posted on December 9, 2000 07:53:06 AM new
I just noticed this today. Maybe it has been there all along, but WOW. Sweeping your account daily, and keeping it empty will no longer work with regard to payment reversals. You now authorize them to charge your credit or debit card if there is not enough money in your account and they reverse a payment.
8.Receipt of Payments; Risk of Reversal of Transactions; Collection of Funds you owe PayPal. When you receive a payment through the Service, unless you follow the steps necessary to qualify for our Seller protection Policy described in Part IV of this User Agreement, you are not protected against a subsequent reversal of the transaction. In the event that the sender’s transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. Examples of such a reversal include, but are not limited to, a credit card charge-back by the sender of the
payment, and a reversal of the transaction because the sender of the payment was using a stolen credit card or unauthorized bank account. [b]PayPal will seek to recover the funds from you by debiting your PayPal balance and, if there are not sufficient
funds in your PayPal balance, PayPal reserves the right to collect your debt to PayPal by any other legal means. [I]You authorize PayPal to charge your credit card or debit card in the amount of any debt to PayPal. You authorize PayPal to obtain a credit report on you in the event that you incur a debt to PayPal.[/B]{/I}
posted on December 9, 2000 08:52:47 AM new
Interesting. I wonder how PayPal goes from this, in part:
----- BEGIN QUOTE -----
CyberSource® Powers Industry's First Email Payment Service, PayPal Leading Web-based Payment Provider for Auctions, Internet Groups and Individuals, Drives Growth in New Segment
Mountain View, Calif.
April 12, 2000
CyberSource Corporation (Nasdaq: CYBS), a leading provider of mission-critical eCommerce transaction services, today announced that leading email payment service PayPal has selected CyberSource Payment Services and Risk Management Services to handle credit card payments for its rapidly growing subscriber base.
----- END QUOTE -----
to this, in part:
----- BEGIN QUOTE -----
8.Receipt of Payments; Risk of Reversal of Transactions; Collection of Funds you owe PayPal. "... a reversal of the transaction because the sender of the payment was using a stolen credit card or unauthorized bank account."
----- END QUOTE -----
??????????
A reasonable conclusion seems to be that CyberSource is providing shoddy "mission-critical eCommerce transaction services" in its handling of credit card payments.
Just how does PayPal open accounts for individuals using either an anauthorized or stolen credit card or bank account?
posted on December 9, 2000 10:24:11 AM new
They dont open the paypal accounts with with the stolen credit cards or fraudualent checking accounts.
When Paypal frist started You could open the account by giveing them a credit card the verification was a letter sent to the shipping address you gave them which had to match the billing address for your credit card the letter had a number you went to paypal to verify you received there mail and you were verfide.
after that you could add and delete credit card numbers and no further verification was required this is how you end up with SOME but not all credit card fraud with paypal.
other credit card fraud is done when US sellers started getting email from iternational buyers offering to paythem a fee if they would exsept credit card fees for them some paypal users seen a % of sales just for exsepting credit card payments and frowording money a good deal.
These type of deals are concidered the same as provideing a cash advances to credit card users others were haveing friends send payments with stolen cards makeing these tranaction more like a double fraud and on top of this they got paid to help in these frauds.
Today Paypal verifiys your checking account You can not delete your verifide checking account and add a new one with out reverifiying all over less chance of people haveing access to your checking statement with verifide $ amount deposited by paypal.
posted on December 9, 2000 10:51:50 AM new
Interesting. When I first signed up, sellers were not responsible for chargebacks. Considering that PayPal never tells anyone when they change their TOS, people have not agreed to these new TOS rules and have not given permission.
I can't see how they can now say legally that you've given them permission to make these charges.
posted on December 9, 2000 12:02:05 PM new
This isn't a problem for those of us who are verified, and I have no problem with "verifying" in order to qualify for Seller Protection. I do drawn the line, however, at their recent decision to set the default source of any payment to our verifying bank account without consulting or notifying us and making that fact virtually unnoticeable until one's first "over-balance" transaction has been completed. I will continue to accept payment via PayPal, but I will not be making payment to anyone through it until this particular feature is changed.
posted on December 9, 2000 02:03:58 PM new
But, pickersangel, do you sell small ticket items, and ship first class? If so, you are not protected under the seller's protection program, unless you ship with delivery confirmation, which is not available for first class, only priority, and parcel post. A lot of sellers sell books, or other items without delivery confirmation, and those sellers are NOT protected. Also, electronically delivered goods are not covered, either. Can you imagine having a reversal for a $5.00 book and have it cost YOU $30.00, because paypal passes on the charge back fee?
posted on December 9, 2000 04:35:19 PM new
As you said, it doesn't apply to me. I sell relatively "low ticket" items (mostly $10-15) range, but they're almost all shipped priority with insurance and/or DC. It works for me, because my set up fits the Seller Protection terms. Those who ship without proof of shipping will have to decide for themselves how to handle the situation. A certificate of mailing can be obtained for First Class items which should provide proof of shipment, unless PP's terms state otherwise. $.60 seems like cheap insurance to make sure one is covered by the Seller Protection and that he has proof of shipment, should the buyer call that into question (which is really why I started using DC in the first place, after reading posts from sellers who'd been accused by dishonest bidders). The buyer would have to be able to prove that he received some other piece of mail from the seller in order for the validity of the certificate of mailing to be called into question.
posted on December 9, 2000 04:42:10 PM new
This whole debate is academic because PP has violated its own TOS. Sellers found their accounts restricted over a charge back made several months ago for which they had delivery confirmation but PP never bothered contacting them to produce it. Any seller sitting back complacently thinking they are safe, should read this
posted on December 10, 2000 06:18:35 AM new
A certificate of mailing won't do it. It needs to be trackable on line. I feel bad for all the people who think they are covered, but are not.
posted on December 10, 2000 09:07:41 AM new
Kidsfeet: In case you missed it, I said these sellers had delivery confirmation which IS trackable on line. PP's TOS specifically states that DC is acceptable. But when the charge back came through, PP did not even contact them, they just froze the accounts. One seller I know contacted PP with the DC and was told that DC is not acceptable because there is no signature. After weeks of arguing and pointing out that DC is specifically mentioned in the TOS, she finally "won." Her account was unfrozen but by then she had negs from customers who paid her while the account was frozen and she couldn't refund. The bottom line is with PP there is NOTHING you can do to be safe.
