posted on October 6, 2000 07:28:38 AM new
I've noticed a great many auctions that have no stated TOS beyond the cost of shipping. I'm not talking about newbies either, but experienced auction sellers.
What do you think? I am beginning to feel that most people know the routine and that those that don't probably aren't going to get it from the TOS anyway.
posted on October 6, 2000 07:55:59 AM new
Personally, I try to keep my TOS as short as possible. IMHO, nothing makes me back out of an auction faster than a lengthy TOS. There's too much competition to waste time wading and jumping through all the hoops of a long TOS.
posted on October 6, 2000 07:56:53 AM new
Smart sellers don't clog up descriptions with all that crap.
Dumb sellers try to cover every base. This means they have 24 lines about payment restrictions and 1 or 2 lines about the item (including vague descritpion).
It's a classic example of ego at work;
"I only care about what benefits ME---the payment. The description only benefits the lowly buyer, so why should I bother!"
posted on October 6, 2000 07:59:17 AM new
I've operated that way since I started selling nearly 2 years ago. I have few deadbeats and no more problems (probably fewer) than those who spell out every detail.
If someone is serious about buying an item, they'll pay in a timely manner. If they're not serious, they could care less about all the 'fine print.'
I occasionally buy also. Nothing turns me away faster (except music!) than a host of 'rules and regulations' longer than the item description.
posted on October 6, 2000 08:21:00 AM new
Right on! As much as you may think you can cover any and every eventuality in your TOS, and as long as it may get, you still can't. Always keep it short and simple. The bad buyers ignore TOS completely and the good ones (the vast majority) don't need to read manifestos to complete a transaction.
posted on October 6, 2000 09:38:19 AM new
I'm in my 4th year of selling on ebay, I still use the same short and sweet TOS I started with. Less is more.......
posted on October 6, 2000 10:40:10 AM new
I think it's overstatement. I developed my TOS after spending some time on the boards learning what potential problems buyers and sellers faced on a regular basis. Those items that are most likely to raise questions or be used as "but you didn't say...." arguments are included in my listing TOS. I do, however, keep it short and sweet, and I expand on it in my EOA notice. Thus far, I've had no arguments from a buyer that my TOS were misleading or unreasonable, and I have enough buyers to keep my business going. I'd hate to risk doing business without TOS. I suppose someone who did MIGHT get lucky and no bad bidders would find his auction.....I can't afford to risk that, though.
posted on October 6, 2000 10:48:36 AM newEven a short TOS seems too much.
I suppose it depends on whether or not you feel your bidders are at all interested in your sales policies (type of payment accepted, shipping charges, time frame for shipping, etc.)- I know that if I come across an auction with little or none of the above listed, I just pass on by.
A page and a half of terms is probably overkill, but a short, to-the-point paragraph briefly stating your terms is likely to be helpful to the buyer in making a decision to bid.
posted on October 6, 2000 11:12:16 AM new
Mballai, to answer your specific question, I think any time we omit stating our terms, we are begging for trouble.....that will invariably be the time everything goes wrong. And we will be in the position of NOT having stated our terms upfront! Although most seasoned eBayers pretty well know the routine, there are always the newcomers, as well as some older hands who enjoy being difficult.
This will probably draw fire (especially from those who don't read too carefully), but I've often wished that eBay had some uniform terms for a lot of this...kind of a "one-size-fits-all" TOS, which would allow for slight modificatons by the seller.
For instance, there was a thread here about sales tax; there have been threads about the time frame for payment, shipping methods, payment methods, etc.
All that eBay specifies is that the seller and buyer should contact each other within 3 business days. They could continue this with a few more lines...like, 'payment is expected to reach the seller within xx days. Please check with your seller to see if sales tax is applicable. Shipment is by USPS unless otherwise stated. Please see item description for payment methods which are acceptable to seller. Seller is required to ship merchandise within xx days, or fewer, of receipt of payment. Seller guarantees that merchandise is as described, or will refund (shipping damage excepted), etc., etc.'
PLEASE...this is intended as an example ONLY, so please don't jump on any one suggested term because it wouldn't work for you. My point is merely that eBay could incorporate something of this nature into every auction, just the basics that cover the most important issues. Thus, instead of setting ALL of our individual terms, certain things would be standard. Then, instead of saying "we", we could say, "under eBay rules", a little bonus that would make us look better.
As for anyone being foolish enough to add "we will neg you!" to the description....well, what can any of us say about those sellers?
posted on October 6, 2000 11:31:09 AM new
gc2 - Wouldn't work takes away ebay's veil of Venue Only.
mballai - Terms Of Service (TOS) less is more. When writing the darn the things it would nice if sellers would image themselves in a brick and mortar business. If they did they would form the conclusion that if they wouldn't have that long TOS on the shop wall by the register why have it on an auction.
A simple TOS.
1. State Shipping method and handling fees if any.
2. Specify payment options and check holds if any.
3. Explain refund and exchange policy if any.
4. Email me at [email protected] if you have any questions.
However like everything else in society. Great things get ruined when average people get to inject their thoughts into them. I tell people this everyday, this is business get professional or please get out so the rest of us can make money. You and others might not like it but the lack of professionalism is what is ruining the venue. That includes the unprofessional behavior of ebay staff and policy as well.
posted on October 7, 2000 03:29:42 AM new
Over the years I've shortened up an already short toss. now I'm coming back after a 4 month hiatus and I see everybody complaining about more and more NPB. And I see Tos getting longer and longer.
My opinion:they're either gonna pay or they ain't! and no length of TOS or rules is going to make one iota of difference. I have a lot to start getting on and no time to play games, so I've decided on this:
Winning bidder to pay by check or M.O and pay $$$ priority shipping and insurance.
EOA is almost as short and simple , a congratulations on winning, a total and my address, then a thank-you for bidding.
Keeping a date book, they get a reminder notice after 15 days and at 30 days it goes to ebay for refund of final value fees.
posted on October 7, 2000 08:11:24 AM new
Some sellers keep their TOS short, and then have the full-length version on their ME page. There's a link to the ME page in their TOS. I don't do that but if some buyer really wants to know all the information, they can read the ME page if so motivated.
posted on October 7, 2000 08:58:09 AM new
I personally see no reason for a lengthy TOS either. Like networker's example.
When I see a lengthy TOS, I see a Seller with a chip on his/her shoulder -- could have been hard won, but that's not MY fault and I'm not eager to get involved with someone who's got his dukes up, expecting more trouble than he's already had. And yes, they put the emphasis on Seller Protection at the cost of Customer Service.
I don't even see any need for return policy. For one thing, I personally don't expect to have to have much of one (because I don't expect my buyers to be unhappy), and for another it'll be on a case-by-case basis anyway. If it's a case of buyer's remorse (highly overstated as a practice IMO), then no postage. If I somehow mis-stated the condition (it can happen), then I'd probably try to issue a partial refund instead of taking the item back. If that doesn't work, then I'll do what's necessary, and that would probably include postage both ways.
BTW, I NEVER buy from someone who states "All sales are final." That's an immediate red flag for me.
As for NPBs, I send a maximum of two, MAYBE three EOAs within a week or less after close of auction and then go straight to filing an NPB as soon as I'm able. I don't cry over spilt milk. I get my FVF back, what's the big deal? I haven't had an occasion where I haven't received reasonably prompt payment, but I'd probably give people 15 to 20 days, a single follow-up email, and then immediately file an NPB. I wouldn't neg them, however, until AFTEr the 10 day period the NPB requires before filing for FVF credit. Again, no big deal to me. It happens to everybody eventually (on-line or off). Why lose sleep about it?
posted on October 7, 2000 09:14:18 AM new
I run auctions I sell interesting collectable and a few near antiques. I tried selling TOS once but I couldnt even sell it with a 1 cent start bid there is no market for it.
I use Item desrciption shipping and a way to pay buy Credit card and let them know I take checks and money orders.
pretty simple and to the point do the same in my EOA simple and to the point my name and mailing address for any checks money orders ask for the buyer shipping address thats it.
Its my feeling that these people bid and won my item they must have bid cause they wanted it I tell them what the cost to ship is and how they can pay there total.
if they dont pay with in 10 or 15 day I write them and ask if they have forgoten or made a mistake 5 days later I just move on no TOS required most items get many veiws from others buyers if I list it interested buyers will come along if not there is more then one way to sell these items garage sales and flee markets are cash in the hand when you sell, and many times I can sell more faster and make more with less cost to me.
I find many times it takes me 5 month at auction to sell what can be sold at a garage sale or flea market in one weekend no checks all cash no TOS no buyer saying it wasnt what I though ECT and usually selling to the same buyer and seller of online auction.
posted on October 7, 2000 09:44:23 AM new
I don't really consider the information I include in my listings a TOS. I state:
1) Shipping costs and how the item will be shipped.
2) Payment methods I accept -- and that checks may be held for ten days.
I recently opened my auctions to international bidders, and I added a note that I won't mark the item as a gift and that the value listed on the Customs form will be the final bid price.
It's short and simple, yet covers everything important.
posted on October 7, 2000 09:46:58 AM new
Customers who neeeeeeeed to follow a TOS, they don't even read it, anyway! LOL The other 98.9% of RL customers do NOT need to be told how to remit payment for an item they have purchased!
posted on October 7, 2000 09:56:54 AM newThe other 98.9% of RL customers do NOT need to be told how to remit payment for an item they have purchased!
There are posters here (or have been, anyway) who have said that they cannot accept checks since they do not have a checking account. Aside from a TOS, how are they going to make this information available to bidders?
posted on October 7, 2000 10:18:59 AM new
I use my TOS to describe what I will do (cost and method of shipping, payment forms accepted, check hold, shipping next business day after payment recieved). That's it. It is 2 sentences long. I figure the buyer already knows what s/he is supposed to do (send me the money), and s/he will either do it or not. I've only had one non-payer in over a year on eBay, and just a few slow pays, so for me this method works just fine.
posted on October 7, 2000 10:27:53 AM new
Mrpotatoheadd: a couple sentences can state, "Sowwy, NO checks" - I presumed that the originator of this thread was referring to some sellers NOT having one foot or more of transaction terms and conditions.
posted on October 7, 2000 11:00:37 AM new
Stateing in a auction listing payment methods you can or cant take is not TOS it is part of the listing which should have the basics Who, What, where,when,why and how
look at the sales ads that you get in your mail for walmarts kmart and any other. You will see payment methods but you wont find no TOS at the bottom in small print you will find a disclaimers about all items many not be avalable in all stores color size or name brands many vary and so on.
But the whowhat where when why and how of good writeing will all be there.
WWW.dman-n-company.com
posted on October 7, 2000 01:29:23 PM newThere are posters here (or have been, anyway) who have said that they cannot accept checks since they do not have a checking account. Aside from a TOS, how are they going to make this information available to bidders?
By getting a checking account?
I've been buying a lot lately. One thing I'm starting to avoid is a seller with any special requirements. Real sellers take my money and send my stuff. The rest need to be avoided, because they construct a minefield they expect the buyer to traverse correctly or they get mad. Life's too short, or, alternatively, the list of competitive items for sale is too long.
posted on October 7, 2000 03:34:54 PM new
Yeah, who needs it? When the TOS is 6 inches long and the description is a half an inch or less?
My best investment was a scale so that I can tell exactly what the postage (and insurance) is going to be.I think the customers appreciate knowing that beforehand.
Like the motel ad: The best surprise is no surprise at all.
posted on October 7, 2000 05:01:54 PM new
i know for myself, that i dont go to ebay to read WAR and PEACE when it comes to TOS. I think the problem is that for myself, (as i can only speak for myself) I assume that the TOS is what MY definition of a professional TOS should be. I doubt that i am the only one that does such a thing...assuming, that is! The ONLY differences there should be are whether someone will ship internationally and what form of payment they are willing to accept. The rest should be a STANDARD guideline. Does it REALLY need to be THIS difficult? I saw an ad today where the seller stated that THE BUYER HAD TO CONTACT HIM to make the first contact within 3 days!! Give me a break!! If a TOS is lengthy...then i cruise on by...when i have money burning a hole in my pocket, i dont have the time to read a novel about someones TOS.
posted on October 7, 2000 05:30:18 PM new
lalatte: even a couple years ago, the TOS were starting to get "strict", and I remember simply being AFRAID to bid on those type of auctions, and ended up placing bids ONLY on the auctions of sellers who presented themselves as friendly and sincerely *nice*!
"I am zee zelleR, and ewE vill oH-BAY myeBay TOS, at aLL times, with n0 complainTs,and ewE vill bee a HAPPY bidder who triEs toviN zee auction by bidding FREQUENTLY again &again & again. ewE VILL promise to bringgenuine i.d. along, when ewE HAND DELIVER zeepayment, within 4 hours after EOA, and ewEshall kisS mY feEt vith gratiTudE for havinghad zee distinct and subliMe honor ofpurchasing zeese fine merchandise from ME."
posted on October 7, 2000 05:45:22 PM new
hmmmm rad...not quite sure what you are saying. who isnt friendly and nice?? i am merely saying that people shouldnt be so asinine to the point that sellers HAVE to write a long drawn out TOS to cover their a**es. In my mind it is pretty simple..."I bid, I pay, I receive the item. The End." I think it is unfortunate that sellers have to be so leary in postings....i thought ebay was suppose to be fun?
posted on October 7, 2000 09:49:20 PM newMrpotatoheadd: a couple sentences can state, "Sowwy, NO checks" - I presumed that the originator of this thread was referring to some sellers NOT having one foot or more of transaction terms and conditions.
Sorry about that- I was posting based on the original poster's comment of:
...no stated TOS beyond the cost of shipping.
I didn't realize you were talking about something different.
