posted on September 13, 2000 08:19:18 AM
Well I see all these threads about Paypal.I told you so that they would eventually have to start charging for services.
This is only a natural process,for a business too be a business it has to make money.Sometimes I wonder what it takes for people to realise that.
People want free ebaY like Yahoo and Yahoo again looses money I would never invest my money in an outfit that looses millions of dollars regularly.Same applies to Amazon.
Free can only be free for so long,how about we all open up a restaurant and advertise free food.We will have great customers,lines out the doors but how long can you afford to do that.
Same applies to Paypal they have to make money and they are still cheaper than a merchant account.
Taking credit cards makes the whole buying and selling eaiser for us all,it leads too higher bids (hopefully),but there are expenses associated with it.
Typically a retailer has to pay approx 2% of each sale to the credit card co.How long do you think Paypal and others can afford to take that loss.
posted on September 13, 2000 08:34:26 AM
You are so right Adrian. The hysteria that is going along with this is unbelievable. First a posted decides that they are holding her money, a payment to yourself always shows as pending until it is actually sent, and now Paypal is going to break everyone with their fees. One month I may make $100, the next $1500. What is so hard about adding an extra .50 or 1.00 into the starting bid price of an item to cover potential fees? This is all about business. As I said in the other thread, people loved them as long as they were forking out the money for our cc fees, and the referral bonuses, but let them try and make a little profit and the place goes wild. I think this is a good thing, shows me that Paypal is here to stay, and if my piddly fees help make that happen I am all for it. You don't get something for nuthin'. Heather
posted on September 13, 2000 08:55:54 AM
I can usually tell the mature, seasoned sellers from the inexperienced "johnny-come-latelies" by their posts. Remember the "olden days" when you had to sacrifice and take some risk to start a business? You needed a storefront, stationary, advertising, business account, employees, inventory and a merchant account YOU paid for in order to accept credit cards? Today any clown with a cheap PC, a free ISP and some mail order catalogs considers himself a "businessman." (Except of course, for Paypal fees. They they're definitely NOT a business.)
These "businessmen" think that Yahoo and Juno and paypal and you name it should all spend small fortunes coming up with better ways to do things and then give it all away for free. Wake up people! Life is not risk-free. No one else is going to pay your way. If you have a "safe" job, you could get downsized or your company could go broke. If you have your own business, expect to take some risks and pay some costs.
You want a free paypal account, but you want paypal to take all the risks of charge backs. Of course, as a buyer, you also want paypal to take all the risks of seller fraud. You want Yahoo to remain free, while giving you unlimited auctions and putting in an effort to protect against deadbeats and scammers. But when Paypal asks for 1.9% you shout "No way!", when Yahoo limits you to 1,000 FREE auctions per month and unlimited featured auctions at a measly 10 cents, you shout "No way!" Guess what? You get what you pay for!
Remember when PCs cost over a thousand dollars and you bought them at a computer store from a knowledgeable salesman and got a one year service contract? Today you pay a few hundred bucks at a Cheap Charlie's where the salesman has a nose ring and barely speaks English. Then when it doesn't work, you bother every computer literate friend to take a look while you lose sales and credibility. But hey - you saved a few bucks!
So now you're going to drop paypal because the 1.9% is just breaking you. And drop ecount because they're charging $1. Of course bidpay and billpoint already charge. So you are left with Paydirect, which I'm sure will also charge before very long. Then you'll have to keep changing your TOS:
"Paypal accepted until Oct 1, Paydirect until Mar 2, Billpoint every other Tuesday if you pay with a Visa - oh the heck with it - just mail me cash."
Albert Einstein (if you don't remember who he is, you can probably find a reference or two on the Net, if you can get your PC connected) once said, "Sometimes the most expensive items we own are the ones we got for free."
posted on September 13, 2000 09:22:40 AM
But, let's divide up by our ideologies.
All the happy campers, log into this thread, tout to the heavens all the advantages of sharing your profit with EBAy and PayPal. All the unhappy campers log into the other thread, talk about deceptions past and deceptions yet to come.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:28:25 AM
>>All the happy campers, log into this thread, tout to the heavens all the advantages of sharing your profit with EBAy and PayPal. <<
You are not sharing YOUR profits with anyone. YOUR profits are what you have left AFTER you pay the cost of doing business. I assume that you pay for the goods you sell. Are you sharing YOUR profits with the manufacturer? Why not just steal the items and then you don't have to share YOUR profits with anyone?
The cost of doing business used to be storefront, advertising and merchant account. Now it's PC, auction site and payment service. If you don't want to pay for these, trying doing it all yourself. Otherwise, don't bite the hand that feeds you.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:31:51 AM
Maybe DECEPTION is too big a word for some to understand. How about LIES (a four letter word in the business world).
posted on September 13, 2000 09:32:15 AM
Yisgood,
I am a mature seasoned seller - I recognize a good deal when I see one and from the unprofessional viewpoint, PayPal appears to be a good deal.
But, they are LIARS. They have repeatedly LIED concerning their intentions. And LIED when asked point blank.
So, as a seasoned mature seller, I personally choose to take my business elsewhere and I intend to make my feelings known to any customer that asks.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:39:23 AM
hcross> to comment on your post and the others. I am the posted and thank you for the pending clarification. But the crux of the whole situation is DECEPTION plain and simple. When I go to the market, and an apple is .50 and I get to the check out and the clerk tells me it is now $1.00 because I used their cart to get it to the front of the store, that is DECEPTION. Had they told me *upfront* this cart may be used for a limited time free of charge and spelled out the timeline, that would be upfront. I guess that is why most people are upset. I just spoke to PayPal on the phone and the situation is *Being looked into*. The small amount they charge is yet another way for the tax man to get his share, (bet they got leaned on) and of course, PayPal has to make a profit. Upfront is the word for the day in MHO.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:42:24 AM
I have not addresses the problem of the Paypal lies. I was only answering to those who complained about the fees. The fees are fair. The approach was wrong. PP has a history of changing their terms in midstream. But this seems to be the American Way. "Read my lips - no new taxes." "I did not have a relationship with that woman." "It's only a dollar."
Over the years I have had my differences with different businesses and suppliers. Sometimes I was so angry that I wanted to just say 'the heck with you - I'm taking my business elsewhere." But unless I can find a better deal, I'd only be hurting myself.
I once swore I'd never be back on greedbay. But in the past few months I have made more there than on Yahoo - even after the fees. You have a right to be angry at PP. But don't shoot yourself in the foot showing it. If it costs you customers, you'd only be hurting yourself.
posted on September 13, 2000 09:54:02 AM
I'm trying to understand whose foot got shot here, t'weren't mine.
I had customers before PayPal and I will have them after PayPal.
I just don't understand how a mature seasoned seller can agree to be in business with a company that repeatedly LIES to them, just because they have better rates than the next guy. What kind of logic is that? How is that better for business, a business that you have built and nurtured?.. A business that depends on truth and HONESTY.
How many 'negatives' would you have if you LIED to your customers as much as PayPal has LIED to you?
posted on September 13, 2000 10:00:56 AM
I never believed that it would stay free. From day one I thought that the folks behind PP were very naive if they thought they could do that. So I expected to pay fees at some point. But I did cancel my merchant account and between what I saved on their fees and the referrals I made when I sent new customers to PP, I am several thousand dollars ahead.
I have lots of repeat business. Hardly a day goes by that I dont get another "someone has sent you money" email. It would cost me too much to start emailing everyone and telling them I no longer accept PP. What I will do is send my new customers to Payplace and Paydirect, while they are still free (for how much longer?) There is nothing wrong with maximizing profits.
Incindentally, my bank has done things to me a lot worse than PP. My mortgage company. The IRS. Unfortunately, I can't just stop doing business with everyone I get angry at, no matter what the provocation. I have to consider the long range consequences.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:03:05 AM
For me it's not the fees. I didn't sign up with paypal because they were free...I signed up because the customers wanted to use it. I didn't buy into the "we will earn money from the float" statements paypal made...from the first I knew this was illogical and paypal would be charging fees.
I don't mind paying for what I get..I fully recognize a business has to spend money to make money and can not expect to get needed services for free. There is always a price with "free" stuff which is why i don't buy into the "Yahoo is great and it's free" line.
Even though I do expect to pay for services such as billpoint, paypal and ebay, I don't expect to make payment to a company who has been deceptive from day one. Paypal has been practicing on big scam on it's users. What we are seeing now is the fullfillment of their original game plan...hook the suckers, lots of them, and when they are dependant on us go for the kill.
I don't want to do business with a company that delibertly hid their ultimate plans in order to generate "critical mass". If paypal had been upfront from the get go there wouldn't be this problem now.
Paypal reminds me of a used car dealer or a shyster lawyer...sleezy!
posted on September 13, 2000 10:13:46 AM
I understand why people are upset because PayPal's inital claims of "always free" have turned out to be untrue.
Since PayPal is a business, however, I think it's understandable that they've begun to charge for their services. If they don't make money, their company will fail and vanish.
As they've grown their business plan has had to change. The company I work for used to claim that our product was all-around better than the competition's. We recently bought the competition and now we tout the different uses for each product. PayPal was bought by x.com, and new management brings change.
The downside for me is that I'm a hobby seller who has considered turning this into a legitimate part-time business, but I haven't been sure I want to do that. Since I want to continue using PayPal, the heat is on for me to decide, to... ummm.... poop or get off the pot.
As a x-used car salesman who worked at the same dealership for 7 years with numerous repeat business.This statement does offend me.Most used car sales people and lawyers are not SLEEZY.Just like most ebaY sellers are not Sleezy either.
Paypal reminds me of a used car dealer or a shyster lawyer...sleezy
Everyone else.....
Anyway it may very well have been Paypals intention to make this a free service and rely on the float.We have no idea as to what their intentions where at the start.
Problem is that most people do not like to leave money sitting in their accounts as soon as they get it,they then request it be moved to their bank account.
If paypal had stated you cannot remove funds for a period of one week it may have worked but who here would have let them do that.I would but most would not.
I never believed for one minute that it would ever be free,all I was interested in was the fact that my customers wanted it.Still is cheaper than a merchant account therefore I will continue to use them.
Its a good business decision and makes sense to use them.It will help out this season as people can bid a week before christmas and still get there items.If you noticed last year christmas was a let down for most.It looks to be different this year will Paypal and Billpoint.
I don't think I was ever lied too I think they just came to the realisation that they could not continue for free.
What would you rather have them do say sorry folks we said it will be free and we cannot keep it that way.So as not to upset all of you out their and go against or word we are going out of business.
What a dumb business decision to make,better stay in business change your stratergy.You may loose business and maybe lots of it but at least you are turning a profit on the rest and that's the bottom line.
I have never heard of an company saying oh if we decide to charge with the intent to make a profit and stay in business we will loose all or a good number of customers.
They offered a service for free,it no longer works for free but at least they tried.
Anybody else here want to try it themselves
and replace Paypal and do it for nothing.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:21:06 AM
I agree that the point is not the size of the fees Paypal charges, it's the fact they have been so deceptive, to the point of out-and-out lying.
"Paypal will always be free" "No one will be forced to upgrade..."
Well, as we all now know, neither of these statements is true. Here's another statement that PP has made over and over... do you trust them to keep their word?
"We'll never access your bank account without your permission"
Personally, I'm not taking the chance.
edited to add..
I haven't seen specifics about what they consider "permission". Maybe just agreeing to their TOS? Using their service even once?
Most used car sales people and lawyers are not SLEEZY
You know nothing of MOST of either, and have no standing to be offended by Amy possibly having known one of each.
I have known at least one sleazy used car dealer, and one sleazy lawyer. I'm quite sure that there are more of each, but I can't say that most are or are not, anymore than you can.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:30:38 AM
Yes, PapPal went about this all wrong...a notification, and explanation BEFORE withholding funds would have made ME much happier...BUT..I think that the new terms to the seller are reasonable...I still prefer PayPal to Billpoint, even though I use both...and if having a Premier account means I can use PayPal with my international buyers, so much the better...if they institute a debit card system, even better...I am willing to pay a small fee for that...good grief...my bank "holds me up" on a monthly basis with ever increasing fees and I receive no new services for it! When I went to my account, after reading many threads here, I had the same notice awaiting me...I clicked on the "Premier" account and the upgrade was automatic, no entering of additional info, etc. Of course, I am a verified account holder so I would imagine that this facilitated the process...BTW, they have been telling all of us for some time now that we would need to have a verified account to continue doing business on PayPal. This is a business...we are supposed to be business people...PayPal is cheap by comparison to other merchant accounts...NO, THEY DID NOT HANDLE IT WELL...but let's get on with the fact of doing business! Suz
posted on September 13, 2000 10:40:22 AM
You're absolutely right, Joanne.
It's not the fees. It's the way PayPal implements its changes. It comes across as deceptive. PayPal management has no clue about customer service or public relations.
Why do we have to learn about changes by logging onto our accounts and having this screen pop up as a surprise? Why not a friendly e-mail to all, detailing how the purpose/intent of PayPal has evolved in nice and unexpected ways -- i.e. it was intended to allow parents to "beam" money to a child away at school or to collect money for a group outing, but it's become the largest online auction payment service -- and the original business model didn't account for this. To stay in business, PayPal needs to follow a more traditional payment service model.
Why not be upfront and honest and explain what those of us who signed on with PayPal in the early days -- BEFORE it was a hit on eBay-- already know is really behind this?
TO STAY IN BUSINESS, YOU NEED CREDIBILITY.
PayPal's been running awfully low on credibility lately.
Just be honest with us, PayPal. Don't promise more than you can deliver and then send your minions out to reassure us that what you're about to do won't ever, ever happen.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:43:32 AM
Imabrit, PayPal was asked directly and point blank and LIED.
Does that not bother you?
In another thread, BARRY ,aka godzillatemple, put it in the most perfect way.
" I never believed for one minute that it would ever be free .." you said, and I find interesting. What else have they said that you don't believe?
Personally, I feel I have an obligation to my customers and myself to associate with people and businesses who keep their word.
The fact is when I ask a question point blank, I truly expect to be answered HONESTLY. Tell me the truth and let me decide how I choose to deal with it. Don't hide the facts from me and LIE.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:48:53 AM
imabrit, those of us who had this discussion months ago here in AW about how Paypal makes money & their subsequent introduction of Paypal business, are not at all surprise by this new move. To me, its long over-due. Not something that I look forward to but expected.
I knew that FREE means 'introductory period'. Get a solid base of users & then start charging fees. If you are one of those who only cheered Paypal when it was free, well times up.
I expect in the months to come we will revert back to our old arguments of accepting personnal checks. Notice with Paypal, no one ever argued if accepting checks is good for business.
posted on September 13, 2000 10:49:39 AM
Krs...not angry, LOL. More of a "I told you so" without actually saying it.
Adrian..I'm truely sorry if I offended you. there is NO WAY I would ever think of you as sleezy. My statement was more of a general allusion to the scam artists who sell used cars...they are really not part of the legitimate business of selling used cars, they are crooks, pure and simple, who "sell" used cars...used cars are their con game. I truely did not mean to suggest the legitimate car dealers were crooks.
To address your other points...I think this was the game plan from the very beginning. A company that was backed by the experienced money that was backing paypal/x.com HAD to have known there was no way they were going to make money on just the float. These weren't naive guys starting this in their basement with a few bucks and no prior business experience. It is illogical to think they were that naive!
If they were that naive and have since found that their original game plan was seriously flawed, then they should have been up front with us. Tell us that "Yes, we did make promises of always being free and we did think we could make a profit on the float...but the realities have shown themselves and we now realize how mistaken we were. We have to start charging fees in order to continue in business. We think we have a service that is valuable to the OAI but in order to continue to offer this service we need to charge you a fee".
Instead, we have Damon (who purports to be an official reprresentaive of paypal) denying that paypal ever promised to be free for everyone. He is now saying they "Always" said it was only free for person to person and businesses "always" had to register as businesses. To me this is suggestive of a company who has been practicing deception from day one. Paypal is trying to rewrite history...trying to make it look like we had just "misunderstood" how we were told paypal would work.
The Christmas season is fast approaching and a quick, easy, inexpensive way for the buyer to pay with his credit card will help make it a great selling season. But I don't need paypal for that...I was using billpoint last Christmas season (started using it in late Oct) before paypal...i still can use billpoint...and because it accomodates international bidders and is intregrated with ebay where I exclusively sell, it is a much better alternative to paypal (who I NEVER trusted)
posted on September 13, 2000 10:50:12 AM
I have a storefront and it costs me about $45 a month for a dedicated line for my bank terminal and $39 each month to lease it. Each CC charge is 2.5% to 3.5% and each card swiped costs an additional 15 cents. These costs are in Can funds.
After having a CC merchant account for many years at 3.5% at one bank they surprised me one day by saying it would rise to 5% unless I maintained a certain level of sales each month with that card. During the slow season I was lucky to have that amount of sales in total let alone with that CC. Did this bank lie to me? Well, not really as the fee was still 3.5% but there was a big "if". I found a bank that offered me 2.5% and I moved all my accounts to them.
I am into my 16th year of business and I have been lied to by suppliers, sales reps, banks, customers, the government and yes, even once by a used car salesman and another time by a lawyer. I have learned to adapt and move on. I work it out with some and other times I am forced to do things different.
