posted on October 29, 2000 09:17:22 PM new
Here is the situation:
I put a bid in with a high proxy, and was outbid by someone else's proxy instantaneously (this bidder was not in the bid history before this happened and s/he appeared out of nowhere, even though their proxy was made three hours before I placed my bid).
So, since I was not willing to go any higher on this auction, I researched Ebay and found the same item somewhere else. Therefore I placed a bid a few minutes later on this item, which I was lucky enough to win.
Imagine my surprise after returning home to find out that I was the winning bidder on the first auction (the one that I was outbid on). The reason for this was that the high bidder's bid was cancelled by the seller one hour after the bid was made; yet there was still one hour remaining in the auction. The bid cancellation reason was "Email this bidder, but no return mail..I don't think this person is serious.."
What I do not understand is why the seller contacted the bidder one hour before the end of the auction and decides that s/he is not a serious bidder and then cancelled the bid?
Now, I am on the hook for this auction? I do not need two of the same item. What should I do? Is this an example of shill bidding?
posted on October 29, 2000 09:27:59 PM new
Refuse to complete the transaction.
Explain that there were bidding irregularities.
It does sound like shilling, but there is likely no hard proof.
At the very least, your limit was exposed in appropriately, making you vulnerable to a subsequent shill bid.
Look over the auction a bit more closely. If a bid came in after the cancelled bid, and the last bid substantially maxed out your limit, that's a strong suggestion of shilling.
posted on October 29, 2000 09:30:27 PM new
I wouldn't think you are obligated to make the purchase if the seller cancelled the higher bid. I guess this would be similar to a NPB and "offering" the item to lower bidders, but they are not obligated to buy.
The main problem with obligating you is that when you placed your bid you were informed that you were not the winner, so there was no accord on the "purchase", and as would happen, you relied on this information and purchased another item.
posted on October 29, 2000 09:38:14 PM new
Hi sg52:
I placed my bid at 16:03, and was outbid immediately by this bidder out of nowhere. This bid was cancelled at 17:01. At 17:44 and 18:03 a bidder (with 0 feedback and shades) brought my proxy to its max. Auction ended at 18:06. Is this shill bidding? If yes, what do I do.
The auction in question is a fairly popular item right now, and were they trying to artificially increase the selling price?
Also, I won two other auctions from this seller around this same time, and I could not detect any evidence that my bid was "artificially" increased. What do I do with these auctions??
posted on October 29, 2000 09:48:05 PM new
Does the seller have other closed auctions where they canceled bids? If you can show such a pattern you'd have something to offer SafeHarbor.
posted on October 29, 2000 09:50:27 PM new
rxo: What was the feedback of the other bidder on the first auction? Did the seller say anything in their auction that they would contact zero or negitive feedback bidders? (I've seen sellers with that in their TOS's other just do it without having it in the TOS).
I've had a situation where the high bidder had a bad (-3) feedback record for not contacting the seller after the auction. I emailed the bidder telling them, because of their feedback, that I required an answer from them (actually, I was a bit nicer I said something about making sure our emails were compatable). Anyway, the guy didn't answer back so I canceled his bid saying something like: "Cannot contact bidder via email"
I did contact the newest high bidder to give them a 'heads up' that they were again the highest bidder.
Last I checked, you are responsible for your high bid even if the first highest bidder retracts (that is why you should only bid on one of the same item at a time if you only want one of that item).
posted on October 29, 2000 10:08:23 PM new
While this does sound like shill bidding, I wanted to point out that a seller has the right to cancel a bid on their auction. It does have to be a good reason according to ebay. A seller can contact the high bidder even if they don't state it in the TOS before an auction ends and if they can't verify the bidder they can cancel the bid.
The new high bidder will be legally responsible to complete the transaction after the auction ends. If the high bidder can prove that they became high bidder due to shill bidding, they won't have to complete the auction, since shill bidding is fraud and against the law in most states.
I have cancelled bids, but I don't do it in the last hour. If I have a bidder with a negative feedback (ex -1)I will try to contact the bidder and cancel the bid if necessary.
Many ebay people, myself included, will not bid against a person with a -1 feedback profile.
posted on October 29, 2000 10:13:12 PM new
There is nothing in this seller's TOS about cancelling bids. I found another auction by this seller where a bidder (had negative feedback) was cancelled and the same bidder that brought up my proxy appeared in this auction and brought up the proxy of the winning bidder.
I checked this bidder's history (registered October 28, 2000), and they are in a lot of auctions, but they have not won one auction as of yet.
By the way, the seller (has shades) and registered with ebay October 24, 2000.
Is this all a coincidence and am I being paranoid, or is there something wrong here??
posted on October 29, 2000 11:30:05 PM newrxo120: Has this bidder bid on many auctions from just one seller (you can see that in the Bidder Search)?
You said the bidder came out of nowhere and outbid you - but their proxy was 3 hours earlier? (That sounds more like they had bid before you, and the proxy system kicked in when you bid and raised their bid by one increment, not that they came out of nowhere.)
You said that their bid was cancelled at 17:01 and then they rebid? Is this when the seller cancelled the bid?
Were the bids at 17:44 and 18:03 a different bidder than this one?
posted on October 29, 2000 11:44:23 PM new
Glenda,
this bidder was cancelled and did not put another bid in. Another bidder came in twice and found out my proxy that way. I found the same bidder in quite a few of the sellers auctions (coincidence?), but like I mentioned earlier s/he has not won a single auction so far. I just wonder why would a seller contact a bidder (even with 0 feedback - we all started that way) and because of no reply cancel the bid? (Hey, could be any reason, I am not at the computer all the time either, I even put in bids, left and checked up on them later - like I did today!)
posted on October 29, 2000 11:54:13 PM newI just wonder why would a seller contact a bidder (even with 0 feedback - we all started that way) and because of no reply cancel the bid?
Sellers sometimes do this with high-priced items. Too, some sellers just plain don't like to deal with 0-feedback bidders.
Write to [email protected] with the bidder's id and the auction number - they can go investigate and do something about it if something needs to be done.
posted on October 30, 2000 11:18:51 AM newThis bid was cancelled at 17:01. At 17:44 and 18:03 a bidder (with 0 feedback and shades) brought my proxy to its max. Auction ended at 18:06. Is this shill bidding?
As clear as can be.
If yes, what do I do.
Advise the seller that you are not intending to complete the auction due to bidding irregularities.
If seller drops it, just drop it.
If seller persists, accuse shill bidding to safeharbor. Your proxy was exposed, then maxed out.
(Well, that's what I would do anyway).
You've observed the scam. You have absolutely no obligation to proceed into a scam.
I contacted the seller and told him because I was outbid in his auction that I got this item somewhere else and therefore do not need his item anymore and if he could offer it to the next bidder (but I guess that was the person that exposed my proxy), but that I would still take the other two items I also won the same day. Seller did not respond to this, instead I got his Confirmationletter about having won 3 of his auctions. I sent him my first letter again and I am still waiting for an answer. So far I have not mentioned "Shill bidding".
I did but a request into safeharbor (yesterday)to look into this situation, I have to wait and see what they got to say.
I follow up what happens here on this board quite frequently and once in a while even put in my 2 cents; I read about shill bidding. I am a very honest person and always treat my buyers/sellers with the most respect and also give them the benefit of the doubt. Now that I actually seem to be cheated just gives me the creeps.
[ edited by rxo120 on Oct 30, 2000 11:42 AM ]
posted on October 30, 2000 11:41:30 AM newsg52: This bid was cancelled at 17:01. At 17:44 and 18:03 a bidder (with 0 feedback and shades) brought my proxy to its max. Auction ended at 18:06. Is this shill bidding?
And if the person who had outbid rxo120 had a feedback of 500 and no shades, would it have still been shilling? Or would it have been the actions of somebody who wanted the item enough to bid twice, but stopped when they figured the item wasn't worth any more?
posted on October 30, 2000 11:48:43 AM new
Glenda,
the person that exposed my proxy was just 2cent lower than me, and it was obvious to see that that was my proxy. If they really would have wanted it that bad another 50 cents would have done the trick. Like I mentioned before, I saw this person in quite a lot of auctions, one situation even similar to mine, but this person has not won a single auction as of yet.
Do you think I am just paranoid?
posted on October 30, 2000 11:56:58 AM newAnd if the person who had outbid rxo120 had a feedback of 500 and no shades, would it have still been shilling?
This isn't a court of law, and we're not putting anyone in jail.
Rather, the goal is to avoid a scam.
If it looks like a duck, ...
This one quacks loud and clear.
If the circumstances were different, it might not quack. Indeed, shill bidders seldom have a track record, and even more seldom can be tracked down.
posted on October 30, 2000 05:55:35 PM new
Glenda,
the person that exposed my proxy was just 2cent lower than me, and it was obvious to see that that was my proxy. If they really would have wanted it that bad another 50 cents would have done the trick. Like I mentioned before, I saw this person in quite a lot of auctions, one situation even similar to mine, but this person has not won a single auction as of yet.
Do you think I am just paranoid?
posted on October 30, 2000 06:15:36 PM newrxo120: If I follow this, you were Bidder 2; Bidder 1 had bid before you, then rebid to your max. Then seller cancelled Bidder 1's bid (so seller now knew what your max was). Forty-five minutes later, Bidder 3 comes along and bids twice, shopping just 2 cents short of your proxy.
It will be interesting to hear what SafeHarbor finds.
1) I (bidder #2) went into auction with proxy, and my proxy was immediately outbid by bidder #1.
2) Seller cancels bidder #1's bid an hour later.
3) Bidder #3 comes ins and bids me to my proxy.
Bidder #1 was not shown in the bid history when I placed my bid.
Update: The seller replied to my email, and they will not hold me to this auction. They will file for credit from ebay to get their fees back. They did not even try to hold me to this auction. The seller told me that they contacted bidder #3 (who drove me to my proxy), and they were told by this bidder that they had purchased this item somewhere else. Again, my research shows that bidder #3 has not one a single auction yet, let alone this item.
Since they are not holding me to this auction, I will not push this issue with the seller.
We also heard from Safeharbout, and there reply was "Thank you for contacting us with this information. I can certainly
understand your concern.
After researching the information you provided, I am unable to find that
either of these members have violated any eBay rules.
The seller of an auction may email a bidder if they feel they may not
follow through on their winning bid and they may also cancel their bid
for that reason.
If you decide that you do not want to purchase the item that was won
after the cancellation of the bid, you may email the seller, explaining
the situation or you may want to request the sellers contact information
and give them a telephone call to see if the situation can be resolved
amicably."
I just hope that the seller does not neg me for this auction. We will have to wait and see.
Thanks for all of your input and suggestions.
kellyb1: Now, to avoid this in the future, do I have to retract all of my bids as soon as I am overbid just in case a seller decides to cancel someone's bid? Just a thought.
posted on October 30, 2000 08:07:19 PM new
You raise a good point. If outbid on an item should one retract previous bids to prevent being scammed---or even just to free oneself to bid in other aucitons? If this became widespread it would pull final bid prices down considerably
posted on October 30, 2000 08:31:53 PM new
The problem with retracting your bid on the off-chance that the seller will cancel the bid of the higher bidder, is that the retraction will show on your feedback record. If you do it often, it will look as though you are a chronic bid retractor (people won't be able to tell that you are retracting your "underbid". Chronic bid retraction is not viewed favorably by sellers. In fact, people with "a lot" or "a trend" of bid retractions can be reported to SafeHarbor, with the result of a warning and possible eventual suspension.
. Chronic bid retraction is not viewed favorably by sellers. In fact, people with "a lot" or "a trend" of bid retractions can be reported to SafeHarbor, with the result of a warning and possible eventual suspension.