, you are getting benefit from the transaction in the form of good will (hopefully) from your friend. Both parties benefit, just in different ways. But it's still a favor.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:40:14 PM
Eventer ..... The *only* one I labeled as clueless, was the seller who obviously didn't do their homework before entering into an agreement with the buyer. [re: equestrian's thread] I have no problem with US based sellers that refuse to ship Internationally & have stated so at least 100 times on the various boards.
Their business, their decision.
But, if a seller is going to enter into the arena of Internationally selling/shipping they should at least be aware of the complications/costs/etc with the service they are using to ship.
Both those other threads got twisted into some sort of Canadian Tax issue which this topic has squat to do about.
Abingdon
I'm done wasting my time with your posts.
They make no sense whatsoever.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:42:59 PM
Hey, I thought the only thing required of a seller for international sales was spend - what was it estimated at, "ten seconds?" to fill out a Customs form - and those few of us brazen enough to say international sales weren't worth the trouble were vigorously reamed from several different angles for our "laziness" and apparent xenophobia.
Seems now as if there's juuuuuust a tad more than that 10-second Customs form involved, eh?
No thanks.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 7, 2000 12:44 PM ]
Many of us are trying to take those first "baby steps" to selling internationally.
Granted, it would be lovely to have all the time in the world to learn the ins & outs of every possible scenario & cost which could occur BEFORE we move into those markets, but it's just not always feasible..or we'd never step forward to try.
Mistakes are going to be made. Give the seller SOME credit for trying. After this situation, he/she may never try again...which I personally think is a loss to the global marketplace (unless they were planning to remain permanently clueless, then I'd have to agree with RB's assessment, that some people couldn't run a lemonade stand).
This whole situation is just another weapon in the "don't sell international" crowds arsenal of reasons.
If someone is hammered into the ground for "trying", they are most likely not going to be too willing to try again..this time, hopefully the RIGHT way.
posted on September 7, 2000 12:49:08 PM
When the buyer and the seller discussed shipping, no mention was made on how to ship? How were the shipping costs computed?
The seller shipped the item UPS, the buyer said they had no idea it was arriving UPS until it showed up.
So this means the seller took it upon themselves to ship UPS.
However, the buyer took it upon themselves to refuse delivery.
To me this is a grey area, with no one person being completely right or wrong, I feel perhaps the seller should send 50% of the money back to the buyer.
Buyer and seller should both have communticated a lot better on this deal.
Buyer paid, seller shipped, buyer refused.
Who didn't uphold their part of the transaction?
posted on September 7, 2000 12:59:22 PM
abingdoncomputers, we'll have to agree to disagree on whether it was a favor or a deal. However, the seller agreed to accept a Canadian bid and decided on the shipping method, so it's his/her responsibility to be aware of the shipping costs including the brokerage fee.
posted on September 7, 2000 01:03:25 PM
Buyer knew this was an international shipment and should have made a better attempt to know how it was going to be shipped.
As I said, I feel neither one is absolutely wrong or right.
Yes, if I had wanted the item that much I would have paid the extra and chalked it up to experience.
posted on September 7, 2000 01:11:05 PM
It wasn't there, it was in one of networkers.
For the 'baby steppers' (Eventer ), it's really very simple. UPS, regardless their pretentions, is NOT a viable international shipper.
Have an international customer, don't worry about UPS rates, just go to the USPS calculator and present the customer with his/her choices with a quick cut and paste. It's exactly the same as domestic USPS shipping calculations.
However, for those of you who can't manage even that, cancel any international bid prior to auction end. Those bidders would most likely not welcome the situation as it inevitably would unfold. They find all dealings with barbarians distasteful. You can ALMOST always tell by email extensions (except Neil/Bud with home.com).
I did give them some credit for trying, just not on this thread. Now they need to try more.
Anyone can handle the easy transactions, it's the difficult ones that separate the amateurs from the pros. All they've succeeded in doing so far is leaving a customer very unhappy about their dealings. For a measely $30 this seller could have made the buyer happy & possibly had a glowing feedback added to their list, and perhaps even a repeat customer? I feel sorry for those sellers that fail to see the logic in this.
I honestly could careless if every U.S. based seller decide to only ship to the U.S., more
moola for me. At the same time, I've always been willing to offer some tips to anyone that asks.
This thread was started for educational purposes only.
posted on September 7, 2000 01:22:17 PMUPS, regardless their pretentions, is NOT a viable international shipper.
AMEN, brother! And it's not that great a viable shipper for the domestic shipper either!
Now they need to try more
I totally agree. For those of us who are "toddling" our way into the international market, we ARE going to make mistakes. Hopefully, we'll have a fast & steep learning curve & try to do better.
