msstone
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posted on October 24, 2000 03:27:31 PM
Food for thought buyers. A jewelery item is posted for one dollar because of competion. You come in and snipe it for one dollar and then whine, carp, accuse, and deride the seller for the plainly posted S/H of $3.50.
Here is the reality.
25 cents to ebay for posting
25 cents to ebay for gallery
5 cents to ebay for comission
25 cents to pay pal for their commision
1.50 for packing materials
10 minutes to type invoice and shipping label
at $5.00 per hour that equals 80 cents.
Aother 10 minutes to drive to the post office .80 cents. That total comes to $4.75. So the sellers out .25 before we talk about the cost of the item. Another 85 cents for insurance and the other 44 cents postage for the oversized bubble envelope that your piece of jewelry went into to protect it. So there are no questions that you got your deal.
We are not even counting the half an hour the seller has to stand in line at the post office. We haven't talked about the time it takes to photograph, download, and upload the photos, and then to list an item. The time it takes to email out payment instructions at the end of the auction, the confirmation of shipment notice.
We haven't calculated the other half an hour that the seller spent answering your beligerent emails about how you can ship it for .85 cent. How unethical the seller is for charging more then the actual postage. How the seller is ripping off the buyer.
Now this wasn't a very expensive item but still. Sellers are in this business to make a profit. Great you got the deal of the night and you beat the seller out of any profit and even their cash outlay and all the time they spent to list and mail this item.
I know most of you buyers are wonderful to work with truely a pleasure. So maybe you will think about this the next time you snipe that item at a dollar. You can say to yourself I got a great deal thank you seller.
[ edited by msstone on Oct 24, 2000 03:34 PM ]
[ edited by msstone on Oct 24, 2000 03:38 PM ]
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macandjan
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posted on October 24, 2000 03:33:19 PM
[ edited by macandjan on Dec 3, 2000 05:46 PM ]
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HartCottageQuilts
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posted on October 24, 2000 03:55:24 PM
Although I agree with you regarding the costs of doing business, it needs to be pointed out that if somebody "snipe[s] that item at a dollar," that means one of two things:
The bidding started at $1 and there have been NO other bids on the item. In that case, no matter when the bidder put in his bid, he's not going to have to pay more than the opening bid if nobody else wants the item. Seller needs to look at WHY there are no other bids - and this means going farther than blaming ebay outages.
OR
Seller's started the bidding at even less than $1, taking a gamble that (a) ebay will be operational and (b) his item is so desirable there'll be a bidding war, or both. These can hardly be blamed on the seller.
In both cases, seller has a lot of control over the outcome. Either start the bidding at the minimum you need to cover your costs (or set a competitive starting bid and use a reserve), or - if your competition is undercutting you so badly that you have to start your bidding - consider changing your line of merchandise.
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msstone
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posted on October 24, 2000 04:15:38 PM
I think you missed the point of this thread. It is not about the $1.00. The seller knows that when they post at $1.00 they run a gamble. Its about the buyer complaining about the plainly stated and posted S/H. Not being happy that they got a great deal but that the seller dare to try and recoup their costs of S/H. This thread is also about what the real costs are of that great deal.
Some buyers need to think about this.
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reddeer
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posted on October 24, 2000 04:21:35 PM
I got a great deal, thank you seller.
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msstone
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posted on October 24, 2000 04:30:07 PM
Reddeer: The seller says thank you for your business it is a pleasure to work with you. Please watch my auctions in the future.
You will because you know you are dealing with an honest seller and you got a great deal.
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Shadowcat
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posted on October 24, 2000 04:40:56 PM
While I have no patience with bidders who quibble over clearly stated TOS, I'm rather put off by your attitude that the bidders should be grateful that you put your widget up for auction at a price less than your expenses and then expect to make up your loss through S&H fees.
Isn't that called "fee avoidance"?
I think I have a pretty good grip on reality but thanks for worrying...
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Capriole
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posted on October 24, 2000 04:57:13 PM
Thanks Shadowcat,
Couldn't have said it better if I tried.
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jamesoblivion
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posted on October 24, 2000 04:59:36 PM
Golly, I sure am glad I don't have your buyers, msstone.
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msstone
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:08:04 PM
Shadow cat Let me reiterate the costs for you because there is no overcharging for S/H.
1.50 cents for packing materials.
.85 insurance
.44 postage for over sized bubble envelope.
.80 to type invoice and shipping label
.80 to drive to the post office.
this comes to 4.39 cents These are Shipping and handling fees are $3.50. So where is there an overcharge? The seller is already losing .89 cents on S/H. plus time. Do you work for free? Is your time worth nothing?
Shadow Cat perhaps if you read the thread a little more carefully you would have seen that most buyers are a pleasure to work with.
Maybe you fall into that catagory maybe not.
This is not a accusation this is a story for some buyers to think about the reality of selling on ebay.
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phbroz
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:11:46 PM
msstone....
It just seems to me to be a bad business practice to double and even triple charge your customers on the shipping.
Why not just set your opening bid higher and charge a reasonable amount on the shipping?
If I were looking at an auction and the seller was charging an unrealistic shipping charge, I would move on, and probably be tempted to let them know about it.
BTW...I sell exclusively
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phbroz
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:18:58 PM
1.50 cents for packing materials.
.85 insurance
.44 postage for over sized bubble envelope.
.80 to type invoice and shipping label
.80 to drive to the post office.
msstone....
Looking over your expenses I get a total of
$1.29 (.85 insurance .44 postage for over sized bubble envelope.)
ALL the rest is a bunch of bull.
[ edited by phbroz on Oct 24, 2000 05:19 PM ]
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twinsoft
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:26:28 PM
Msstone I agree with you 100% as do others that shipping costs need to be charged separately, expecially for inexpensive items. If a seller is "profit-gouging" there is no need to worry about shipping. Sellers with a high-volume model must recover their shipping costs not included in the bid price. It would irk me too if a seller won an item for $1 and then complained about stated shipping costs. It happened to me several times and I invited the buyer to cancel the deal if they didn't like the shipping terms.
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Libra63
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:27:34 PM
I really don't think S/H of $3.50 is outrageous. There are sellers that are in it for the business and therefore will charge for all their materials besides postage and then there are sellers that just charge for postage. What's wrong with that. If you don't like their S/H charges don't bid. I don't charge for handling but I never start an auction at $1.00 either, it just doesn't pay. My time and my merchandise is worth more than that and if it isn't I won't sell it. If you want the item and the S/H charges are within reason bid, if you think the S/H are to high don't bid. It's that simple.
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amy
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:35:41 PM
Msstone..give up honey...there ain't no way your going to get these posters to realize that the cost of packing materials is a legitimate part of "shipping".
Next time you get a customer like that..just tell them you are cancelling the deal, wish 'em luck and say bye-bye.
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MAH645
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:36:16 PM
To me starting an item for a $1.00 doesn't make any sense.How do you make money doing this when it gets bid in for a dollar? I have alot of competition too, but I never start anything a $1.00 if I don't think I get a at least a $5.00 bid and make profit..I don't list.
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msstone
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:38:43 PM
First and foremost: I do not list my items for 1.00 without a reserve. My items are much more expensive then can be listed for one dollar. 2nd. This story is not even about me.
The point is not the dollar. It is the point of Shipping and Handling which is plainly posted in the TOS. This is about a buyer who gets a great deal and whines that they have to pay the $3.50 plainly stated in the TOS for shipping and handling.
Then wastes the sellers time further with their beligerent emails. If they did not want to pay the $3.50 then they should not have bid on the item. Thats the point.
HOW MANY OF YOU BUYERS HAVE EVER GIVEN IT A MINUTES THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT GOES INTO PUTTING UP AN EBAY AUCTION from the sellers point of view. The time and expense? Thats the other point.
I am posting this thread because I wonder that question. I am unable to work outside of my home because of a 17 year illness and disability. Ebay has given me an opportunity to work at the field I love from my home office.
I have had buyers complain about my S/H costs. I tell them to please wait until they see how well their item is packaged. They will see that a lot of time and money went into packaging. Many of my feedback state how well the items were packed.
What I hear as usual from some of the posters is hostility and aggression. They are right whether this thread applies to them or not.
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Glenda
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:39:42 PM
I buy on eBay almost exclusively, and I wouldn't - in this situation - quibble about the $3.50 s&h fee; it's certainly not out of line with what one would pay if buying at an established mail order store.
I am making a couple of presumptions, though: (1) the $3.50 was specified in the auction description and (2) the breakdown of the S&H was NOT.
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phbroz
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posted on October 24, 2000 05:45:08 PM
msstone....
Welcome to the "real world" via the internet. Same goes outside your door.
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krs
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posted on October 24, 2000 06:07:17 PM
msstone,
The point is not the dollar. It is the point of Shipping and Handling which is plainly posted in the TOS. This is about a buyer who gets a great deal and whines that they have to pay the $3.50 plainly stated in the TOS for shipping and handling.
So what did you want to discuss?
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sadie999
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posted on October 24, 2000 06:36:26 PM
msstone, I absolutely agree with you that it's obnoxious for a buyer to quibble over clearly stated TOS.
However, as to the way you figure your shipping costs, I think you're asking for resentment on the part of the buyer. If you walked into a store, and bought a $20 item, and the store added charges for 5-10 minutes of clerk's time, a few cents for the sales receipt, a few cents for the bag, and a surcharge on your parking space in the parking lot (after all they are paying property taxes on it), you'd resent that.
Doesn't it just make more sense to start your item at $3-4 and charge the actual postage and insurance? Yep, you'd have to pay more to eBay, but most buyers would feel stupid arguing over $1.50 postage.
JMO
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msstone
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posted on October 24, 2000 06:48:36 PM
Sadie 999 If you don't think that when you walk in to a store and pay $20 for an item that you pay for the things you are saying. You do not understand markup.
I will give you an example. I sold diamonds to jewelers in a major city. I sold a small diamond to a jeweler for 44 cents. He turned around and charged his customer $46.00.
That included his time to pick up the stone, to mount it, his cost for overhead, (Lighting showcases etc,) his employee's wage who had to set the stone, his cost of security to keep his store safe and the surcharges that he had to pay to the mall where his store was at.
This may have been before ebay which it was.
These are the costs of doing business that is figured into every item for sale in a store or any place else.
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twinsoft
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posted on October 24, 2000 06:55:44 PM
Glenda, I think the seller doesn't owe and shouldn't provide bidders with every little detail including how many cents the oversized bubble mailer costs. There is a limit to how "folksy" ads should appear and discussing costs is unprofessional. The seller sets the terms, and if they are plainly stated in the ad, the buyer has no reason to complain afterwards about "actual" postage.
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yougogirl2
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:23:34 PM
 YEAH!!! What twinsoft said!!
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twelvepole
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:28:23 PM
I will have to say $3.50 for s/h is not unreasonable, but:
As far as caring how much it cost for bubble wrap and "your" time. I could care less.
For your other point:
HOW MANY OF YOU BUYERS HAVE EVER GIVEN IT A MINUTES THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT GOES INTO PUTTING UP AN EBAY AUCTION from the sellers point of view. The time and expense? Thats the other point.
Nope I haven't given it a consideration and have no plans to start. Selling is your business, buying for the least amount is mine.
Ain't Life Grand... 
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dman3
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:31:29 PM
I really hate to differ with this reality check but !!!!!
typeing and standing in line at the Post office Are not really handleing charges.
tops in handleing charges on a $1 bid on a small peice of jewlery would be .50 for a good bubble mailer and you Dont insure dollar sales at all this low of a winning bid wouldnt exscatly break the bank.
keep in mind your hourly rate or pay check so to speak from you auctions and your listing and final value fees come out of your over all winning bid prices not out of Shipping and handleing.
the term fee avoidance is a good one for this case or use to be you see now if you accept billpoint or paypal all the extra fees above the winning bid you use to get away with free they catch you for when the buyer pays you in full with there credit card.
only point you are really showing us here with your list of fees is that starting bids under $6 listed on ebay can and will lose money if you want to break even or make a $1 in the event of one bid your start must be at least $6 .
this $6 would not only cover your listing gallery fee your FVF and your .25 for paypal but would pay for packageing shipping your .80 in time spent based on $5 per hour and you still make just over the $1.25 in profit you could say shipping is free have no handleing and no buyer would be put off by reading about a handleing charge the only fee it would incress a little would be FVF.
now if buyer really read listings and are concerned about sellers handleing fees and other stuff you here from buyers whos auction do you think they would bid on if we sold the Identical Items.
peice of jewlery yours starts at a $1 with $4.00 shipping and handleing .
mine with $6 starting bid free shipping no handleing and no charge for useing credit card . my ad will make me $1.50 after costs for listing yours make you $0 after costs for listing .
You decide there is your reality check .
WWW.dman-n-company.com
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Glenda
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:38:15 PM
twinsoft, I probably didn't make it obvious enough in my reply: I would not bid on the item if every little component of the S&H for this item was defined, but I don't have a problem paying that S&H amount.
[ edited by Glenda on Oct 24, 2000 07:39 PM ]
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reddeer
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:40:37 PM
It seemed obvious to me, Glenda.
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dman3
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:49:01 PM
BIgest point here is that when you list an item you must frist concider what your cost are for listing and sellin the the event of one bid includeing shipping and packageing nothing but nothing can be listed for $1 ever even listing one single tradeing card will cause cost over run at a $1 starting bid
if you think in these terms buyers will never again see shipping or handleing feed in your auction. a few people here allready stated it very well buyer Dont care about your cost at all or what mirical it took to list your item for sale they are buyer if its there and fair priced they will buy it simple.
WWW.dman-n-company.com
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madrona
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posted on October 24, 2000 07:52:08 PM
Just had to jump into the discussion...
As an infrequent seller, but mainly a buyer on eBay I have to agree that the buyer who was complaining about a clearly stated S/H charge is a cretin. The seller should have told him to get lost.
I fully understand overhead expenses in a business and don't expect the seller to give me the item for free (would be nice tho, but Mom doesn't sell on eBay). If I feel the S/H fees are too high for the item I want, I simply look for other auctions and compare prices. At the same time I check feedback, etc. and if the person with the higher charges checks out the best I will bid on his/her auction anyway. Honest fees do not bother me and under honest fees I include packing supplies.
Another thing, why would anyone want to include their packing costs in their starting fee? I mainly buy dolls on line and I expect to pay a decent price for the shipping because I expect the doll to be packed VERY WELL. If the bid description only shows postage (i.e. $3.20) I would probably not bid on it as I would assume the seller doesn't know how to properly pack.
I realize I could email the seller prior to closing, but frankly that is a pain. What amazes me are the number of sellers that don't address postage costs in their descriptions -- I just skip those sellers also.
Another point regarding PayPal. I only use it as a buyer, but as soon as I hit the limit they set I will abandon that avenue. They want me to verify myself....get real!!! My credit card company verified me 20 years ago and decided my credit was pretty good and we have had a "fun relationship" over the years. So if some unknown johnny come lately company like PP thinks I am going to give them my bank account number, well fat chance. I don't even know who those people are or where they are located and why they think that as a buyer I should give them financial info really makes me laugh. So to you sellers who are offering other alternatives, I give you a great big Thank You.
A million different ways to look at the same thing...guess that is why I enjoy reading at AW.
Judy
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