posted on October 31, 2000 11:31:33 PM new
OK, What I'm about to post definitely falls into the category of "sweating the small stuff" which I hate to do, but I'm just THAT irritated....
I won a $10.00 item and all together ended up paying $16.25 for the item, s&h, & insurance. I normally choose to take my chances on a $10.00 item but the seller INSISTED on insurance. Upon recieving my item (It was a bowl) I opened up the box, which was securely packaged- to the point that I had a hard time getting into the box even. Well, when I finally got in, I found that the bowl was broken. I inspected it closely & I believe that it had been broken, shoddily repaired, and then shipped to me- and the repair was too fragile to withstand shipping. There is even some dried glue by the damaged place as evidence that this occured.
Of course when I contacted the seller, she insisted that the bowl wasn't broken before she shipped it and that I should collect the insurance.
I am totally annoyed about this! First of all I won't get my entire $16.25 back if I do collect the insurance, I'll only get $10. Second, it's a hassle- plus I still have to find another bowl (and I won't be finding one on Ebay, trust me! I've learned the hard way not to mess with breakables!) Third, I'm not even entirely convinced that the post office should be responsible for this- I guess it's a gray area since the seller DID package carefully. (What do you guys think?) Fourth, the seller SHOULD have mentioned that the bowl was damaged, then repaired, in the ad!
What feedback would you leave for this seller if you were in my shoes?
posted on November 1, 2000 01:03:47 AM new
If you're ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE there's glue on the bowl where it had been broken before, I would demand a full refund from the seller and only return the bowl if you receive return postage costs as well (or you could be out that cost, too). If you take it to the Post Office and they determine it was broken BEFORE shipping, they won't give you a dime.
It's cases like this that make USPS insurance so high (and going higher next year).
posted on November 1, 2000 01:48:58 AM new
Well, the bowl is made of unvarnished wood, and there's a shiny spot a little less than the size of a quarter by the base of the bowl. (It's a wooden bowl that was on a pedestal, but the bowl and the pedestal are now separated into 2 different pieces). If the shiny spot isn't glue, I don't know what it is, or why it would be in the exact same spot that is now broken. suspicious, huh?
posted on November 1, 2000 02:03:01 AM new
As an aside, I think that in the future I will refuse to bid on any auction where the seller INSISTS on insurance.
I won another auction where my doll arrived damaged and the seller insisted that I collect the insurance. It was obvious to me that poor packaging caused the damage to the doll, so there was no way I was taking her to the P.O. I demanded a full refund but the seller was only going to refund me my bid price MINUS Ebay fees, and not including shipping either way. And THAT offer only came about after 2 days of me badgering him by email. What a joke!
It has become clear to me that the only thing insurance is really good for is giving the seller an "out". As in, "Don't bug me about it, just go collect your insurance".
Insurance doesn't protect me, the buyer- it only protects the seller. Guess what folks- I'm not bidding on any more auctions that REQUIRE USPS insurance. It isn't worth my 85¢ to give the seller an excuse to pack my item poorly or send a damaged/repaired item to me.
posted on November 1, 2000 02:14:37 AM new
macandjan- it is possible that the seller never saw the repair, if she didn't inspect the bowl carefully when writing the description.
It only seems so suspicious to me because the seller INSISTED on insurance for a $10.00 item. To me, insurance on a $10.00 item is generally not worth it and I would prefer to decline. If a seller doesn't allow me to decline insurance on an inexpensive item, what kind of conclusion am I going to draw from that later when the item arrives damaged?
posted on November 1, 2000 03:42:59 AM new
This is not an easy call. Look at the seller's feedback - is she new? Does she require insurance on *all* her sales? (I know a couple of sellers who insist on insurance for everything because they've gotten burnt once or twice.) If she requires it on *everything*, then it's unlikely that this was a deliberate 'ahh, this is broken, so sell w/ insurance and scam the buyer'.
Check her other feedback - does it look suspicious? Are there other negatives/neutrals for similar reasons?
Also, I work/repair wood (furniture) quite a bit. If you use the correct glue, the glue will be stronger than the wood surrounding it. In fact, good old Elmer's glue works great for many wood repair jobs.
How hard would it be to repair? Yes, if it had been broken previously, the seller should have told you but maybe she just didn't see it. Can you fix it yourself? If so, just do it - it's not worth getting too upset over sixteen dollars.
posted on November 1, 2000 04:15:11 AM new
Irregardless of the possible repair and other questions, a professional seller would refund your money and file for the insurance so that the money is sent to her.
Why should YOU wait 4 weeks or so to be reimbursed? I'd ask for a full refund and assure her that you will do your part in documenting the claim so that she can get a refund.
posted on November 1, 2000 04:46:41 AM new
Insurance is mandatory in all of my auctions, no matter how much the auction ended at. I don't give the buyer a choice either and it is stated in my terms that way. It doesn't mean I am an unscrupulous dealer, just cautious and well versed on how UPS & USPS handle parcels. It is for my protection and the buyer's.
I have read numerous reports about supposed "lost packages", "damaged items", etc. for items that were NOT insured. Sellers in their attempt to give good customer service are paying Buyers for these claims and could have offset those costs by having insurance. Insurance also reduces some of those fictitious claims that the package never arrived.
What I am trying to say is, don't pass by auctions of sellers who insist on insurance. We are not ALL trying to screw you.
posted on November 1, 2000 05:49:49 AM new
May I whine a bit? It's beginning to seem like we sellers can't win. We offer "optional" insurance and ship at the buyer's risk, and we're still expected to refund if the item is damaged in shipping. We require insurance and it's evidence that our merchandise is shoddy and we're expecting the USPS to pick up the tab. Furthermore, we're expected to deal with the insurance claim and refund the money up front. Sounds to me like there's no such thing as a seller's TOS. Only the ones set by buyers AFTER the auction ends.
always pickersangel everywhere
posted on November 1, 2000 06:24:51 AM new
pickersangel- as a seller, I not only give the buyer the option to insure or not, I offer a guarantee on my merchandise. If the customer feels it is misrepresented or it does not live up to his/her expectations, (s)he can return it to me at my expense. So even if the buyer waives insurance, (s)he can still return the item. So far, my satisfaction level is 100% and my return level is 0%. I attribute this to the fact that I go over my merchandise with a fine-toothed comb before listing.
I understand that not everyone does business the way I do. However, since most of my purchases are in the $5-$50 range, it is my choice as the buyer to pass on auctions with TOS that require insurance, which I will do from now on. I also plan to pass on auctions involving anything remotely fragile or breakable. This too is my choice. Yes, you are allowed your TOS, but I am allowed to choose what auctions I bid on. And it seems that I also won't be bidding on much of anything that isn't cloth, vinyl, or reading material from here on out. (Unless it's from a seller I've successfully dealt with before.)
Barbarake- I bought the bowl because I want to mosaic it for a Christmas gift, so I won't be able to repair it satisfactorily- it needs to be strong enough to support the mosaic. Even so, I wouldn't dream of giving anything that had been repaired as a gift. It's more the time involved that bugs me- October is gone and Christmas is looming- I'd planned to already be finished this project by now!
If I remember correctly her feedback is generally good. Nothing aroused any suspicion at the time of my bid anyway.
posted on November 1, 2000 06:28:24 AM new
macandjan- I wouldn't hesitate to do business with you because I know you stand behind your merchandise. (In fact previous posts of yours & other sellers' here in this forum are the reason I now offer my guarantee.)
I don't know a lot about tools, but I am looking for one that would cut a circle shape out of tile. Do you have anything like that?
posted on November 1, 2000 07:00:19 AM new
On having the seller file the insurance claim: the damaged item and all wrapping/packing material must be taken to the post office when the claim is made, so in order for the seller to do it, the item would have to be mailed back (at more expense) to her.
posted on November 1, 2000 07:10:11 AM new
I'm not really trying to debate whether or not to send the stuff back to the seller & have her deal with the insurance. I agree that it definitely wouldn't be worth the expense, especially since it is possible that this claim could be denied.
posted on November 1, 2000 07:12:48 AM new
I'm one of those sellers who doesn't give my buyers a choice on insurance -- yes, even for a $2.50 item. We pack very well and haven't had any claims yet.
But I no longer use USPS insurance, which I loathe for precisely the reason specified -- you only get your bid amount back. It isn't much protection, especially when what you buy weighs a lot.
I now use U-PIC, which covers not just the bid amount but also the shipping and insurance fees. THey also cover partial claims (unlike uSPS)and don't require that the package and all contents be surrendered. Claims are easier to file.
IOW, everything we all despise about USPS U-PIC does right.
posted on November 1, 2000 07:30:44 AM new
OK, upon further pondering, I think I may have happened upon an interesting insight. I as a buyer have a problem with TOS that completely ignore the fact that a seller is human & can screw up.
Let's use Pickersangel's TOS as an example for a sec. Those of you sellers who offer optional insurance & ship everything at the buyer's risk, I'd like to ask you what happens when a customer of yours buys insurance but still gets an item that was damaged in transit, and the post office declares that the packaging was inadequate?
Or the customer gets an item that has a flaw you somehow overlooked?
Maybe you think those things wouldn't happen to you but it's twice now that I've been annoyed by sellers who obviously thought the same thing (or maybe didn't care.)
Anyway, if I've been annoyed by these things I'm willing to bet that there are others out there who have been also. It hurts us as sellers in the long run because any customer who gets disillusioned with Ebay and quits buying is a potential customer that we other sellers have just lost.
posted on November 1, 2000 07:34:22 AM new
clevergirl-
I remember sometime in the murky distant past having read posts about U-Pic, but when I actually went to their site I thought I remembered reading something about having to have a 2 year claims history, yadda, yadda, yadda....
was it hard to get started with U-Pic? What kind of paper trail do you have to give them?
It definitely sounds like it would be worth it for me to check into them. Thanks for the info.
posted on November 1, 2000 07:59:03 AM new
I suspect that the seller doesn't want to deal with an item when they insist on insurance. If the seller doesn't give you back at least the $10 for the item, I'd file a fraud report. I realize this is a pain, but that's the right approach.
Sellers have to be prepared to take it on the chin once in awhile and this is one of them. If the seller isn't willing, fraud report plus neg.
posted on November 1, 2000 08:31:08 AM new
I am not familiar with wooden pedestal bowls so I have to ask how the two pieces are originally supposed to be joined? Or is it carved from one piece of wood. Is the glue residue really evidence of fraud?
I also require insurance on most of my items, mainly to protect against lost packages, although I do sell breakables. I've never had a claim so I am not sure how I would handle it. It never occured to me that this would be suspect.
posted on November 1, 2000 08:37:21 AM new
I think this is a simple one.
Once you know you arnt getting a refund or satisfaction (even if the bowl was NOT broken before shipping)
leave a negative stating the facts.
Unless you are worried about getting a negative yourself.............Then
Just take the "easy" way out and leave none or leave and "un deserved" positive.
This topic bugs me allot so I hope no one is offended but if folks don't leave honest feedback (good or bad) The eBay FB system will just be a worthless measure of what?
posted on November 1, 2000 09:13:22 AM new
Unless the bowl was turned on a lathe from one piece of wood or hand carved from a single piece of wood, it was more than likely made in parts and glued together. Glue is a standard tool in the woodworkers trade. Most wood products, including furniture, that require the joining of two pieces, use glue as part of the joining process. Old glue that has loosened is normally why chairs become wobbly. On items that get little stress, glue is the only item used to make a joint.
Your bowl was more than likely just glued together. The evidence of glue you found did not prove the item had been repaired. The more likely conclusion, if the spot of glue could be seen when the two parts are joined together, is that it was stray glue that was not removed during the manufacturing process. If it cannot be seen when the two pieces are in their correct positions, then it was made that way.
If you send the item back for the seller to file the claim you have voided the insurance. The recipient is the one who has to file a damage claim as they have the original packing materials.
To refuse to file an insurance claim relieves the seller from any responsibility to reimburse you. If you then file a fraud claim it will more than likely be denied as you, the buyer, were refusing to follow the means open to you to solve the problem.
If the post office were to say the package had been improperly packaged then you have the right to demand the seller make good, as the reason it broke could be attributed to his negligence.
As for feedback...the seller deserves nothing less than a positive. He packed well, you have no proof the item was misrepresented, and he was conscientious enough to insure the packgage in order to mitigate any monetary damage to you if the item was broken in transit.
posted on November 1, 2000 02:14:17 PM new
First of all, you need to take the original shipping box, packing material and the item to the post office. That way, rather than speculating, you can get the cold facts about whether it was packed adequately and whether they think it was previously repaired. I find that my post office is fairly lenient, allowing packing that I KNOW was inadequate, to be called "adequate" because it contains a sheet or two of bubble-wrap.
On the other hand, if the seller does not pack an item adequately according to UPS/USPS standards (they do have printed information available about packing) to protect it during shipping, I think they SHOULD be held liable for the loss -- especially if the post office denies the insurance claim!
Many sellers require insurance -- that was the recommended procedure by the majority of posters here on AW just a few months ago. I don't see it as a danger sign (as possibly indicating a fraudulent seller). It does provide protection if the package is lost. And though I prefer to decide for myself whether to insure the package or not, I figure that at least I can recover part of my loss if the item is damaged during shipping. (By the way, the seller on a recent breakage claim I had to file told me that her post office always refunds the postage, too! I have previously read some interpretations of the USPS Publication 122 that say that they are supposed to refund postage if all of the contents are damaged. Pub. 122 available here: http://www.usps.com/feedback/faq-ccm.htm)
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
posted on November 1, 2000 02:33:56 PM new
Zian..proper packaging minimizes damage, it does not prevent it in all cases. I'm sure you've heard that saying "sh*t happens". Well, sometimes, no matter how well packed an item is, it will break in shipping.
It's kind of like dropping a china teacup on a ceramic tile floor..sometimes the cup wil break into a few pieces, sometimes it will shatter into a zillion pieces, and other times it will bounce and suffer no damage what so ever.
There are just to many variables to assume that if an item is packaged properly the item inside will NEVER break.
posted on November 1, 2000 05:44:50 PM new
well, I'm no expert in the area of construction of wooden objects, and since you guys have pointed out quite reasonably that the glue was probably put there in the auctual making of the item (I wouldn't have known this!), then I see no reason why I shouldn't take the claim to the post office.
Next stop, USPS- we'll see what they have to say about the whole thing. Seems like it will entirely depend on who handles the claim though, doesn't it? If I thought that the bowl may have been damaged before sending, Joe Postal worker isn't likely to have Amy's wonderful knowledge of wood construction techniques, he may well think the same thing I did. Sheesh. We'll see.
Thanks for the u-pic email address, Mr.Potatoheadd- I'll make good use of it ASAP!
Thanks everyone for all the wonderful advice. I truly appreciate it.
edited cuz typos suck.
[ edited by CAgrrl on Nov 1, 2000 05:46 PM ]
posted on November 2, 2000 10:33:04 PM new
Each of my auctions require insurance. If the buyers see the square box that is marked fragile in red on each side and which you have just stated is fragile to the USPS rep thrown five to 12 feet into one of the fabric tubs maybe it would make them rethink this "if seller requires insurance thay are scamming me" attitude. In three years of selling throught the internet (both auctions and through a site) I have had three claims in over 1500 sales. One box was marked fragile and the buyer emailed me pictures with large tire tracks against the dented side of the box. I printed these out and inquired about them at the post office...their response "I've seen worse then that". The other two boxes were also dented (new priority mail box) and items inside crushed. Never had one package missing but some EXTREMLY slow. So buyers rethink your "theory".
posted on November 2, 2000 10:56:13 PM new
well, with only 3 claims in 1500 sales, I'd feel pretty comfortable purchasing from you WITHOUT insurance. Especially since you've never had a package lost. That's just my opinion.
