posted on October 26, 2000 05:58:07 PM new
I am curious about enforcement of copyright infringement as it pertains to live music bootlegs. I know of several band fan clubs/mailing lists et cetera where the act permits fans to record and trade live performances, with the tacit understanding that these are for trading or giving away to other fans (for instance, via tape trading or CD burning trees) and not for sale. In the case of one fan organization, people seen selling live recordings of the band on eBay are sometimes given a "talking to" by the heads of the club and may be threatened with exclusion from future trading trees. This is generally enough to stop the seller from doing it again, and reporting the seller to eBay is therefore unnecessary.
However, I was curious as to how one would deal with this situation if the seller refused to stop. The copyright owner (label or band) either does not care about VERO enforcement or does not have the resources to devote to VERO enforcement, so we are talking strictly about third-party enforcement by non-copyright owners.
I know many of you have strong opinions as to whether 3d parties should even be able to enforce copyrights, but that's not the point of my question for this hypothetical. What I want to know is the following:
1) If a 3rd party (such as a fan club president, or other eBay buyer or seller) reports sale of an infringing live bootleg, does eBay do anything? or will eBay refuse to shut down the auction till it hears from the copyright owner?
2) Does SafeHarbor ever release information about "who reported" to the seller, thereby exposing 3d parties who report a seller to possible retaliation?
3) Have any of you actually reported someone selling an infringing item where you weren't the copyright owner and knew or reasonably suspected that the other person was not the copyright owner either? If so, what procedures did you use to avoid retaliation, or did you care about that? And did eBay act?
Thanks for any info you can provide on this enforcement question.
________
I never had one, and I didn't want one, and I don't, so now I do...
posted on October 26, 2000 06:38:28 PM new
Because whereas the "buttinsky" actually went to the trouble and cost of purchasing authorized items, his competitor effectively stole the same items, making it possible for said competitor to undermine the legitimate seller's business by undercutting prices?
Seems like a good reason to me to finger your competition. Since the VERO infringer's already thrown out the rule book himself, if a competitor turns him in, it hardly behooves him to complain "Hey, no fair!"
[ edited by HartCottageQuilts on Oct 26, 2000 06:40 PM ]
posted on October 26, 2000 06:48:13 PM new
I'd add that there's another justification when it comes to live bootlegs. As I mentioned above, I know of bands who sanction taping as long as it's for trade or giveaway, and you can easily get a copy of the tape/CD whatever if you simply go to the web site, fan club, discussion board, and so forth and ask. Someone will hook you up for cheap or free. Therefore it's a little unfair when someone decides to take a CD that he got for free or trade and auction it off on eBay to some unsuspecting person.
However, like I said above, the issue of whether 3d parties should enforce, or to put it another way, "should the third party butt into another's business like that" does not interest me in the slightest. I'd rather this thread not turn into a morality discussion--I'm just interested in the practical realities of enforcement. If you'd like to discuss whether it constitutes "butting in" please start your own thread. Thanks.
________
I never had one, and I didn't want one, and I don't, so now I do...
posted on October 26, 2000 07:06:45 PM new1) If a 3rd party (such as a fan club president, or other eBay buyer or seller) reports sale of an infringing live bootleg, does eBay do anything? or will eBay refuse to shut down the auction till it hears from the copyright owner?
Oh, I really ought to just keep quite about this, since I know so little about it really. However --
I think the general feeling around the ebay community is that ebay's enforcement of anything (except perhaps email spam) is VERY uneven. With many things it seems to matter who picks up the email and what kinda mood they're in. But if it's against a PowerSeller, there seems to be a fairly strong pro-PowerSeller bias.
2) Does SafeHarbor ever release information about "who reported" to the seller, thereby exposing 3d parties who report a seller to possible retaliation?
It's my understanding that this is one thing they actually do right -- that is, they don't reveal sources.
3) Have any of you actually reported someone selling an infringing item where you weren't the copyright owner . . . (snip)
posted on October 26, 2000 07:14:29 PM new
At best, a third party might be unaware of the details of changes in copyright ownership. How could such a third party know that ownership of the copyright has not recently changed hands? It's just too easy to, um, be mistaken. Maybe mistaken on purpose.
The real way to do this is to make both sides accountable.
-Put up a pirate copy, have it proven, lose money to the rightful owner. Say $1000. Maybe that means you have to show financial responsibility to sell certain kinds of item.
-Accuse someone of putting up a pirate copy, have it proven that it's not a pirated copy, lose money to the seller. Say $1000. Maybe that means you have to show financial responsibility to make VERO type accusations. But hey, let anyone with a grand make an accusation.
So long as people can steal and avoid the consequences by hiding behind pauper status, and so long as lawyers can cause misery by making bad faith accusations of infringement, the two sides deserve whatever misery they can inflict upon each other.
posted on October 26, 2000 08:30:31 PM new
My personal feelings: If a seller has any integrity, they would not sell bootlegs because it is against ebay policy.
Bootlegs and promotionals are not allowed on ebay. My advise: stop waisting time on this issue and go out and find something to sell that is legal.
Kelly