posted on November 14, 2000 11:19:51 AM new
As a merchant / vendor, I accept PayPal because it seems to be the most popular amongst Ebay buyers. Yes, I had a small discretion that was resolved to my satisfaction. Thankfully, I haven't had any bad experiences.
I sometimes make purchases and feel discouraged because they clearly state "I do not accept PayPal nor intend to". Other means of credit card transactions are usually not stated and accepted means are money order (which costs money - ouch), or we have to wait for the check to clear which takes so long. I really like the ease of zapping my money and getting my item in a hurry, just as I feel about people wanting to purchase something from me.
I don't know. Anyone else feel this way? I just believe that we don't get everything for free forever so why change?
posted on November 14, 2000 11:50:35 AM new
I agree with you completely. The world is full of 30 day free trials, nobody thinks twice. Paypal offered free and gave it for free for a long time. I still use it as a seller and a buyer, and plan on continuing. I have not yet reached my limit so I am not listed as a business yet. When the time comes I will upgrade though.
posted on November 14, 2000 11:52:35 AM new
The problem for me was never the fees. I even stuck up for PP when everyone was screaming about the fees. The problem for me is the lies and the freezing of accounts while alowing new payments to come in. It's going into people's bank accounts (sorry "reversing payments" in Paypalspeak) four months after they took place. I point all my customers to this page, feel free to link to it yourself. I went from 8-10 Paypal payments a week to one in the past two weeks while most of my customers have switched to Exchangepath. I will stay with EP even if they charge a modest fee, so long as they dont lie to everyone.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:16:43 PM new
I've had a drop in PayPal payments the past couple of weeks - most are back to sending Personal Checks.
A month ago at least 70% of my auctions would pay by PayPal. Now I would say I'm down to 30%.
I may just switch over to Billpoint and keep it all 'within the family' so to speak. Keeping up with PayPal's changes, fees, revolving rules just isn't worth it for 30% of a customer base.
As a buyer I love it but I've noticed not as many sellers are so excited about it any more.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:17:15 PM new
Having followed all the threads, pro and con Paypal, I certainly agree that there are "issues" with Paypal, the company, and understand that individuals have had problems with Paypal freezing accounts, etc. Certainly I have found their customer relations practices ingenuous at best (lying about "always free", evasive answers, changes before users were notified, etc.) However, the ease that their service has added to my life is a trade-off that I am unwilling to give up. Unless I experience a problem firsthand with their service, I will continue to use it, as the pros of the day to day use, to me, outweigh the cons which are more ideological, in the absence of actual problems, which as I said, I haven't had. However, I don't advertise it the way I used to. And frankly if I did have problems I wouldn't be surprised. However, it's a risk I'm choosing to take. At least 50% of my customers pay through paypal and I use it about 90% of the time when I buy on eBay. Something will probably screw up sometime (just like with a bank or a credit card, it's inevitable that some snafu occurs) and when it does I'll re-evaluate.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:19:48 PM new
I still use PayPal. I had a problem one time, which was not something that PayPal caused...I called them, and they were very helpful to find out what happened...Then, I was in contact with someone at PayPal daily by email until this was resolved. Most of my buyers still pay via PayPal. I did just started taking Yahoo PayDirect...which I wasn't going to do, but I figure the more options that I use to help me in selling my items, I will try it.
posted on November 14, 2000 12:42:43 PM new
<i>
anggellene:
"I've had a drop in PayPal payments the past couple of weeks - most are back to sending Personal Checks."
</i>
Not surprising.
Most polls demonstrate that folks generally don't like providing their credit card numbers online, and muster all their courage to type in their credit card number when signing up for a PayPal account. After reaching a spending limit of $250 they are then presented with a demand for their bank account number. I believe most just won't do it.
So while PayPal may well have four million accounts, just how many of them are functional?
From the PayPal terms of service of the day (TOSOTD):
"U.S. Users: Unverified users are limited to $250 of spending until they confirm an email address and bank account."
[I.6. User Responsibilites. Spending Limits.]
posted on November 14, 2000 12:51:29 PM new
I once rode the subway at 2 AM and didnt get mugged. I think I will do this regularly and when I get mugged I will re-evaluate. Why would anyone willingly deal with a crooked company? Don't tell me the majority of buyers are using Paypal. That's just another Paypal lie. 80% of my customers were using PP two weeks ago. I still accept it grudgingly. But I tell my customers I dont recommend it and point them to my web page and guess what? In at least two dozen sales only one insisted on using PP and the rest switched to Exchangepath at my recommendation (and the $5 referral is a nice bonus).
As for trading in Paypal for Paydirect, that's like jumping from the fire into the frying pan. You're going from a crooked company that will protect themselves at the expense of their customers and even try to profit from it by locking entire accounts over a $19 dispute, to a lazy company that will just go with the easiest way of protecting themselves by taking every charge back out of the seller's account without any investigation.
Here is Paydirect's response to my email (it took them a week to answer):
"In answer to your inquiry regarding reversal of Payments:
If a Payment is funded fraudulently, or the funding transaction is charged back by the creditcard holder, the Payment would be reversed. "
So the best payment services right now are Exchangepath, Payplace and Moneyzap (and the Western Union name might mean something to folks) or Achex if you want a bank account based system rather than credit card. All of these are currently free. Achex does not allow charge backs. The others follow credit card procedures which means the seller gets a chance to respond and show proof of delivery. Exchangepath is number one because 1) it pays a $5 referral bonus and 2)it accepts Amex and Discover as well as Visa and MC and 3) it allows for $1000 credit.
posted on November 14, 2000 01:03:36 PM new
I am a small-scale seller and my profit margins do not make it feasible to pay another fee on top of ebay fees. Hence, I will not become a business user of PayPal.
I worried about this, but for the past few weeks I've put in my auctions that I accept PayPal only in the form of account transfer (non-credit card) and it's worked beautifully. I've had many transactions but am no longer using up my $500 "allowance".
I also offer PayDirect and ExchangePath and I've had a handful of buyers using both. Plus, so many checks and money orders that yesterday alone I had a dozen [thanks to that goto.com promotion!]
posted on November 14, 2000 01:06:40 PM new
yisgood,
Would you say that ExchangePath protects the sellers out of all the credit card transaction companies?
Also is there a place where all the credit card transaction provider is rated? I certainly would like to find one where is a good customer service and protects both the buyer & the seller ... or is that only available in a perfect world?
I guess what I'm saying in the above statement is, PayPal certainly has been convenient for me with both the buyer & the seller. It's those merchant / vendors that will not accept credit cards period. In my opinion is only hurting themselves. Why do that?
posted on November 14, 2000 01:07:33 PM new
I have had a couple thousand transactions with Paypal. Due to some problems I recently had with them, I have STOPPED accepting Paypal but I offer 10 other methods of payment, several of those are other online payment methods. I also do NOT accept checks (and haven't in over a year and it has not hurt my sales at all). I was a little leary of my bids dropping because of "no paypal" but they haven't! I'm actually very surprised. People are very willing to sign up with other online payment methods. It's not that they just "prefer" paypal - they just want to pay quickly and get their item quickly. Many have told me they prefer paypal only because that's who they are signed up with but they gladly signed up with other services to pay me quickly.
I personally think Paypal is on their way down - right beside their "partner" X.com.
posted on November 14, 2000 01:24:14 PM new
>>Would you say that ExchangePath protects the sellers out of all the credit card transaction companies? Also is there a place where all the credit card transaction provider is rated? I certainly would like to find one where is a good customer service and protects both the buyer & the seller ... or is that only available in a perfect world? <<
To answer this question entirely would take a full magazine. There is no way to protect both buyer and seller completely. There are too many issues ("this was not how I understood the item" "item was damaged" "UPS broke it - not me". So credit card companies have set up certain basic rules and the government has passed certain laws that address the basics. If the buyer claims no delivery or unauthorized use of the card, the seller has to be able to prove that the item was delivered to the cardholder's address. Failure to prove that results in a charge back.
This is the biggest problem facing auction folks today - sellers who dont ship or buyers who deny getting it.
Payment services are NOT credit cards and therefore not subject to the standard laws.
So services like Paydirect, which dont give the sellers a chance, are failing the seller. What Paypal is doing is even worse. They tell the buyer to wait 30 days before making a complaint. Then they try to delay the complaint until it is too late to make a charge back. If a buyer makes a charge back, they immediately freeze the seller's account without giving the seller a chance to respond. They accept payments for a frozen account, basically stealing money from even more innocent people.
Companies like Exchangeplace, Payplace and Moneyzap had decided that rather than re-invent the wheel, they will follow standard credit card procedures. This is as fair as they can be to both buyer and seller. It is not a 100% perfect. It will not cover if the seller sends something that is not as advertised. But then again, buyers should look at the seller's feedback before buying, so they have some basis on which to make the purchase. Sellers dont always have the luxury of checking out their buyers.
The famous FBI article about fraud that everyone loves to quote, says there were over 40,000 Internet fraud complaints last year. The sentence most people leave out is that less than 1000 of them were real fraud. That's less than 2%. The rest was buyers complaining about the quality of the merchandise.
In general, most sellers are experienced and know the game. Many buyers are newbies and dont understand. When there is a misunderstanding, the buyer screams fraud. I think it's smarter for a system to try to deal with the 1000 cases of real fraud then for a service like Paydirect to decide that they buyer is always right. By letting the buyer always win, we go from fighting 2% of fraud to committing 98% fraud (charging back an item that was shipped is committing a fraud.) It's just a matter of time before the Yahoos who deadbeat under multiple IDs realize they dont have to deadbeat. They can just pay with paydirect and then charge it back.
posted on November 14, 2000 01:52:20 PM new
I'm taking a break until after Thanksgiving, but I'm pulling all the PayPal logos off my Mister Lister auction templates even as we speak.
It's not the fees. It's the ever-changing rules, entire accounts being frozen without explanation and for amounts higher than the amount in question, the severe lack of customer service, ....
From what I've read here and in several other places, all it would take is one unreasonable customer complaining to PayPal instead of trying to resolve the problem with you, and BAM! your whole account is frozen. And with credit card fraud increasing these days, that only makes things that much scarier.
I sell on eBay to pay bills and buy groceries for my family. I can't afford to take the chance of my account being frozen for situations beyond my control. Not to mention I don't like the idea of them handling my and my customers' money when they can't seem to decide on their own terms of service.
Unless something wonderful happens that makes PayPal significantly safer to use, there won't be any future logos on my auctions. I haven't decided yet whether I'll be using any other online service -- I doubt I will, but if I do, it'll most likely be BillPoint.
posted on November 14, 2000 02:01:56 PM new
What perfect timing. I just received this email from a potentional bidder:
I'm new on e-bay and as I was browsing through petite clothes, I noticed some of your merchandise.I noticed where you state that you "no longer accept Paypal." After I signed up for e-bay, I also signed up for Paypal. Now, I'm wondering if I did the right thing in signing up for that service. Would you mind sharing your rationale for not using it. (It has started to bother me).
This is not the first email I've received like this. More and more people are realizing the ways of Paypal and are running in the opposite direction. I also received another email just the other day from a high bidder of mine who said "I'll be paying by XXXXXXXXX because Paypal has ticked me off for the last time!"
Bidders and sellers both are seeing the underhanded, lying, scheming ways of Paypal.
posted on November 14, 2000 02:06:41 PM new
Other means of credit card transactions are usually not stated and accepted means are money order (which costs money - ouch)
++++++++++++++++++
Ohhhh a buyer doesn't want to pay a fee for a money order, but it's ok for us sellers to pay fees for them to have the pleasure of using paypal?
It's time for buyers to sign up for something else like ExchangePath, MoneyZap, or whatever. Sellers are sick of paying all the bills and taking all the risks. Or buy from someone else because THIS seller does NOT accept Paypal or BillPoint anymore.
posted on November 14, 2000 02:10:58 PM new
I posted this to Partner Services awhile ago but it fits here just as well ...
Well, I had one buyer who sent this e-mail:
"I'll probably sign up with one of the payment services (this is my first e-bay purchase) or get a money order out within the next couple of days."
In my reply, I simply noted that before deciding on either PayPal or ExchangePath (these are my two online payment options) they should take a look at the AuctionWatch message boards.
And they decided:
"I took your advice and signed up for ExchangePath."
posted on November 14, 2000 02:14:43 PM newheygrape-
Exactly! I only started taking PayPal because buyers wanted to pay that way- I have no problem waiting for a check in the mail. And now, some are whining because they don't think it's right that they should have to pay extra to use their cc. Give me a break.
posted on November 14, 2000 02:40:51 PM new
yisgood - you are writing with authority regarding Paydirect and chargebacks when it specifically states in their TOS that a buyer cannot charge back. This is very clearly communicated, and I appreciate that further down their appears to be a contradicting statement, but the jury is still OUT on this.
I am just off the phone with Paydirect and ISO the definitive answer from CIBC who is actually running the show, and will post what I can find out as soon as I can. In the meantime I can tell you that per Paydirect rep, I was told he had not heard of A SINGLE case of what you describe occurring, so please.. Let's get the real scoop here.
Paydirect TOS says that a buyer FUNDS their account with their credit card and that transaction is not tied to any specific deal further down the line. To me this is akin to taking a cash advance. Once you get your money if someone take it at gunpoint, too bad for you. Sounds harsh, but the fact is, buyers send their checks and MO's to us ON FAITH and feedback and this part of the Paydirect TOS states that when they use the service, they are doing the same.
To be on topic - regarding Paypal - two words. Bite me.
posted on November 14, 2000 06:04:52 PM new
yisgood wrote:
I once rode the subway at 2 AM and didnt get mugged. I think I will do this regularly and when I get mugged I will re-evaluate. <<<
I don't think that this weak attempt to create an analogy between my decision to keep using Paypal and *life-threatening crime* is particularly apt. I have Paypal hooked up to a free bank account that has nothing in it except my Paypal funds, which never add up to more than 50 dollars or so at any given time before I transfer them out to a regular account which Paypal has nothing to do with. So if worst comes to worst and someone initiates a chargeback (which I have never had on Paypal, but have had as a vendor in other venues, and it's a fact of life and will happen from time to time *whenever* you take credit card payments, which of course no one is *required* to do) then my account is frozen for $50 at most. Fifty dollars is not small change but I would hardly call its loss comparable to a mugging. Fortunately (and I am in no way claiming this is true for everyone) I can absorb that loss and keep functioning here. I also have a separate, unique e-mail address attached to Paypal for incoming payments, which I give to my buyers after they contact me, so that way I don't have people sending payments without my OK. That keeps them from making payments which could (in case of chargeback) get frozen in addition to the ones already there. These are safeguards. However, nothing is perfect. Like I said, most likely some screwup will occur at some point---just like it does with eBay, just like it does at a regular bank, and just like it does in any business---and I'll deal with it then. If it's a big screwup, I'll re-consider my use of their service. Is this really such a difficult concept to grasp?
>>Why would anyone willingly deal with a crooked company? <<
Hmmm. Are you an eBay seller? If so, why would anyone willingly deal with a crooked company? I guess you need to answer that question yourself.
>>Don't tell me the majority of buyers are using Paypal. That's just another Paypal lie. 80% of my customers were using PP two weeks ago. I still accept it grudgingly. But I tell my customers I dont recommend it and point them to my web page and guess what? In at least two dozen sales only one insisted on using PP and the rest switched to Exchangepath at my recommendation (and the $5 referral is a nice bonus). <<
Your experience in successfully getting people to switch has nothing to do with the fact that yes, for me, about 50 percent, sometimes more, of my buyers are using Paypal without any advertising or encouragement on my part at all. If you feel it's that bad a company, fine. But don't try to use anecdotal evidence to portray it as an unsuccessful company, when it clearly has acheived an amazing degree of penetration into the auction market. Poorly run it may be--and I don't disagree with the fact that it seems poorly run, only that to me, it's worth the risk of losing 50 bucks for the convenience, as long as it lasts---but there's no reason to bolster your argument with claims that it's going the way of the Hula Hoop.
I have no objection at all to you *not* using Paypal. I think people should use the payment techniques that work well for them. And Paypal despite all its problems for others, is working well for me.
posted on November 14, 2000 06:08:07 PM new
Hoover has never made a vacuum cleaner that sucks as much as PayPal.
They lie.
They refuse to give a straight answer to your questions.
They will freeze your account because customer D paid you with funds received from customer C who received funds from customer B who received funds from a crook (customer A).
With PayPal you pay your money and take your chances...
posted on November 14, 2000 06:19:28 PM new
<heygrape>
<b>Ohhhh a buyer doesn't want to pay a fee for a money order, but it's ok for us sellers to pay fees for them to have the pleasure of using paypal?</b>
I'm a buyer and a seller. Have you checked out the latest money order fees? Outrageous! As a seller, at least I can price my item accordingly. As a seller, I provide PayPal as a convenience to my buyers. I would most appreciate that back from MY seller.
Another aspect that hurts the most is Ebay. Listing Fee, Final Fee and the miniscle fee thrown in from PayPal. The fees are nickel & diming a small business like me. Therefore for buyers not having the option of any credit card, and having a perfect Ebay record has to be thrown in with the 10-14 day clearing period, which in essence takes over 3 weeks to get my item. That doesn't sound so fair.
avmom
[ edited by avmom on Nov 14, 2000 06:45 PM ]
posted on November 14, 2000 07:00:10 PM new
No, I don't like PayPal. I don't like the way it treats its customers. I don't like the way it changes its TOS early and often.
I don't like the way PayPal lies about its real motives for such things as "verification."
The fees don't matter.
I offer plenty of other options for credit card payment, including some with higher fees (and better service) than PayPal. I don't hold checks and I ship fast.
It's really easy to pay me. Just please don't pay me with PayPal.
posted on November 14, 2000 08:09:56 PM new
I pulled off my PayPal logos and state I accept PayDirect and ExchangePath in both my Auction ads and EOA's. My PayPal account is still open though as I had considered keeping it for International users only. The probllem is that people see PayDirect and still think it's PayPal. I've had more than a few people who automatically just sent me money through Paypal without even reading and since my account it still open it goes through. Even had one guy add a quarter to the total amount and then email me and then said he would send a check if absolutely necessary.
Is it that people don't read or they just want to do what they want to do. I had two International buyers where I stated only Bidpay or an international postal money order in US funds. I received a check in US funds. Uggg.
posted on November 14, 2000 08:29:26 PM new
It's about time the "buyers" start feeling the "unfairness" that us sellers have been bombarded with. Let's see how THEY like the nickle and diming for awhile.
The sellers have been fighting all along to keep fees down so they could sell at decent and low prices, to no avail, with little or no words of help coming from the buyers. How many buyers have any of you seen in here fighting against all the outrageous fees we sellers are paying?
Now that some sellers are either passing the fees on, or refusing to use the services that charge fees alltogether, the poor widdle buyers are whining. Poor Babies. Wait til the Postage goes up buyers. All these companies that want a piece of our pie have finally realized us sellers have no more to give and are going after the buyers now. Just realizing that Life ain't fair? Punt like the rest of us are.
I will NOT raise my prices and I will NOT pay any more fees to any more greedy companies wanting more of my already tiny piece of the pie.
. So credit card companies have set up certain basic rules and the government has passed certain laws that address the basics. If the buyer claims no delivery or unauthorized use of the card, the seller has to be able to prove that the item was delivered to the cardholder's address. Failure to prove that results in a charge back.
Not to mention I don't like the idea of them handling my and my customers' money when they can't seem to decide on their own terms of service.
