posted on November 28, 2000 10:57:46 PM
Greetings Earthlings..
I must have too much time on my hands.
Here's a thought that is bound to draw a variety of opinions. And before I state it let me make it clear I'm niether promoting it nor opposing it. Its simply an idea that I'm curious to gauge the reception of. No arguments please!
Since there is so much conjecture regarding sales vitality, competition, site size, identicle merchandise, etc. And some fingers point to the high volume/ratio and professionality (or lack) of sellers. One idea may be to put a cap on the number of sellers on the site. Admitting new sellers only when spots become available.
Could it be that what once seemed limitless has finally borne out to show that there is a critical mass, beyond which a sites dynamic and/or effectiveness diminishes ?
Do current conditions present a model that indicates that the even in the vastness of the internet any given sector can, in fact, get too burdened to remain useful?
Co-ops, flea markets, malls, resorts and even towns have (generally speaking) a limited amount of retail "spaces" available. beyond which, a new seller must wait for an opening. That's the way it has always been. Dealers and retailers use great discretion in determining which places will get the most effective traffic and embark to establish themselves there, when an opening presents itself.
Are we under a [false] impression that there is limitless dealer spaces available just because it's the internet? Ebay, after all, is just one place in the internet.
Has ebay reached a point where this is even worth a thought?
Anyway, something to think about, and once again, I'm niether promoting nor condemning this idea. Just presenting it with a some fuel to get it started. I may take the other side of the issue later..if I feel like it. Though I may have time to do little else but check to see what others think. Have a very busy day tomorrow!
posted on November 28, 2000 11:05:22 PM
I wish e-bay would split and have 2 sites.
One for retail and bulk listings and one for vintage collectables and hard to find items.
That would would free up things alot!
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edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD HAIR DAY! ...
That is one opinion that I will say that I agree with and have for a long time. I started a post (or heavily participated in one) with that recommendation back in the days when Ross and Barry were at each others throats! If I remember correctly (and I might not since I can't even recall if I started the thread or not!) that I got a lot of crap for suggesting it, But I feel some vindication for holding that position as I observe how things are getting more and more out of hand.
I vaguely remember that you may have participated in that thread also and perhaps even started one of your own on the same lines. Is this familiar to you?
[ edited by long_gone on Nov 28, 2000 11:24 PM ]
posted on November 28, 2000 11:21:08 PM
Yeah but who gets to pick who gets in and who doesn't.....the voters of Florida?
The whining about the election always seemed somehow familiar to me....but then I realized that it sounded just like the ebay outlook after another paypal down time.
I think I got a dimpled check from PayPal the other day...or was that a pregnant check?
posted on November 28, 2000 11:33:20 PM
Ahhh yes the days of Ross & Barry. Just where are those people these days?
I seem to recall that thread myself, but don't remember the outcome of it.
chrisvnh...your funny!
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edited for packer by packer!!
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Having a BAD HAIR DAY! ...
posted on November 28, 2000 11:36:03 PM
It will never happen and should not happen.
Yes, more sellers will come in and drive the profits down, that is how capitalism works.
Why should the "got there first" sellers take advantage of buyers by getting higher prices and delivery worse service than might be offered by newer sellers.
If you want corruption and high prices, put in place a "medallion" system like the New York cab drivers ... an idea mobsters and communists can love.
posted on November 28, 2000 11:38:27 PM
Who gets to decide on the number of sellers? Would the number of sellers in general be capped, or would each category have a cap on the number of sellers? Would sellers be required to declare categories in which they will sell and be limited to listing in these categories?
Would there be different rules for Power Sellers? Would there be rules within the rules for Power Sellers who qualify at various levels? Say Gold for example?
Would all sellers have to maintain a predetermined number of listings per week or month to maintain their seller status?
Would sellers waiting for a selling slot spend their days surfing eBay counting the number of listings or looking for sellers who have nothing listed at the moment to report them to eBay to get them tossed to open selling slots?
All I can think of right now. I am sure others will add to the list.
posted on November 28, 2000 11:41:10 PM
As I would reckon, whoever is there when it would get initiated would stay. Any new applications would wait for an opening. I would think there would then be buyer accounts and separate seller accounts. They would, of course, keep allowing new buyer accounts. A seller who does not show activity in their selling account for say, 90 days without prior authorization, might be offered a warning that their account could be in jeopardy. It would certainly make it hard for a deadbeat seller to simply open a new account right away after being booted off. And it would make small time scammers (ie: keyword spammers, picture theifs, power seller who have become casual about disclosing damage, etc) think a little harder before taking such chances. I would think that the percentage of quality and professionality of the pool of sellers would begin to grow as all the chaff quikly blows away.
They would certainly have to institute a [fair] system of recourse for potential undeserved terminations or suspensions.
posted on November 28, 2000 11:52:17 PM
When Ebay was very young, sellers were limited to a total of listing twenty items per day, no more (could be less).
I should think, rather than limiting the number of sellers, a cap on the number of items listed by each seller might be a more equitable solution.
A cap on the number of sellers would do nothing to weed out those sellers that are generating complaints, in that as long as new bidders, not having been burned, kept buying these sellers would survive.
[ edited by jada on Nov 28, 2000 11:54 PM ]
posted on November 28, 2000 11:56:17 PM
smw- Again, I'm not advocating this, just presenting it. I think a lot of good thoughts may come from this discussion. You bring up some good points. especially about sabotoge of sellers to create openings.
Like I said, before the internet, this IS the way it was. I see no more treachery here than in the brick and mortar counterpart. Though I may be a little naieve. I have to admit that there is more potential and opportunity to attempt it.
to your questions... First, of course, ebay would decide. for questions 2, in general; 3,4,5/6, no; 7, no; 8, I hope not!
I didn't know that, thats intersting, but it seems a bit crippling for sellers to make their living.
While I'm not advocating this (or opposing it) I do think it would do MUCH to weed out bad sellers. Remember, they might have to wait months to get back on once they've been booted off.
I do see that it might stimulate a sub industry for consigning sellers, those who might specialize in taking consignments for dealers who are waiting to get in themselves.
posted on November 29, 2000 12:09:04 AM
Long gone - I'm not sure what you mean about "this is the way it was". Prior to the internet was there actually a cap on brick and mortar retailers who dealt in antiques, collectibles, etc.?
Also, I don't think less than honest or reliable sellers only began with the birth of the internet. I believe these types of dealers, as well as honest and reliable, dealers have been around since the beginning of trade. Probably was a "used wheel" dealer not too long after the wheel was invented.
posted on November 29, 2000 12:14:48 AM
Long gone - Wouldn't a cap on sellers be even more crippling to those sellers who could not get into Ebay at all until an opening was available.
Also, if items were consigned, the number of items would not go down, therefore the site would be just as crowded.
With the present extreme difficulty of persuading Ebay to do anything about bad sellers, I doubt that any would get booted off any faster than is happening now.
Therefore, I don't think this would improve the quality of sellers, good sellers will remain and bad sellers will remain. The bidders who come across a bad seller will leave Ebay and the buyer pool will be made smaller because the same sellers will be on Ebay.
The less choice I have, both in sellers and items, the less likely I am to shop on Ebay. Same holds true for retail stores, more choice - more customers.
Edited to add just one more thought. If sellers were in a holding pattern waiting to be able to sell on Ebay, this might generate growth on other auction sites as good and bad sellers would quickly tire of "waiting on Ebay" and tell them "we don't need you - we're going to Disneyland...or Golds...or etc. "
Could be that only the bad sellers were willing to wait, so there would be more than ever on Ebay.
posted on November 29, 2000 12:30:38 AM
Jada, Absolutley, I mean thhere's only , say, 200 tables at the flea market. If it's sunday and your the 201st you don't get a spot.
How many stores are available at the mall? As many as hopeful retailer want there to be?
Sure, someone who wants to open a shop can find a spot somewhere, but unless they'er very lucky (or have been waiting) it might not be in the place, or even the town that they ideally wanted to be in.
Same, (in this idea) on the net. they could still set up shop in any one of a hundred auction sites, or net shops. but if they want to get into ebay they may have to wait some.
Come to think of it, this would be a good reason for ebay NOT to consider this. It may improve the dealer volume at competitive sites. Or perhaps all the riff raff that was slowly being removed would move to other sites and make ebay look more attractive. Who knows!?
Also, this wouldn't just be for antiques and collectables. And I'm not sure where you found any suggestion about dishonest sellers being born of the internet. They don't last long even in brick & mortar businesses either, at least not in my town.
Been thinkin' about tradin' my wheel in, hate the granite models, and slate is too low class, got anything in basalt?
posted on November 29, 2000 12:54:32 AM
Jada, In this model, I'm sure ebay wouldn't be concerened whether sellers who weren't registered were being crippled. No more than a mall is concerned how the sellers are doing who didn't get a store there.
Though ebay may be slow to rid the bad sellers, the ones who do get cut wouldn't be back any time soon. There will always be some bad sellers, this isn't a cure for that problem, but I think it would help it to some extent.
With the probable addition of perhaps 2 million more sellers this comong year I do think that sales (and more important, user satisfaction, buyer and seller alike) will get even more diluted and less pleasant.
As for choice, if ebay put a stop on new seller accounts right now, could you seriously think there would be a problem with the choice available?
Gotta get to bed, I have to get up in 2 hours, I'm going to go sell at the flea market tomorrow. Ahhhh, I'll get paid cash on the spot and I won't have to describe, take pictures or ship a single thing! I'm taking lots of stuff that didn't get any bids on ebay. It'll be fun knowing that someone is going to buy some of those things thinking that "this oughtta sell good on ebay!.
[ edited by long_gone on Nov 29, 2000 01:01 AM ]
posted on November 29, 2000 01:19:55 AM
If a successful flea market has no space for more dealers two things can happen..1)the flea market expands thus opening spaces for more merchants (and then advertising "we are the BIGGEST flea market in the state" )..the local city council agrees because more sellers equals more sales equals more tax revenue from the sales at the flea market AND the local businesses. 2)A competitor opens another flea market nearby which will operate at the same time the first one does.
If the local, very successful, antique mall has no more space the same two things can, and frequently do, happen. The mall expands, allowing more dealers...or another mall opens nearby.
If a town has no more retail space available, several things can happen...the local government rezones property near the current retail area to allow new businesses in (new business = more revenue from taxes and = enlarged opportunities for employment for local citizens)...or the new businesses look to the town boundries to establish their businesses there.
Limiting the number of sellers on ebay would stagnate the number and variety of items being sold. It is the variety and number of items that is the draw to the buyers..it's what brings them in and what keeps them coming back. Drive them off and they may never come back. Even if the "sellers-in-waiting" were to go to another internet site, there is no guarantee the buyers would follow...or at least not fast enough to make it profitable for the sellers who had to sell at the "second choice" site.
Ebay isn't broken, why change it? Right now it is a textbook case of capitalism and the free marketplace at work. The strongest and fittest will survive...the weakest will fall by the wayside. It will be interesting to see which category I fall into.
[ edited by amy on Nov 29, 2000 01:21 AM ]
posted on November 29, 2000 04:12:29 AM
I understand the frustration of some sellers here, but I don't think the capping idea is a good one at all----as someone else said, it's the variety that makes eBay a desireable shopping place. It is also variety and competition that makes it fun and exciting for buyers and keeps them coming back.
The possibility of getting an insanely great deal is one of the things that draws bidders and buyers to eBay. The spend-happy economy is over and the reality of the 21st century has set in. People aren't throwing money around as freely as they used to. Everyone has become more savvy. They are looking for price as well as quality.
If ebay becomes limited to a certain clique of sellers, as an antique mall, for instance, the likelihood of getting fantastic deals from newbies or other non-professional sellers will drop, and (I predict) the prices will go up to the equivalent of the local antique malls, which will cause buyers to lose interest as the likelihood of great deals drops. As someone else pointed out, the selection itself also will stagnate, but I'm talking about buyer spending habits particularly in this post, so I'll keep to that topic.
From a seller's point of view, it's a good idea to pretty much know what their stuff is worth and price it accordingly or have a reserve. This is 100% understandable and at the same time, a conflict with the buyer's point of view. There is always going to be tension here and disagreement between buyers and sellers because they have differing goals. From a buyer's point of view (and I give weight to this, because that's what we're trying to attract here---more BUYERS) this is not good for any but the most well heeled, I-have-unlimited-money-to-spend customers (who are always in the minority). Buyers love the chance of scoring a deal---just like any of us do! Think of this: Is there more often a killer deal at a yard sale or at a antique mall? You may not want buyers to get killer deals every day, or you would go out of business, but the truth is that the mere *possibility* of killer deals (and I'm talking about vintage stuff here) is is a large part of why people come to eBay. It's the lure of finding stuff that they can't find in their local stores, yes, of course, but don't discount the savings factor! My customers could buy a vintage widget for $100 in an antique mall or they could bid on a similar thing that starts at $5.00 from me, let's say. The fact that the bidding goes up makes me happy, the fact that it peaks at $60 makes *buyers* happy. Who is more likely to come back----a buyer who feels he got a great item at an excellent price or a buyer who felt he got a great item at about the same price he would have spent down the street at the antique mall?
Don't we all know what it is like when we see a seller in our own personal categories pricing something at waaaaaaaay over what their item is worth and way over what it normally sells for? And we watch as it draws no bids and wonder if the guy selling it is surprised. We feel like he doesn't have a clue. As sellers, we think "Sheesh, doesn't that guy know anything about selling?" Buyers are more savvy than ever and they *also* say this about sellers who come in thinking they will make a killing off ignorant customers. It is not just ebay, the corporation, that kills the goose that laid the golden eggs.
If we limit the number of sellers on the (unstated) assumption that then *we* can get the $100 that is being charged at the malls, or we can get $200 instead, I think you are thinking with one part of the brain but not the other. This is misunderstanding 50% or more of the buyers' reasons for shopping on eBay. That type of approach may have made sellers huge money in the beginning but times have changed, the economy has changed and the buyer base has changed (for a lot of people, anyway...if you are still making money hand over fist with the same things you have always sold and the same approaches, then please disregard my words, you are obviously an exception). if we don't change approaches with the times, that, to me, is a part of the problem that is driving buyers away....and we're going to be disappointed as more and more buyers leave for...where else...the local antique mall. No shipping charges there, and you get to inspect the stuff first for damages.
Much better to keep eBay as a site known for giving buyers great deals, because eBay draws huge numbers of customers who then often spend much more money on things that are wonderful but *not* underpriced (resulting in bidding wars and impulse spending which as buyers we all love.
(why do I always write a book when I sit down to write three or four lines?? insomnia!)
sincerely,
a grumpy buyer/seller
(haven't had my coffee yet, please don't flame me too bad)
[ edited by brighid868 on Nov 29, 2000 04:38 AM ]
posted on November 29, 2000 05:40:27 AM
I don't think a cap on sellers would be fair, but I do like Packers idea of separating the new from the used/old.
I know that if there was a cap on it I would rather see someone with collectibles get in than someone selling 5,000 booklets or CD's on how to get rich on ebay.
I went into Antiques and Art yesterday and saw brand new satsuma vases. Maybe ebay just needs more help to prevent this sort of thing.
posted on November 29, 2000 06:17:38 AM
As much as I would just love to sqelch any more competition, that idea is just outright un-american, unfair, and well...stupid.
In the early 90's I ran a very successful Wednesday night cardshow. I decided to cap the tables at $35.00 and the only hook to the dealers I gave was that they had to pay one week in advance to keep their table.
No other hooks or qualifications. The thought was," If this works, don't tinker with it."
At the time I was making loot and the dealers were all making tons of loot.
Well, the dealers that didn't get in started to plot. They bribed a couple of my dealers away and started a rival show two blocks away.
At first things held but then the crowds started to split and then all of the dealers started to wither from split sales.
Quality went down across the board and then the crowds stopped coming as both shows frankly sucked.
This is what happens when you "CAP" things.
Everything has its up and down cycle. You just can't mess with it. I'm sure if you have great product at great prices with great service the customers will find you no matter how many listings there are.
Plus, more and more bidders use AW's search engine or onsite search engines anyway.
posted on November 29, 2000 06:48:00 AM
The idea has no merit; Non Exclusivity is one of the most central features to ebaY's success.
Would you care to propose a similiar limit of buyers? It would make about as much sense.
posted on November 29, 2000 07:44:52 AM
I think a cap on the number of sellers is one of those "be careful what you wish for" kind of ideas.
I've read thread after thread here on AW where people complain about the large quantities of new, mass produced items for sale on eBay, and how much harder it is to find the odd and unusual items today than it was in the past. If the sellers of all this new merchandise are making money (and one must assume they are, as they continue to list), there is not much of a chance they will risk losing their spot at the table under any sort of proposed seller cap.
What would more likely happen is that the occasional seller who is clearing out junk that he no longer wants ( junk, as in "one man's trash is another man's treasure" ) might find that running auctions regularly enough to hold his place is not worth his trouble, and just drop out. Potential new sellers, who are trying to clear out an estate, would not be likely to wait for months (years?) for an opening to sell, and all their things will end up for sale elsewhere.
The net effect (IMO) would be a decrease in the number of smaller, casual sellers, and an increase in the number of large "retail" sellers, percentagewise. As far as attracting more buyers to eBay, I'm not sure that would be a good thing (how many sets of ginzu knives or "How to make money selling on eBay" cd's does one person need?), but I suppose everybody will have their own opinion about that.
I believe that supply and demand works, and tinkering with it in order to benefit one person or group over another is not the path to follow.
edited to remove smiley...
[ edited by mrpotatoheadd on Nov 29, 2000 07:47 AM ]
posted on November 29, 2000 08:41:31 AM
Interesting idea, long_gone. eBay would never let it happen though, because the more that is listed, the more listing fees they can collect--and the more eyeballs for all their banners and stuff on the side.
Plus, the whole idea of selling online with an unlimited number of sellers is what differentiates eBay from the good old fashioned flea market with a limited number of booths.
It all comes down to who can be the best seller. The way eBay works should weed out sellers who for whatever reason can't compete profitably. The burden is on the seller here.
There ought to be a good way to organize eBay, tho, so it is better for sellers. Packer had a good suggestion, maybe, it's a good starting point for brain storming--seperating the old and the new. Heck, they did it with eBay motors. But is that really going to help?
posted on November 29, 2000 01:16:24 PM
Good afternoon, Back from the flea market. did ok but there wasn't as much traffic as I expected for what may be the last nice day for a while.
While were on the subject of the market I think its a good time to relate that the market I go to has been there for about 35 years. (there are actually 2 markets right next to one another) it is expanded as big as it can get. These are VERY desirable markets to set up at. On Sundays 95% of the tables are reserved. In peak season there is usually a line of about 15 to 30 cars lined up by 6 am hoping to get one of the 10 or so spots that may be available. Some will simply not get spots. This is the way it has been for years. The market has no more land to expand on. I talk to the owner occaisionally. He is not interested in expanding even if he did have the land. He is content to sell out each week and is doing well enough that he is apparently satisfied with his income. Not everyone is so imbibed with capitalistic spirit that they are compelled to glut themselves until they pop. But thats another topic. One time I got up at 3am and got to the market by 4. I thought I would be first in line and be guaranteed a spot. I was 4th in line and ultimately did not get a spot. A small market started in the next town as a result of those who could not be accomodated at the big market. It died, I guess the location just wasn't right. My point is that not all markets expand or even can expand to accomodate sellers who want to be there and if they do it is generally gradual and certainly limited. Every good retail location has merchants who are patiently waiting for a spot. There is another market that is also very popular. It is over 160 years old I believe. It began as a humble farmers market. It is so popular that there is not enough parking for the customers on their busy day (Tuesday). They actually have a shuttle service which brings folks from a resort parking area a few miles away. The township has to pay overtime or hire part time officers just to direct traffic in the area on this day. The township is not fond of this market and actually has attempted to shut it down but couldn't due to grandfathering laws. but they have successfully kept it from expanding however.
It sounds like some are suggesting that retail establishments automatically grow to endless expanses with demand for space. While expansion is certainly common it is certainly not boundless in the real world, and perhaps not on any specific location on the internet either.
Another sentiment that I'm just not grasping, is anyone here suggesting that there is currently insufficient variety on ebay to keep customers attracted!? and if the number of sellers suddenly stood still the variety that is now there would somehow dimminish? If that is correct, I just can't see how that could be. There is (I don't have a figure) certainly hundreds of thousands if not a million sellers on ebay. It's absolutely incomperable to any other selling place on the planet. If not a single seller was added to it I can pretty much garantee the variety and competition would not suffer one micron. There are FAR too many sellers to develop a "clique" or even an organized price fixing plot or any such grouping that would have any noticeable impact. Even within any given catagory. I discover new catagories to sell in everyday and I'm just one in a million.
Every market of any kind has dynamic ratio of buyers vs sellers. In general, when the ratio leans toward the sellers and away from the buyers, the market as a whole suffers. Some individual sellers may do well for a while, but as the market stagnates even they will feel the drop in available revenue. The goal of capping the number of sellers (while still admitting buyers) is to realign that ratio. It is not so sellers can get retail or better prices or so sellers can aspire to domination or to cripple competition. It is merely to revitalize the market as a whole.
Once again, I'm sure many have forgotten that I am NOT advocating or opposing this idea. but for now I'm assuming an open minded posture to EXPLORE it. Also don't forget that this is not just about ant. & Coll.
I am aware, however, that there are many who are quite afraid or un-epuipped to step out of the boundries of there own opinions long enough to garner any kind of enrichment.
Canvid13- point taken but your venture may be too small for a valid comparison. Had you expanded limitlessly, would you have fared any better? wWould it have become unmanageable at some point?
Mrpotatohead- good point about the possibilty of an action of this kind altering the types of sellers. Its not tinkering for the benefit of certain sellers, its tinkering (?) to realign the ratio of sellers to buyers which would hopefully benefit the whole market.
OK, OK I 'll cave in to the overwhelming opinion that it is not an acceptable idea, though I think some of the exception is emotional and not due to reason (I'm ducking!).
That raises an immediate question: Is there, can there , will there be a point at which ebay becomes so saturated with sellers (or just plain users for that matter) that it is just no longer an effective place to do business? Or when/if that happens will the site naturally shrink due to apathy and once again become vital again?
Maybe the whole subject has played out for now or even is pointless. Thanks for taking the time to consider this subject and MOST important, having an open mind.
posted on November 29, 2000 01:47:17 PM
I say leave things the way they are, if there are too many sellers there will eventually be a shake out, I would also hate to see new potential sellers with interesting collectibles not be able to offer them to the public through E-bay. There are a lot more sellers since I' ve joined E-bay, but there are also a lot more customers.
