posted on September 8, 2000 05:17:36 PM
I mostly sell my handmade home dec. items on Ebay, things like small quilts, pillows, potholders, etc. I make a lot of them from decorator fabrics and like to identify the maker of the fabric in the auction title as many of my fellow pillow etc. makers do. I just had an auction titled "Waverly French Country Floral Small Quilt" ended by Ebay after Waverly's parent company Schumacher reported a VERO violation. I currently have auctions running for Waverly fabric pillows and potholders that I have made and have noticed other auctions by other sellers up right now that are likewise handmade by the seller from Waverly fabric and identified as such in the title. What should I do...should I pull my other like auctions? I have never had this happen before and am clueless! HELP!!!
posted on September 8, 2000 05:25:53 PM
Welcome to the wonderful world of eBay, and not necessarily VeRO. They cancel auctions all the time based on hearsay 'evidence' sent to them from other users. No trial, no investigation ... nada. You are presumed guilty until you prove yourself innocent.
If I were you, I'd let the other auctions run, but, print out the list of current bidders (especially their email addies). When eBay cancels them, you won't have access to this info. You can probably contact these people after cancelation and sell your items with no listing or selling fees.
[hey! What a plan ... Hmmm .... if I get my OWN auctions canceled after a few bids by ratting out myself, I could ... Hmmmm....]
posted on September 8, 2000 05:38:18 PM
Well let's see. Your a customer and according to the suggestion on the AB last night eBay encourages you to call the head of the business if you have a question.
And the question is about eBay and Meg Whitman runs eBay. Following eBays' directive I guess your to call Meg.
Sorry to sound flip but eBay has me a little annoyed. Someone may be able to offer you constructive suggestions but I and maybe a few others have just thrown our hands up in total confusion and dismay over any rational dealings with eBay.
posted on September 8, 2000 06:35:55 PM
Canceling an auction based on someones say so and having to do with brand names is ridiuclous. For the most part I like eBay but I surely don't like this tactic. Before they pull an auction they should contact that seller and ask them what is what. I think they simply hire folks off the streets and tell them to monitor this or that or respond to this or that and don't bother training them which reminds me of something that happened back in June. There was a scammer on the eBay that I came across and so did other eBay sellers and buyers. Several reported this seller (a power seller). I did my usual and did my own investigation and a couple days later cut and pasted the stuff to safeharbor about it. In the meantime some of the others that had reported it started getting answers that they definately were investigating this person. My eBay person sends me a canned response that he could not see anything wrong this guy was doing therefore he wasn't going to take action. In the meantime I read that eBay suspended the seller at the same time I get this ebay jerks canned response. So I wrote a lengthy note back to him and asked him where the hell they hatched him from and I wanted to know what his background was as an investigator and I also attached all the emails coming thru from each person that had gotten an eBay response from safeharbor that they had terminated this seller. I advised him that eBay's investigative team did not know what the left hand was doing while the right hand was in a corner ......... well you get my drift. I told him he was a poor excuse for an investigator. I never heard from him again. I did get a form from eBay wanting to know if I was satisified in how this eBay guy had handled it; DUH! HELL NO! I told them my feelings and cut and pasted everything that had occurred and suggested they needed to get real investigators in there to really check things out and to either train that guy or get rid of him because all he was sending were canned responses. I got a response back from a different person apologizing and stating they took care of the matter and thanked me for making them aware of it cause they wanted us to be satisified with the investigations they do. Yeah Right!!! :)
Well looks like they still aren't doing it right if they just cancel someone's auctions without contacting that person and asking them to share or explain it to them.
I wish they'd pull one of my auctions I'd bombard them with emails to timesensitive, to customer service, to safeharbor, to meg to Pierre and so forth. BEEN THERE DONE THAT and got answers real quick like.
Don't stand for it. If you feel there is nothing wrong with your auction DEMAND TO KNOW WHY IT WAS PULLED and refuse to accept a CANNED RESPONSE.
As for sellers that report this kinda stuff to eBay because they don't like the competition should be hung by their balls or tiddes whichever fits.
Good grief this is the world wide web and there is room for all sorts of competition. sheesh!
[ edited by guyuellas on Sep 8, 2000 06:37 PM ]
[ edited by guyuellas on Sep 8, 2000 06:41 PM ]
posted on September 8, 2000 06:45:29 PM
So are you saying that you think a competitor turned this in to the VeRO police at Ebay....you don't think I was singled out by the Waverly internet police?? The competitive nastiness I sometimes find on Ebay always stuns me anew....I have done well in the 18 months I have sold on Ebay, and really just mind my own business, which is growing nicely, thank you. I have had a run in or two with people who have used my pictures and descriptions in their own auctions, but that was quite awhile ago. What I have personally found is that the people who copy, turn in, etc. etc. usually don't become successful in the long run as the key to this business is in finding your own niche/product rather than just following someone else. Is it worth the effort to pursue this with ebay or just a waste of my time?? I am tempted to just change the name of the auction and relist...
posted on September 8, 2000 06:48:45 PMsusiegirl ~ Do all of your auctions have bids? If they don't, I would simply revise the auction and say decorator fabrics without mentioning a brand name.
posted on September 8, 2000 06:51:40 PM
Most likely that's what happened. Just relist it and leave the Waverly VERO stuff out. You're right folks that try to get rid of their competition usually are insecure and usually end up losing in the long run. Good luck in relisting it.
And I still would pursue it with eBay as to why they cancelled it and refuse a canned response.
posted on September 8, 2000 07:02:21 PM
There is NOTHING wrong with you mentioning that you used Waverly fabric to make your items as long as the fabric is from the Waverly company. I think your mistake was in the wording in your title which suggests that the finished product was made by Waverly.
I would definitely ask eBay for the counter-notice form so you can protest the illegal closing of your auction. If more sellers took the time to do this the Vero's might be more careful when choosing auctions to close. Just be certain that the material you used is a Waverly fabric.
"It feels so good to shoot myself in the foot. I'll let others tell me to cancel auctions that make me money without bothering to investigate. I'll discontinue profitable categories to satisfy people who do not help me or pay me. I'll buy other businesses that directly compete with my own business. I'll annoy sellers and bidders alike with dumb schemes to get more money, but can't manage my core business. I'm eBay. Ain't I swell?"
posted on September 8, 2000 07:08:19 PM
Thanks bhearsch...and all of you! Now how do I find the counter-notice form...have not seen it mentioned anywhere. I am wondering if I just use the words "Waverly fabric" that that will then be legal? I do like to identify high quality fabric names such as Debbie Mumm, Pierre Deux, Brunschwig & Fils, etc. to let customers who are looking for these types of patterns find them in my auctions. You may be right that the Waverly police inferred that I was inferring that the product was made by Waverly, not just with Waverly fabric and made by me...although it did say in the auction "handmade by...", as we all know people just don't read descriptions very closely. I just don't want to get shut down for something like this, so am a little antsy/nervy about it. For now for this auction, I will relist it and not use the Waverly name. I am wondering why I wasn't notified about the Waverly fabric pillows and potholders I had up right at the same time????
posted on September 8, 2000 08:19:07 PM
Hello susiegirl. EBay doesn't make it easy to find the COUNTER-NOTICE form which is required under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in order to protest a VERO's action. There should be something mentioned about it in the email they sent you concerning your auction closure - possibly a link to protest their action.
If you can't find the link then send a query to the same email addy that sent you the info about your auction being pulled (and include their email to you) requesting the COUNTER-NOTICE form.
I have a copy of the form which was posted on the OAUA site so you will have an idea of what it looks like. EBay will send you instructions as well so I won't take up space including them here. As long as you know the fabric is from the Waverly company you will most likely have your auction reinstated. The VERO's often rely on the fact that most sellers won't bother to protest their action. I realize there are some legitimate copyright abuses going on and those auctions should be closed down. However, there are many, many mistakes being made by the VERO program and we should fight back to protect OUR rights!!
Here is the first part of the email you will receive after requesting the COUNTER-NOTICE:
[quote]EBay recognizes that sometimes an auction may be mistakenly identified by a Verified
Intellectual Property Owner, its agent, or law enforcement, as including an infringing or otherwise unauthorized or illegal item. In the event that such a mistake occurs, you should contact the complaining party directly. eBay will gladly allow you to re-list the item upon receipt of acknowledgement of the mistake from the complaining party.
Alternately, if the complaining party does not agree that the allegation was in error, you may also provide eBay the attached Counter-Notice Regarding Ended Auction. The Counter Notice form requests a sworn statement under the penalty of perjury and other information which substantially complies with the requirements of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. section 512, which states:[/quote]
Here is the form:
_____________________________________________
COUNTER-NOTICE REGARDING
ENDED AUCTION*
I. Penalty of Perjury Statement. I CERTIFY UNDER SWORN PENALTY OF
PERJURY that I am sending this notification on the basis of my good faith belief that the
auctions referred to below do not involve infringing materials or uses and have been
identified by a Verified Intellectual Property Owner, its agent, or law enforcement as
infringing by mistake or due to misidentification: (List Auction Items Below)
_____________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________
II. Consent to Federal Jurisdiction. I consent to the jurisdiction of the Federal District
Court for the address provided below, or if such address is outside the United States, I consent to jurisdiction of the Federal District Court, County of Santa Clara, California.
III. Consent for Service of Process. I agree to accept service of process from the Verified Intellectual Property Owner, its agent, or law enforcement.
IV. Contact Information. I certify that the following contact information is accurate and valid. I acknowledge that eBay will compare the contact information provided herein with my eBay contact information, and false or fraudulent information may result in suspension of my eBay account.
V. I understand that my knowing misrepresentation herein that material was removed by mistake or misidentification may make me liable under federal law for damages, including costs and attorneys’ fees. See 17 U.S.C. section 512.
VI. I understand that if the reporting party disagrees with the Counter-Notice it may file a legal action against me to prevent the re-listing of the ended auctions.
VII. Acknowledgement. I acknowledge that this notice is filed under penalty of perjury.
I may be contacted at:
Name____________________________________
Street Address____________________________________
___________________________________________
City and State____________________________________
Zip____________________________________
E-mail____________________________________
Telephone____________________________________
Fax____________________________________
Date____________________________________
Signature____________________________________
UNDER SWORN PENALTY OF PERJURY
Send to: eBay Inc., Attn: Legal Counter-Notice, 2145 Hamilton Ave., San Jose, CA 95125.
Attach to this notice any relevant correspondence, including emails, with eBay or the intellectual property owner.
* This Counter-Notice complies substantially with the requirements of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. section 512.
_____________________________________________
This is a partial copy and paste from a thread in the OAUA Forum.
posted on September 8, 2000 08:35:51 PM
Thanks so much Blanche...I will have to request a copy of the counter notice form by email to Ebay as they don't mention it in the VeRO email I got from them...hummmm, that is rather passive-agressive, don't you think?! I hope they haven't done away with it. If they have, then I will just put down my objections in a reply email. I have already replied to Waverly stating that the object is made by me from Waverly fabric, and that I am not mis-stating anything. Biggest problem with these problems is the time it takes away from primary business, but worth the hassle as my Waverly items get a lot of hits..and sales!
posted on September 8, 2000 08:38:04 PMThere is NOTHING wrong with you mentioning that you used Waverly fabric to make your items as long as the fabric is from the Waverly company. I think your mistake was in the wording in your title which suggests that the finished product was made by Waverly.
I think bhearsch is right on the money here. Waverly (unlike Mumm - Pierre Deux is a whole 'nother price point) doesn't just sell fabric; it's got a whole line of its own ready-mades. And "although [your auction] did say in the auction 'handmade by...'," if you're selling pillows of Waverly fabric and WAVERLY is selling pillows of Waverly fabric, guess what? VERO.
This is a problem with copyrighted-logo fabric too (Disney, Pokemon, NFL). You may find auctions listed, but I think they're pushing their luck. I wouldn't want to invest my time and $ making something that might get pulled. Yuck.
posted on September 8, 2000 08:44:43 PM
Just pick another auction site, and relist the item with a reserve to protect your investment.
Ebay was a great site, and still is, except, the mom and pop sellers, have so many rules, break one, and the Ebay police, folks that get off looking for violation of the rules on ebay, unpaid, will report your violation. And ebay will look at your auction, or violation, cancel the auction, or your account, without, your responce.
posted on September 8, 2000 09:10:21 PM
susiegirl, I haven't had anything VeRO'd, but ebay not too long ago nuked one of my auctions for mentioning the term "tortoise shell" in the title (if they'd taken the time to actually look at the item, they would have realized it was faux tortoise shell).
Anyway, my point is that the email they sent me contained language to the effect that if I persisted in listing tortoise shell items ebay would suspend me.
I imagine your email contained a similar warning. Until you've submitted the counter notice form, I'd give serious thought to revising the titles of your other Waverly items. Ebay has blindsided more than one innocent seller by NARU'ing them without notice. Since they have you on record as having been warned, they won't hesitate to suspend you should someone report you again.
When they nuked my auction, I simply rewrote the title, eliminating the term "tortoise shell" and substituting something applicable. In the description, I explained that the item had tortoise shell coloring, and was not a dead turtle.
Perhaps you can find another title that will allow you to run your auctions until you get this ironed out with them.
posted on September 9, 2000 09:26:21 AM
Hello all. I am new to auction selling. Started in May.
Last night I came home from a long day at work and a commute to find that ebay had removed one of my auctions.
A little slow on the uptake there because the auction ended 9/3. They sent notice of its removal on 9/8.
I have notified my winning bidder (a whole $3.49 for 55" of a Waverly fabric that's at least 30 years old) that I cannot complete the sale and will return her full payment when it arrives in the mail.
Unlike the others who had made something out of a Waverly product, I was just selling fabric (I collect it). Mentioned the fact that it was Waverly and showed a scan of the print. I believe that's where I violated copyright. I used an image of their copyrighted product to sell the product. Actually, I suspect even selling it is illegal.
I have sent an email to F. Shumacher through their website and now must wait until it is forwarded through their channels to whomever at F. Shumacher is the eBay police.
I have informed them of my intention to BURN ALL WAVERLY AND F. SHUMACHER FABRIC currently in possession. Will wait until I'm sure their not going to sue me over this little infraction of their copyright. Then, I'm going through every box of my fabric and pulling anything connected with them and having a BIG BONFIRE! I will never again purchase--not even for personal use--one inch of Waverly or F. Shumacher fabric. I cannot believe that a company that makes that much money can be worried about a poor little peon like me that attempts to resell a little bit of 30 year (or older) fabric for $3.49--including eBay fees, I didn't even have a profit of $1!
Of course, now I'm a wee bit paranoid and worried that I shouldn't sell anything on eBay because most of what I sell--fabric, vintage clothing and accessories mostly--was at one time or still is copyrighted, and therefore it is illegal for me to sell it.
I thought that things copyrighted prior to 1976 (they rewrote the laws that year) were only copyright for 26 years unless the holder of the copyright paid a fee to extend it. Obviously F. Shumacher has done this. I'm hoping that most other fabric companies in production 30+ years ago haven't!
I'll not start another auction until I hear from eBay and F. Shumacher. Is typing their name in a post a violation? They do have a trademark on it...
posted on September 9, 2000 09:31:38 AM
When eBay sends a message that an auction has ended by a VERO, doesn't the message give the email address of said VERO? If it doesn't, have either of you have had auctions ended at the request of this Waverly VERO replied to ask for that email address?
posted on September 9, 2000 09:57:39 AM
This issue has implications well beyond the current Waverly fabric discussion. For the majority of Ebay sellers, we can only describe our product using a brand name in the title....how else would it sell....and how illegal is that if we have obtained the product legally, whether new or used? If I am selling a Peter Pan book that is 20 years old, how can I describe it otherwise? There is a big issue here that perhaps I don't understand.
HartCottageQuilts, you make a valid point, but I am thinking that in the home dec business everyone from shops, to decorators, to upholsterers, et al make items from decorator fabrics like Waverly and then sell them.....Waverly MUST know that this is a primary business for them. I am going to now delineate my Waverly pillow and potholder auctions to say "Waverly fabric" in the title and see if that works out, and make it clearer up front that the product was handmade by me.
Now this Waverly fabric seller is another point...had auction VeRO'ed for selling a Waverly fabric remnant. If you do a search on the words "Waverly" or "Waverly fabric" you will see probably around 200 people who are STILL doing just that, so what gives with this selective prosecution????
I have received the email address of the Schumacher Co in the VeRO email...ebay automatically sends that in these cases, and I have already emailed them back. Will do so today, at greater length as well. I am wondering if there is anyone out there who has contacted VeRO'd companies with any results, either positive or negative.
posted on September 9, 2000 10:22:15 AM
Thanks, Glenda!
I was so tired when I was checking email last night that I missed the complainent's email address in the notice from ebay.
I have copied my diatribe from the earlier email to them and sent it to the proper address. Hope that I get a response. Good or bad, I just want to know that they read my email.
By the way, it's a new job -- I just started this week. And, one of my duties is to source fabric for production garments--up to thousands of yards. Bet you can guess that I'll be sure to never recommend purchase of a Waverly or F Shumacher fabric.
posted on September 9, 2000 12:22:58 PMpinsnneedles, although I understand your frustration, I can't imagine what burning all the Schumacher and Waverly fabric in your possession would accomplish, aside from cutting your nose to spite your face.
Do you really think they will give a good goddamn? Do you think that they'll be so upset they'll change their policy? No. The only party that will suffer is YOU, by depriving yourself of items you purchased.
Hey, if it makes you feel better, go ahead. Just keep in mind wholl be bearing the cost of your actions - it won't be the manufacturers.
susiegirl, I agree that "everyone from shops, to decorators, to upholsterers, et al make items from decorator fabrics like Waverly and then sell them.....Waverly MUST know that this is a primary business for them." However, an upholstery shop would not generally reupholster a chair, or a decorator make drapes, in quantity with the intent to resell to a secondary market (which would then compete with Waverly's own ready-made products). They perform custom upholstery and decorator work at the behest of a retail customer, and obtain the fabrics from Waverly or a licensed dealer at the customer's request. (This is not unlike the dress-pattern copyright issue: A dressmaker may not purchase e.g. a Vogue pattern and make 10 dresses from it for resale, but she may purchase and use a pattern on behalf of a single customer, whose owner that pattern becomes.)
I would guess that the "shops" who make items from Waverly fabrics for resale either are doing so at their own peril, or are (or their suppliers are) licensed resellers of Waverly products who have obtained permission from Waverly for this sort of activity.
Remember, too, that you're capitalizing on the Waverly name to market your goods (if you weren't, why not just eliminate "Waverly" entirely from your listings?). You are, therefore, using THEIR product, advertising, and market exposure to sell YOUR products.
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 9, 2000 12:32 PM ]
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Sep 9, 2000 12:33 PM ]
and guaranteed you will get a satisfactory answer back within a couple of hours. I've used this tactic 3 times in the last month, in the wee hours of this morning being the last time and within less than 2 hours I had someone from customer service contact me and work things out.
BEEN THERE DONE THAT.......... LOL
[ edited by guyuellas on Sep 9, 2000 12:33 PM ]
posted on September 9, 2000 01:44:01 PM
Hi guy ...
I have taken your advice and I have sent emails to timesensitive and Pierre. I tried the SafeHarbour route (5 times in the last two weeks), but all they are able to provide is the canned 'bot responses that do not address my concerns at all.
posted on September 9, 2000 01:46:25 PM
susiegirl, some folks here have avoided the VeRO problem by adding "TM" (trademark) immediately after each reference to the trademarked name. Perhaps that might satisfy Waverly and the others you mention.
posted on September 9, 2000 02:08:05 PM
Hartcottagequilts:
I know for a fact that F Shumacher could care less and will not be hurt if I burn or destroy any of their fabric in my possession. Might make me feel a little better. But, the more mental inventory I take of my stash, I'm almost positive that this one poor little piece of fabric is all I have of theirs. I am not in the habit of buying home dec fabrics as I mostly make clothing.
My buyer still wants the fabric, and if I can get this cleared up, I will most likely get the fabric to her somehow. If I can't get this cleared up...well, then I'll have I might have a need for matches.
My biggest gripe right now is that I'm getting nothing but canned responses from eBay. I asked specific questions and I'm getting form letters that don't even answer one of the questions.
Another responder on another board has clarified just exactly what is a copyright violation. I don't think that I did that, unless scanning the fabric and providing the scan in the auction is a violation.
We'll see if I ever hear from F Shumacher.
One thing that could possibly hurt them--one of my duties at my new job is to source fabrics. Thousands of yards of fabrics, used to make thousands of garments. You can be sure that I'll never recommend the use of an F Shumacher product. Maybe that will sting just a tiny bit.
posted on September 9, 2000 02:11:57 PM
I have had some of my auctions ending because of VeRO or infringing. That is OK with me, I shouldn't of been selling it (I guess). But there is one thing that hits my button, that will lead the next part of this message full of CAPS and expletives.
OTHER SAME EXACT GOD DAMNED ITEMS ARE STILL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE SAME EXACT ITEM! They can close down MY FRICKEN AUCTION and NOT the other 50 auctions OF THE SAME BLASTED ITEM!
In cases in the preceding paragraph, a VeRO member didn't/doesn't report you. It was some PRICK with to much free time trying to eliminate his competition or just someone who has a grudge with you.
You know what I did? I followed up with an appeal (had to wade through 5 canned responses), and on my last one the e-mail contained EVERY SINGLE ITEM NUMBER of the same exact "infringing" auctions. Know what happened?
"Thank you for support. Please use this survey as a way to let us help you better"
The message was something to that extent. They didn't close down the other auctions. I wasn't going to waste more valuable time and potential wasted money for this item not up, so I just listed it again.
posted on September 9, 2000 02:24:08 PM
If you are reselling Waverly fabric rather than other fabric which copies their patterns then claims of copyright infringement are almost certainly false and baseless. If the fabric is neither made by Waverly nor duplicates their patterns (i.e. misattributed) then it is likely to be a trademark abuse. Vero seems to be getting an awful lot of overkill. As sueing over false or mistaken vero actions doesn't seem likely to be practical the i.p. owners may be able to get away with outrageous behavior.
Copyright is quite specifically about copying creative works.
I see a lot of ridiculous overstatements of copyright rights around. For example I recently read "Since Coca-Cola owns the copyrights on the polar bear..." ...Good grief - no-one can copyright the polar bear, only thier very specific representation of it. However ... fighting a dubious claim can be expensive, and very risky if one gets into the (very broad) grey areas.
posted on September 9, 2000 03:25:22 PM
bluee - they're going to have to listen to me. I have contacted 5 different studios (copyright holders) about one specific category on eBay. eBay's written policy does not allow these items (they state in writing that studios consider the sale of these items to be copyright infringement), yet eBay continues to let over 350 separate listings on these to continue! I have told eBay what 3 out of 5 studios told me last year when I questioned the sale of these items on Amazon. It's pretty clear cut, and if eBay continues to allow them, I will send the studios after them, and I will 'hit the media'.
I am truly pi**ed that they allow these to run, yet they cancled mine based on a complaint from a competitor - NOTHING to do with VeRO
posted on September 9, 2000 05:21:07 PM
susiegirl~ I think Blanche & HCQ hit the nail on the head when they mentioned that your listing might sound like a Waverly manufactured & produced product. Please be aware that Pierre Duex has its own line of ready~to~wear household decorator items a la Waverly. Their headquarters in Paris is right next to my favorite boutique hotel, so I know the company well.
posted on September 10, 2000 05:48:30 AM
I would like to see something added to the VeRO process that gives a time limit for the VeRO to answer your e-mail or you are free to list this item, no questions asked.
I have had a handfull of auctions shut down by VeROs over the past couple of years and each time my requests for clarification have been ignored by the VeRO.
I feel that if the VeRO cannot tell you in a reasonable amount of time exactly why your item may infringe on their copyright, then you (the seller) should have the right to sell it. My last item that was shut down did not even have the VeRO company's name anywhere on the item and I certainly didn't use their name in the auction because I didn't know they even existed.
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