posted on November 13, 2000 01:57:58 PM
Ok gang, I think eBay is getting a little big for their britches. My last month eBay bill was in excess of $800, so that gives you an idea of the amount of business I bring them.
Due to PayPal charging me 2%, I started listing in my auctions that the winner will be responsible for a 2% surcharge if they so choose to pay me via PayPal.
eBay shut down all my auctions.
Now, this is not a topic to discuss whether or not it is a smart business practice for me to charge the winners the 2% fee...so don't bother replying with that stuff.
My feeling is that I should be able to charge the winners this 2%, if I so choose, and only if the winner chooses to pay vial paypal, and only if I clearly list this in my auctions. My arguments:
1) PayPal is not a credit card company. They are simply a payment venue.
2) PayPal themselves clearly notes that thier 2% fee is not a credit card surcharge. If it were, they would be in Visa and Mastercard violation.
3) Think about shipping something COD. COD is not a method of shipment. It is a method of getting payment. Under eBay's rules, if Charging the winners for a PayPal transaction is illegal, then so is charging the winner $5 for COD...which is done in hundreds of auctions.
eBay refuses to discuss this with me, and simply shut down all my auctions containing that verbiage. I don't know what to do, other than persue legal avenues.
Can someone tell me what my next step would or should be against eBay, since I truley feel I'm in the right with this one.
posted on November 13, 2000 02:43:17 PM
But all of EBAY'S RULES are based on this being a credit card surcharge, which it clearly is not...as even confirmed by PayPal.
When this is brought up, eBay refuses to discuss it.
posted on November 13, 2000 02:54:11 PMI swear, they are getting a kickback from PayPal.
Ebay doing something to promote the primary competitor to Billpoint?
The point is, I think, that ebay considers the Paypal "fee" a CC fee, whether it is or not. Ebay's yard, ebay's game, ebay's rules.
I suppose you could litigate this if you want. Are the Paypal "fees" you want to collect from your bidders actually more than the legal fees this would entail - particularly considering the uncertainty of the outcome? I'm guessing your gross is about $30K/month. Absorbing those Paypal "fees", assuming EVERYbody paid by Paypal CC, would be $600/month. 12 months = $7,200. Assuming $750 in legal costs (court fees, copying), that gives you about 35 hours of your lawyer's time. I dunno.
If you're absorbing the fees on other CCs, why not absorb those from PP too?
posted on November 13, 2000 02:57:26 PM
Another option (and maybe more sane than my previous one, given PayPal's constantly evolving TOU's) would be to just stop offering them as a method of payment.
posted on November 13, 2000 03:01:43 PM
Let me preface what I'm going to say with the fact that I agree with your argument...the paypal fee is not a credit card surcharge since we the sellers are not the merchant account accepting the credit card payment.
But..just what would you sue ebay for? Ebay is a company that makes the rules for the use of their services. The fact that they have based this rule on their (in my opinion false) interpretation of a law doesn't make their rule a law. There is no legal argument that you can give that would void ebay's right to set their own terms of service.
The best course of action is to abide by ebay's rules if you wish to continue to sell at the ebay mall.
posted on November 13, 2000 03:43:04 PM
I have to agree with Ebay on this one. It is a seller benifit to accept credit cards. It attracts customers to your auctions. If that was not true you would not accept them.
People do not pay a percentage to use credit cards at stores or live auctions or anywhere that I know of. So they do not expect to pay it on Ebay.
It is a part of doing business that any business should not mind paying to have the extra customers.
posted on November 13, 2000 04:05:56 PM
Ebay's rules specifically prohibit "upcharges" passed to buyers that use credit cards to pay. If they choose to interpret this as applying to PayPal, it is their right, as they decide how their TOS is to be interpreted and applied. In addition, MasterCard and Visa both prohibit passing "merchant fees" onto the buyer. Paypal might do well to reinterpret their stance, since it appears that as a "venue" they are the ones holding the "merchant account". In time, it may come to pass that PayPal will be the one left twisting in the wind on this issue, since MasterCard and Visa could hold PayPal to their account standard. It would be one for the courts, and my guess would be that PayPal would end up on the short end of the stick.
posted on November 13, 2000 05:18:28 PM
Toolhound, you're missing the entire point. This has nothing to do with credit cards, or credit card surcharges.
posted on November 13, 2000 05:37:50 PM
KatyD and heavnsqt,
I'd swear you folks work for eBay. You give the same lines they feed me.
Why is it when I clearly point out that PayPal is not a credit card company, by their own admission, ebay (and you guys) reply with "oh, you can't charge a credit card surcharge"?
This has nothing to do with credit cards people. PayPal is not a credit card company. They themselves clearly state that the 2% fee they pass on, is not a credit credit card surcharge.
I feel like I should be able to sue for damages based on them shutting down all my aucitons, in addition to my now poor reputation with all those pissed off bidders that were left in the lurch.
Would it be worth it to sue? Not my concern. I have deep pockets. I'm tired of eBay pulling crap like this...someone has to take a stance.
I know eBay has rules, but I violated none of them. None. This is not a CC surcharge. If people can pass on a $5 UPS COD fee to thier bidders, then there is no reason I cannot pass on a 2% paypal fee.
Of course you could sue eBay because you think their rules are unfair. People can sue anyone for anything but it would seem reasonable that eBay be allowed to set and interpret it's own policies. Just my take on it.
posted on November 13, 2000 05:56:33 PM
eBay is a monopoly. Customer satisfaction is obviously not a concern. Demand is enormous. They don't really care that the inventory is dumbed down in response to constant crashes. For every quitter, there are two more eager beavers to sign up. Get while the gettin's good. Work around their b.s. Grit your teeth and vent on auctionwatch like the rest of us. In the meantime, go check out Yahoo like the rest of us.
posted on November 13, 2000 05:58:33 PM
I agree with mrpotatoheadd's comment that the best solution would be for you to stop accepting Paypal altogether, not that I fault Paypal for charging a fee for their service.
I think that if nearly all Sellers refused to accept Paypal because of eBay refusing to allow Sellers direct compensation from the customer using their service, then Paypal could go sue eBay instead of us.
toolhound, you said, "People do not pay a percentage to use credit cards at stores or live auctions or anywhere that I know of."
I think that you meant "Up-Front"; as credit card transactions fees are charged to everybody whether they use a credit card or not. Most eBay Sellers just do not have the luxury of hiding the fees as retail stores do.
posted on November 13, 2000 06:13:48 PM
I think your still missing the point here.
and as I read it at frist paypal and ebay were both leaveing these fees charges for useing paypal up to the seller.
As I understand it they have both learn that both Visa and mastercard will not be happy with passing these third party fees on to credit card users neither company wants trouble with Visa or MasterCard or any other credit card compnay for that matter.
as I understand it both companys are in califonia and must live inside the laws of this state and the state of california is also starting to frown on these charges as the complaints have started to pour in about it from credit card users.
posted on November 13, 2000 07:06:16 PMRaise your shipping price 2% and offer a 2% discount for cash/check/money order payment.
That's an excellent idea.
posted on November 13, 2000 07:59:18 PM
Excuse me, but just what is your problem with ebay?
In your auctions you make the rules, right? You do not expect your customers to disregard your rules..right? For all intents and purposes, when it comes to you and your customers it's your way or the highway as far as the customers are concerned.
The auction site "ebay" belongs to ebay and they make the rules (just like you make your rules). Ebay does not expect it's customers (YOU) to disregard ebay's rules. For all intent and purposes, when it comes to ebay and it's customers (YOU) it's their way or the highway as far as your concerned.
Of course you could sue ebay over this..and you would have about as much chance of winning as a snowball does of surviving in h*ll
You might have more of a lawsuit if ebay forced you to accept paypal and then refused to let you pass the fees on to the customer...but the choice to accept paypal is yours alone. And the choice to use ebay is yours alone, nobody is forcing you to do either one.
You want to pass on the fees? Go to Yahoo (or do they have the same prohibition?)
posted on November 13, 2000 08:03:11 PM
my guess is they refunded the fees on the auctions that they canceled, that's their only liability on the add.
we once listed as many as 900 auctions, one day a person at ebay contacted us and said that we had a link to yahoo and amazon on our adds and killed all our auctions with bids and gave us 24 hours to make changes to our auctions of they would kill those as well.
Here's the deal, our adds said click here to check out our other auctions, it was a link that took you to our home page and then you had to click the auction site you wanted to go to. THIS IS NOT AGAINST THEIR RULES!! I tried to call and talk to this girl for 4 days, she would never talk to me, I did have every other person at ebay apologize for her but never from her. we lost loads of money and we have never got our listing back over 400 at any one time.
They make the rules, if you can't live by them you just can't play in their sandbox.
posted on November 13, 2000 08:17:39 PM
In California it is illegal to charge a credit card fee. The legal way around it is have a s/h cost with the paypal fee built in.
After the first of the year I am considering charging a flatrate shipping which has the built-in charge figured. I can give rebates to those who pay with money orders or cashiers checks.
I don't think you should give a personal check discount because you are always running the risk of it bouncing. A money order is the same as cash.
I still accept Paypal but no longer have their logo on my auctions and do not promote it as a payment option unless buyer asks for it.
posted on November 13, 2000 08:18:46 PM"You may be happy being a pawn, but I'm not."
You've got a few options.
1. Obey their rules.
2. Leave eBay.
3. Hire a lawyer and spend time and money in the chance you'll end up as David and eBay will play the role of Goliath.
Myself being a person that places a high value on my free time I'd go with just option 1 or 2. I've got to have a helluva good reason and chance before I'll do battle with Goliath.
posted on November 13, 2000 08:20:56 PM"They make the rules, if you can't live by them you just can't play in their sandbox."
Well said airguy!
Some of these people act like it is the end of the world. Hey wake up and smell the coffee folks, there are other Auction sites out there in cyber space to use.
Think I will open up an office and do psych work for people that get upset with eBay. I will have a big black couch with the word eBay on it to make them feel warm and fuzzy. Sure beats listing items on eBay these days.
You've missed out on one major point. I challenge you to find one single rule of eBay's that I've violated by stating in my auctions: "If winner chooses to pay via PayPal, a 2% surcharge will be added".
I'm not trying to get around any rules that eBay has. My argument is that they've dumped my auctions, for the above sentence, and they have no rule against it.
It's not a CC surcharge. It's a PayPal surcharge, and PayPal themselves tells us it's not a CC surcharge.
