posted on October 26, 2000 08:20:28 PM new
This week Ebay has had EXTENSIVE problems especially during prime time.
This isn't unfamiliar to us long time users.
The issue is that these problems are systemic to Ebay.
Imagine a hospital that has a very high rate of a particular disease. The staff is constantly working very hard to cure the disease. Buying new equipment. Consulting with suppliers. Expanding, spending lots of money, disinfecting everything over and over again. But the disease continues and will never be eradicated because the staff is the carrier of the disease.
I have been a S/W Engineer for 25 years. My professional opinion is that EBay's systemic problems are a result on general incompetence of the engineering staff.
Consider the evidence.
1)Regularly scheduled down times. Properly design software doesn't require maintenance. Other sites like Yahoo, Amazon, CNN, AOL and most others don't have scheduled down times.
2)Erratic performance. This is a symptom of software systems developed by hack's. This type of development is a result of trial an error engineering rather than rigorous engineering design and evaluation prior to release.
3)Problems every time there is an upgrade. Upgrades change the S/W environment. S/W that has not been rigorously analyzed prior to deployment will malfunction when any change is made. Poorly designed S/W has unpredictable performance, things that worked before no longer work, even though they might be unrelated to the change.
In the software world the are two classes of Engineers. Those with college degrees and those who are self taught. In general Degreed engineers are taught to be more rigorous in their practices. In the past there has been a sorta class system in engineer circles with Degreed and non-degreed engineers. With the professional engineers doing the fundamental development work, and non-degreed engineers doing the support work. However, now with the severe shortage of engineers, especially in Silicon Valley where Ebay is located, this distinction has largely evaporated. Organizations, I suspect Ebay, are often headed by non-degreed engineers. This generally results in an engineering culture that promotes trial and error engineering rather than rigorous system design. Spaghetti code is rampant. Making any change to the systems is a frightening task and can cause problems in totally unrelated areas.
posted on October 26, 2000 08:49:11 PM new
Operative Words: Properly design software doesn't require maintenance.
Problems every time there is an upgrade. Upgrades change the S/W environment. S/W that has not been rigorously analyzed prior to deployment will malfunction when any change is made. Poorly designed S/W has unpredictable performance, things that worked before no longer work, even though they might be unrelated to the change.
So you've got poorly designed software from the get go. Then cut and paste some more poorly written code into the already badly designed software, which exacerbates whatever is wrong in the first place, plus creates new conflicts.
At what point does it all fall in on itself and become one huge jumbled knot that can't be fixed?
posted on October 26, 2000 09:04:39 PM new
Looks like this person needs to HEAD EBAY
TROUBLESHOOTERS,,,we should all pitch in and
send him there..then maybe we'd get some bids,or even could check our auctions!
I AM SO TIRED OF! the board stating
thanks for your patience,,then the next
one says LOOK WHAT WE JUST ADDED...
yeah, never had yahoo have these problems,amazon either hmmmm
for that matter look at the amount of pics etc at auctionwatch,,they do a very good job.
Ebay needs to let loose of some of our listing money & HIRE A CRACKER-JACK TEAM TO FIX IT! hopefully before Christmas.this is really hurting people,can't beleive it's always just for 10 or 20 minutes,,no extensions(not that i want one)How does closing at 4pm on Monday compare to closing at 4 pm Sunday,,,everyone is at work!SEEMS THEY WOULD HAVE OFFERED "refunds,free re-lists"?SOMETHING...the arrogance is maddening..I'm glad this person posted..soooo
i see it's like repeatedly fixing a lemon car,,,wonderful GLAD YOU GUYS ARE HERE,thought it was just me!
pam Oregon
posted on October 26, 2000 10:05:46 PM new
unknown------WELL SAID!! I am a retired S/W H/W recruiter and even tho I couldn't write a bid of code....I spotted this from the get-go!
Their s/w engineers were NOT top of the line since nobody knew just where this thing would go. The result was a K-mart type of service. They band-aided it all along and when the bucks started rolling in - they perhaps could afford a better staff but it's doubtful that Silicon Valley guys were willing to hang in without solid contracts. I'm sure they have had their share of consultants but--that in itself is still a FIX-IT situation -- and appears it always will be , unless they totally trash this one and start all over again! Doubt they ever will.
Your observation of other like sites is correct. Yahoo has only malfunctioned ONCE in 2 years that I know of. Don't know about Amazon or others that are plagued with these problems.
There are only 2 reasons things could be this bad. 1-- poor s/w design/implementation
2-- this is a calculating manipulation of performance to double listing fees
See my posting here on AW--about ebay making mo money due to outages. I find it very strange, that they now call outages "unexpected maintenance"- Also strange is the fact they occur in peak time - ALWAYS under the 2 hour hard outage , which could force relisting of unsold items. This is clearly to avoid refunds.
posted on October 26, 2000 11:12:45 PM new
So nice to read messages from people that really get it!
PLEASE check out thread i posted
went to CNET,,interesting little article there you would enjoy,,,
says it may last 7-10 more days..WHY # 1
WOULD THEY FOOL WITH THIS STUFF NOW,IT'S OUR HOLIDAY SEASON RIGHT NOW.!!..10 days more & we will be so far behind...many people don't even list after 12-15 because of shipping concers,takes time for xmas delivery..
UPGRADE,,,SOUNDS LIKE AN EXCUSE...FOR A SITE DISINTIGRATING UNDER THE STRESS..
you'll love the quote about them not needing the tech cause they are at 99% haha
LIKE TO ASK YOU did it ever make sense to do the search update on THURSDAY EVE/FRI AM & MAINTENANCE & ALWAYS ANNOUNCE UPDATE WILL BE BEHIND TILL SUNDAY???DURING PRIME TIME...
last week i had revised an auction from books non-fiction to TOTALLY WEIRD,,no hits,,after a few days i put it in general books,,,this was a new one, i check my sellers list & where my title should be it says
TOTALLY WEIRD UNAVAILABLE..& it happened again 5 days later..COME ON,,,I KNEW SOMETHING WAS SERIOUSLY WRONG RIGHT THEN..
SO I HAPPILY AM UPDATING & A WEEK LATER GUESS WHAT THEY DIDN'T DO IT..RIGHT??i wonder if this is not an upgrade but a meltdown,,,eek
thanks for listening,pam
posted on October 27, 2000 07:15:47 AM new
My opinion is that the ONLY permanent cure is a from scratch new development using a separate team. A "clean room" approach would be best. i.e. No communication whatsoever, thus no infection of bad processes or ideas. The existing site could continue as it is, while the parallel effort is launched for the new site. It would also be best to have the new team working in a different location, as far away as possible. Perhaps Boston, Wash DC area, or the tech belt in Florida. All these areas have large numbers of qualified personnel. It would also be a good idea to keep it a secret until complete, as not to demoralize the existing team, since they would all eventually be out of a job. But it would take a long time, perhaps 1 year, and cost perhaps $10 million.
They will need vision, and guts to launch this.
Does Meg have the Vision? No. She's not been in the S/W developemnt business.
Does her chief S/W persaon have the Vision? No. He/She IS the problem.
Does the borad of directors have the vision? Perhpas, thats our only hope.
posted on October 27, 2000 09:38:34 AM new
I have been in the IT field for a few years and had no problem spotting the bovine factor on eBay's front. The problem is that any upgrade is treacherous, eBay has grown way too fast, and they can get away with murder until a class-action lawsuit puts them on notice. Only the bidders seem willing to do that--the sellers are supine in their behavior towards eBay.
posted on October 27, 2000 10:55:22 AM new
It's also generally well known that one should not continue adding features when many of the existing features are full of bugs. The new features will only just make it harder to find the existing bugs, and the greater overall complexity will only make more bugs -- and the existing ones more severe as well (i.e. it's just all-around bad).
It sometimes seems eBay is building a structure on quicksand, and then when it is sinking under its own weight, deciding they have to shore it up by building more onto the structure.
Yes, some of the problems do seem very deep rooted, beyond "just" bugs to major systemic flaws. "Scheduled" downtime alone speaks to that, but the unscheduled crashes, partial or whole, only makes the picture seem worse.
It takes money to revamp the roots of a system, because this usually involves a major overwrite; but yes, this could be done (mostly) on the side, without tampering with the existing system until ready.
There is also such a concept as "freezing" the existing platform, meaning that there comes a point when new things should only be added to the newly developing system while the existing release stays frozen for awhile. It is often not entirely possible to completely freeze the current system, but no matter what, it is a good idea to pick a point to slow down the movement of the existing system so that the new one can catch up and overtake it.
The scope of software project risk assessment is really more complex than this, but those are some fairly fundamental concepts from it, I believe.
BTW, it's possible eBay *does* have a good IS staff but that they are forced to do things contrary to what most of us would consider good judgement. Some of them may very well be desperate to rewrite the system. The wrong manager(s) can hold IS back from what it is able to do (not that IS should being given totally free rein by any means, either, however). I can't tell whether that's true of eBay. It certainly does look like they (whoever is making the decisions on how to work the software) are not doing the right thing.
Interesting question, though. With all the downtimes and a degree of bad press, eBay now has to speak to "bigger fish," such as Disney and other partners. Wonder how they feel about these system problems?
(Of course, it is the Disney section and eBay Motors, the JavaScript, DoubleClick code, cookies, etc., and all these other things that are ADDING to the complexity, and taking away from the time they dedicate to fixing and/or possibly rewriting the underlying system? )
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on October 27, 2000 01:55:41 PM new
YEs I agree that there is a high likelyhood that the root of the problem is at the top. However, incompetents tend to hire incompetents.
posted on October 28, 2000 02:37:15 PM new
I suspect that if Ebay get seriously tied in with a digger fish, that the S/W problem at ebay may get solved.
posted on October 31, 2000 07:36:09 AM new
I meant to say "Bigger Fish" i.e. if they becane partnets with a larger company with a professional S/W development department.
