posted on October 29, 2000 04:49:19 PM
Hi everyone - I picked this up at a local auction last night. The seller gave me a wild story about what it was (at least I *think* it's a wild story). Anyway, it's obviously old, I think it's made of brass, has a leather strap and the metal has tarnished (turned green) inside. (I tried to show this in the lid in the third picture.)
posted on October 29, 2000 05:19:28 PM
I don't know what it is but some African cultures go back for many, many centuries. Many of them were very accomplished in metal crafts and also their understanding of astrological matters was very profound.
There are thirteen rings on the bottom of the container. I'm wondering if these either represent the phases of the moon or on a different tangent could they have a connection with a womans ovulation cycle?
Bob, Downunder but never down.
posted on October 29, 2000 05:20:13 PM
codpiece is the previous name. yeah, that'd work. depending upon how big it is. in cases of a codpiece, size does matter. if it ain't big enough .....
i also thought of some sort of decorative epulatte. in which case, you'd need two.
or, as my mind progresses, fancy bra cups. see my other two suggestions and combine them!
posted on October 29, 2000 05:44:28 PM
First of all, thank you bitsandbobs for posting the pictures. Duh!!
This is what I've been thinking...
It's obviously old and obviously used to carry something - I'm guessing a liquid just because of the shape. I think it was used in some sort of ritual - both because of the decorations and the fact that it wouldn't be practical to carry while hunting (too heavy). When I say it's 'turned green' inside, it's not just that the metal is green - it's like what you find on old coins found in the ocean - 'encrusted' might be the word I'm looking for. There are a couple of pinholes near the bottom where the metal has worn through. The walls are pretty thick overall but the thickness is uneven - it's thinner in spots and it doesn't look like it's just worn off - looks like the metal was made that way.
Should I get it appraised? If so, any suggestions?
posted on October 29, 2000 07:46:05 PM
This may be a Herbal/Medicine bag carried around by a dr (medicine dr/herbalist depending on the area). If it is brass it may not be really old but it could be during the 1900-1950 era. Also please be advised that imports from Africa have been slyly aged....masks, metal, and even clothing have been known to be placed in fabric, wood box and then placed in the ground (sometimes within nothing) for anywhere up to a year or more. A museum employee told me this once...he said it gives it that "dirt/old smell". Also being in the ground can age things quickly. I dont think your piece is part of what I explained just thought I would add those ramblings. Have it appraised (Tell the appraiser it is for insurance purposes so they dont get any quick ideas of giving you a low price and trying to buy it themselves. Tell them it was given to you by a friend and want to make sure if it should have insurance.) and then ask them to tell you what the beads on the bottom are. I have seen beads like these made out of bone and teeth (human and animal) stone, petrified "poop" and wood. This can make a drastic difference. Just one more rambling.....during the Victorian period when it was all the rage to visit Egypt and the Pyramids a very special PAPER was made. Bet ya dont know what it was made from? During excavation from the Pyramids and surounding areas hundreds of thousands of mummies were exumed. They didnt know what to do with them so they made paper. They also sold them ground up for ground fertilizer. It was stopped when locals protested for religious reasons. The paper was adored by Victorians when they visited and bought them to bring back as gifts for friends....however, they didnt know what they were really made of. OK OK Im off FOR NOW!
posted on October 29, 2000 08:59:05 PM
Your widget has the same thin discs on it that a necklace I recently bought at an estate auction. The info I've discovered so far indicates that the necklace is African and could have been made as late as the 1970's. Pieces such as the necklace tend to look older than they are even if they're not intentionally aged, because they are frequently worn into rivers, mud, etc. Indeed, this one has mud encrusted inside the groove of the long metal pieces that hang from the necklace. There has been a tourist market in Africa for decades and decades.
posted on October 30, 2000 06:07:45 PM
Ok, here's what I've found out so far. I searched the net and came up with the address of a person with an 'African Antique' shop. I e-mailed him, humbly asked for his opinion and enclosed two photos. He was gracious enough to respond. Here's excerpts from his reply....
"I am not sure exactly what it is. I
believe that you are right, it looks like an old container from West Africa,
possibly Ashanti. The Leather strap is obviously a newer replacement. The
inside shows the corrosion that happens to old bronze especially when it has
been near something moist. The outside would have been kept cleaner by being
touched and rubbing against things. The container is quite elaborate with the
finely worked bronze decorations on the surface. It feels like an object
which would have come from earlier this century, but I cannot exactly place
it. Hope this helps."
(I thought it was exceptionally nice of him to respond.)
In my email, I had stated that (I guessed) it was 'brass' - he says 'bronze' twice. Anyone know how to tell the difference?
Ok, here's the 'wild story' I got. Supposedly this was used in African death rituals. The newly-dead person's blood was drained and stored in this for awhile until the actual death ceremonies took place.
I know exactly zip about african death rituals and couldn't find anything on the web. Checked out museums (including the Smithsonian) and couldn't find anything remotely like it.
Hmmm, I guess an appraisal is the next step. Anyone have any recommendations?
posted on October 30, 2000 06:44:35 PM
first...yucky! ='s the "mummy" paper I talked about above! (But I guess I shouldnt talk... I have a mule led lamp set for the living room and a alligator that holds a piece of glass for a very low table from Austrailia.)
If you live in an area where you have a museum (of quality) ask repetitively (and you will have to usually) to speak with the curator of similar items they are exibiting. I have done this a couple of times and both after work to talk to them were very "delighted and excited" to see what I had brought them. They both looked as if they were five and have just enetered a candy or toy shop for the first time. They talked and told me so much more then I wanted to know but it was quite interesting. The one even went as far as copying about fifty pages for me and highlighting specifics. He asked that the one item be allowed to be placed in a temporary exhibit even though it was small as he had never seen one this detailed and wanted very much to have it for the display. It was a tusk from an elephant that had been carved into a "chain" that was carved to interlock (but it was a 16 car train). (Before anyone jumps on this..please know I had papers from the National Wildlife Federation to prove it was legel to posess as it was a captive elephant which had passed normally.)
This I think would be an even better catch. They may even offer you a pretty penny for it or know of a museum who would seening it is such an "oddball" type of thing. (Please dont take offense to this as; like I said; I have a house full of it. You should see peoples faces...they must think I am a warlock or Satanist or something.
posted on October 31, 2000 12:40:49 AM
What are the measurements? It doesn't look big enough to hold the blood from a person. How much blood does the human body have? Is it 4 quarts or 8 quarts? Either seems more than the container would hold.
posted on October 31, 2000 02:31:23 AMkellyb1 - You're right - this is nowhere near big enough to hold *all* the blood in a human body. Again, this was the story they gave me - I have no idea if it's true (although I have my doubts).
The measurement of the metal container itself with the lid is 8.5 inches. This doesn't count the 'beads' or leather loop.
Anyway, this is getting more and more interesting. Will definitely have to check this out some more. Any additional suggestions/comments would be appreciated.
