posted on December 19, 2000 08:48:50 AM new
What is meant by the term "actual shipping"?
In my many years of working in the Direct Mail industry (as a catalog art director & sales director), it always meant that the customer was charged whatever USPS or UPS or FEDEX charged to send the item.
As a 2+ year buyer on eBay, I always look for auctions that charge "actual shipping" since I have no interest in paying arbitrary handling fees. In those cases, I have never been charged more than what it cost to send the item, i.e., $3.20 for a Priority Mail package.
Until this week...
A seller listed his item with the terms of "actual shipping," yet says in his EOA email to me that he charges an additional "handling" or "packing" fee. I questioned this and he said he can add these fees because his auction did not say "actual postage."
posted on December 19, 2000 08:52:35 AM newWhat are your views on this?
As it relates to buying on eBay, "Actual shipping" means whatever the seller thinks it means. As the buyer, if you're not sure, it would be a good idea to ask before bidding in order to avoid an unpleasant surprise.
posted on December 19, 2000 09:08:46 AM new
I believe that the term actual shipping means the cost that the Post Office charges to ship the product, the cost of the dc, the insc. if any, period. (this is what the post office takes to do their job, which would be the shipping to specs.) If a person adds a fee for their preparing of the product, the time involved, packing materials above what they get for free from Priority, then they should state S/H in their auctions, not surprise the bidder in an EOA! Many times, a person cannot add these additional costs to the opening bid of their item, because it just would not get any bids if many other widgets of a like kind are out there. I broke down my time and costs once and it came out to about .30 an hour for my time. Would you work for that in any job? So in my starting bid, I start at the lowest I would accept for this widget and if I only get one bid, I have still made a profit, customer is happy to get a good value, and lots of smiley faces all around. Just last week I overestimated $5.00 over what I seemed fair for S/H and promptly got out a nice Christmas Card, popped $5.00 in it, and sent it out to the winner.
posted on December 19, 2000 09:22:47 AM new
As stated, the term "actual shipping charges" is ambiguous as it's used on Ebay, and if that's the only statement made regarding shipping charges, it's best to ask before bidding.
However, in your case it appears that the seller has expressly tacked on a specific "handling charge/fee" as stated in his EOA notice. This is not allowed according to Ebay, and you may be able to worm out of it by pointing out this URL:
posted on December 19, 2000 09:26:17 AM new
Like you, I had thought it meant the postage charge but the eBay experience and by reading these chat boards I've come to understand it is , at best, an unexact term.
While some still use it to refer to the postage charge other include one or more other costs including packing materials, time charges for wrapping and/or going to the PO etc.
Some may just have different definations and I believe others are intentionally being vauge to add more income to their sales.
Until the auction sites set some standards I think we have to ask questions and assume nothing.
posted on December 19, 2000 09:32:42 AM new
Well, we will never totally agree on this
Personally, ACTUAL COST is just that "Actual Cost"...What the Post Office will charge to ship an item. That is why Ebay has two choices under Shipping: Actual or Fixed.
To me Actual should cover only the Postage, and Insurance, if applicable and DC, if applicable.
FIXED should cover the Postage, Insurance and DC or whatever if applicable, plus [/b] Handling and supply fees if seller chooses to...and that's when I do not buy, unless exceptional item is up....
Many sellers will add .50c or 1.00 for their time...and that's just fine...But lately, the "handling" has become quite excessive...5.00, 6.00 and more in some categories.
posted on December 19, 2000 09:37:53 AM new
Rarebourban,
Unlike you I avoid actual shipping auctions. Or if I am thinking of bidding, I never do so without an email from the seller letting me know what they think actual shipping to my address will be.
To me it is a catch all phrase that can include the latte they sip while waiting for mailboxes etc to pack the item for them at an increased rate.
I never begrudge a seller handling. I pay $2 for shipping and get a 99 cent postage on the envelope. No drama here.
What does make my blood boil are sellers who use the Priority rates as their ship/handling fee and then send it regular mail. I lay into them for that kind of bait and switch.
Oh and I did pay $10 for s/h, thought is was a little high, but the seller FedExed me the package. Who can gripe there?
I have been on ebay for nearly 2 years now, mostly buying. But I did do a gig at a mail order house in cust service, one of too many of those kind of jobs, and know that the price on the envelope doesn't represent the work going into getting it out the door.
Good luck!
Capriole
(only here)
posted on December 19, 2000 09:57:39 AM new
To me, it means "actual" shipping. If I put a $3.00 stamp on the package, then the actual shipping is $3.00.
I do not add for handling, packaging, trips to the post office, electricity, or part of my mortgage payment into my shipping cost.
But, some sellers do. In that case, "actual" shipping is what the seller states up front in their listing. There is nothing wrong with this. If a bidder can make a decision before bidding knowing what the actual costs will be (whether or not they agree with them), then by placing a bid they are verifying that they understand. There are no valid reasons to complain later on.
In some cases, a seller will try to add costs once you have won the auction (insurance seems to be the biggest violation here), or blame the extra on some poor postal clerk. These are simply ways for the seller to either make up for a low bid, or beat some of eBay's fees. To avoid these people, if a firm shipping cost is not included in their listing, ASK BEFORE BIDDING. If they don't offer the courtesy of a reply, then don't bid.
There is really no reason why anyone should get hosed on these costs - there will be no surprises if you do your homework first.
posted on December 19, 2000 10:39:40 AM new
Lots of great responses; thanks to everyone for their thoughts.
Those of you saying "check with the seller before bidding" are right on.... too bad I didn't do that. But IMO it's really too bad that I *have* to do that.
I'd love to see eBay make some rules around defining shipping terms.
Make note, sellers who don't disclose their full shipping terms in the auction: you're losing bidders.
I have no time to deal with nebulous or dishonest sellers, nor time to email every seller who doesn't fully disclose their shipping terms.
There are plenty of local antique shops in my area selling what I might want without the hassle or the wait!
posted on December 19, 2000 10:42:11 AM new
I believe actual shipping to be what the PO charges to send it. However some sellers think differently. I looked at a sellers' auctions last night and the basic shipping charge was $7.95 and went up from there. Whew, there were things I liked but that was outrageous. Some sellers need to get a real job, like robbing banks. Then they could be arrested for what they are doing. Now they are robbing people with no consequence.
posted on December 19, 2000 10:54:41 AM new
rarebourbon ... (boy, would that go down nice right about now!) ... I think the logistics of an eBay rule on stating shipping terms would be very difficult to manage. eBay is an International venue and there are so many ways to ship so many different things to so many different places in the world, I don't think this would be workable.
rarrifle ..."Some sellers need to get a real job, like robbing banks. Then they could be arrested for what they are doing. Now they are robbing people with no consequence."
Not really, if their charges are stated up front. I don't like the price of a new Porsche, but if I want it bad enough ...
posted on December 19, 2000 11:57:22 AM new
I charge actual shipping charges. That means that I charge you what it costs to send the package, plus insurance if you want it.
I guess I could charge a handling fee for taking the time to shred paper, cost of bubble wrap (I have some really neat purple bubble wrap), cost of clear tape (priority tape is free)the time I spend on the computer answering insane or inane questions, taking pictures, cropping, loading, developing auction descriptions, uploading, doublechecking, the time it takes to wrap, pack and take to the post office BUT that is the cost of doing business. Whoa no wonder I don't have time to do much else. <Gee> Besides that would mean I would have to add another column to my spreadsheet and increase my headache in trying to keep everything straight. I believe in the KISS systems - keep it simple stupid.
posted on December 19, 2000 12:46:04 PM new
"Actual shipping" means to me actual cost, actual postage or actual postage cost.
The fact is that some sellers for some reason wish to irritate their customers by trying to make them believe that "actual shipping" encompasses miscellaneous "garbage fees" such as handling, packaging, gasoline and the like.
Sellers who attempt to play semantics games hopefully will be out of business soon. If sellers wish to add in handling charges, etc., then they should state "Shipping and handling will be xxx"; this gives the buyer all the facts regarding shipping.
posted on December 19, 2000 02:16:38 PM new
I agree Actual shipping is just that what it actually costs to ship postage and insurance if asked for.
The fixed shipping is a bit different its a fixed price that may or may not be only actual postage to ship this tells the buyers the postage on the package may be more or less then the shipping they pay.
Fixed shipping may included custom packaging, crateing, feighting, insurance, dilivery comfirmation, I can tell you from my Time selling fixed shipping is the way to go with low profit items it holds down start bid prices big time.
I sell Items with a margin of .75 to $2.50 profit margin before I started useing fixed shipping rates a winning bidder might pay me includeing shipping on a bid $5.50 includeing shipping with time spent list takeing pictures buying batterys for the cameras or useing instant flim when I couldnt get batterys, the time editing listing sending eoas waiting up to a week for payments running out to buy tape and some other last min items for packageing if I had 20 Items sold at that time I spent some three to four hours packing go to the po to find the item was under 13oz and had to be shipped frist class mail $3.20 instead of the $2.00 chared for shipping I had near $7.00 tide up in the item not includeing list fees and fvf fees the buyers were sending me $5.50 I was loseing $2.50 one the sales and giveing a $1 in postage back to the buyer buy the time I would get done I was -$3.50 + ebay fees on many sales.
posted on December 19, 2000 05:00:17 PM new
I really wonder if this is much of an issue because I've never had one buyer ever complain about the defintion of actual shipping. It's a highly fuzzy term. I ship the package to the post office in my car- I'm allowed to include that under "actual shipping." If buyers create a lose-lose situation for sellers by denying them a profit, so be it. Wait until there aren't many sellers left, and be stuck paying sky rocket prices.
posted on December 19, 2000 05:16:18 PM new
Quickdraw: You're right, "actual shipping" is a highly fuzzy term. I've certainly learned my lesson about this today.
One thing, though: as a customer, I shouldn't have to deal with fuzzy anything. I have plenty of cash to spend at my discretion and will always seek dealers who are straight. Quite simply, I have no time to waste with the fuzzies, nor do I want the hassle.
I think the fuzzy sellers will disappear long before the buyers do!
posted on December 19, 2000 05:17:43 PM new
Let's remember too that ebay's term is "actual shipping CHARGES" -- Not sghipping COSTS. Charges means the amount USPS or UPS or whatever charges you, the Seller. Anything else is incorrect. I know some folks don't seem to know that, but it's true nonetheless.
posted on December 19, 2000 07:03:31 PM newmrpotatoheadd...
quickdraw29Wait until there aren't many sellers left, and be stuck paying sky rocket prices....
Those who were already selling 2, 3, 4 years ago and were already honest will remain honest. Those who just arrived on the scene with delusions of grandeur about making a quick buck the easy way, such as making their money of handling fees, will not stick around. I do not consider my buyer to be a stupid person, to be fooled at will. I give my buyer respect and hopefully will get the same from him/her. If something goes wrong, then I do what I have to do.
********************
posted on December 19, 2000 09:30:17 PM new
In the context of most ebay transactions actual shipping means exact postage charges. Generaly any seller who checks this and then charges additional fees is being dishonest. ebay does not expand on this as being obvious, they say "actual shipping" rather than "actual postage" as being general for those who ship by other carriers.
When a priority box is appropriate I will often assume that "actual shipping" means 3.20 (to 2 lbs, etc...), but there is a risk there that seller will add dc or insurance (a bit silly on really low end items) or ask $6.00 for UPS, etc. In extreme they might ask express charges...
The assumption only works on mid scale items where priority is appropriate. On items where 1st class or book rate would be appropriate "actual shipping" without further explanation is poor seller practice as buyers has no idea what to expect. When sellers charge priority rates for something which could easily be sent in an envelope for under $1.00 a lot of buyers feel burned. When item is large or heavy for priority further explanation is usually even more necessary.
+ Including third party professional packing /crating charges as within "actual shipping" for sensitive items is defensible, but usually should be described in terms rather than introduced after the sale.
posted on December 19, 2000 09:47:02 PM newIn the context of most ebay transactions actual shipping means exact postage charges.
It might mean that to you.
It might mean that to most people.
But it surely doesn't mean that to all people.
I had the nicest old lady seller haul my item down to Mail Boxex Etc who told her that it would be $80 to professionally package and ship my item.
In her mind, that was actual shipping.
And she wasn't trying to rip anyone.
I paid. It came packaged in a way that nothing gets packaged unless paid for by someone else's money. I mean, this thing could have fallen off the airplane and surived just fine. The finest of new boxes and wrapping materials. I'm sure that the MBE owner was worth every dime of the $185 per hour that was charged. Experience is hard to find, you know.
She sent me the receipt in a separate package, along with an insignificant part she had left out. She paid for that one herself, and didn't have MBE package it for her.
posted on December 19, 2000 10:23:29 PM new
Just curious, sg52, how much was your final bid? If I ever got an $80.00 shipping charge, I would hyperventilate!
In my opinion, sellers who are selling items at such a low cost that they feel the need to try to pad shipping costs in order to increase their profit margin need to find something else more profitable to sell.
posted on December 19, 2000 10:31:55 PM newJust curious, sg52, how much was your final bid?
$400, the opening bid. I was the only bidder. It was a bargain, even with the $80. I had sniped about $500, and expected shipping in the $30 range. Takes a bit of the sting out of the recollection.
posted on December 20, 2000 06:20:05 AM new
I think we oughta change the subject to politics or religion - we would have a better chance of coming to some kind of agreement
posted on December 20, 2000 08:00:09 AM new
I am what you might call a "newbie" to this selling so am still working on getting the shipping, handling, costs down to a "science" --lol. I try to be fair, and when I see some of the charges for s/h I really wonder about them. However, I recently sold an item and checked out the postage only before I listed it and it was a heavy item which came to $7.20. Since it was so high I did not consider my two trips to the post office,packing and boxing, or even the cost of picture to list item( I am using camera and film) Do many of you consider any or all of these areas in your s/h? And as far as buying on ebay I do check ou the s/h before I even consider bidding and if postage is out of the realm of my experience,thus far, I just don't bid........ I think I am able to figure that out by now and the seller will just end up the loser if people don't buy because of the poatage costs. And if an actual figure isn't mentioned I don't like to bid either, thus avoiding any postage "surprises". I guess I just figure I really need that bad.
posted on December 20, 2000 08:08:46 AM new
Zewelj ... Welcome!
Most of the stuff you mention (film for your camera, etc.) would be considered the cost of doing business, and just like Walmart who have to pay for their electricity to light their stores, these costs need to be factored in to your final selling price.
It appears to me that most people, myself included, have no problem with a seller recovering these costs, either through an increased starting bid or the dreaded S&H charges. I believe we also agree that as long as these costs are stated up front (no after-win surprises), there should be no reason for a buyer to complain when s/he gets the bill.
posted on December 20, 2000 08:18:07 AM new
Dear Zewelj ~
Since you're brand new to the selling game you have every opportunity to start out doing the right thing. This is a good place to look for help!
You already know what you're looking for as a buyer, now provide your buyers with the same service. Be honest and upfront about what you charge to ship something, and you'll attract honest and upfront buyers.
Mail order companies make up handling costs in the price of the product. There's no reason you can't figure in the price of your photos/film into your opening bid price. It's called "overhead" and that's the cost of doing business.
Best of luck in your new business!
Edited typo
[ edited by rarebourbon on Dec 20, 2000 08:20 AM ]
