posted on December 20, 2000 07:43:32 AM new
I just went over to the eBay Community to chat with my friends in the Movies Forum. eBay has blocked my registration!
Why? 'Cause I pissed them off with my stance about their allowing illegal auctions to continue. I'm guessing that the MPAA sent eBay a zinger telling them that I am right.
posted on December 20, 2000 12:03:08 PM new
Hello RB,
Have you received an email yet that explains specifically why they suspended you?
Perhaps eBay took advantage of a minor infraction of their posting rules to put you in line?
eBay is not a democracy and has no Bill of Rights. If you are going to criticize them on their own grounds then best do it as squeaky clean as possible.
posted on December 20, 2000 01:15:51 PM new
Cod ... the email from eBay stated this: "repeat listing of potentially infringing recordings".
The thing that gets me is that I have NEVER listed, sold, or purchased ANYTHING that is either 'potentially' infringing or actually infringing on eBay or any other source. I have way too much at risk to get involved in this type of ativity for the sake of a few bucks (my 4000 tape collection and recording equipment for example). I have asked eBay repeatedly why they think my items may be 'potentially' infringing (talk about a meaningless term!), and when I follow up my arguments by offering to provide affidavits from the copyright owners, the communication from eBay mysteriously stops.
I am convinced that eBay has a mad on for me because I sicced the MPAA on them yesterday in frustration for their knowingly allowing the real infringing item listings to proceed (the copies of stuff taped off tv and rented at the local Blockbuster store). In spite of the typical SafeHarbour kids response that "we took appropriate action", they have done nothing. If the AW guidelines would permit, I could point you to at least 10 active auctions right now that have been reported to eBay 3 or 4 days ago, and the ID's of some of mine that have been canceled by them. Their screwup by going after the wrong member would then be plainly obvious to you and any other AW reader who knows anything about the video tape business.
I am not about to bow down to the eBay Gods to get reinstated, especially when the mistake was theirs. I will, however, continue to scan their listings and report each and every illegal video tape auction directly to the MPAA hotline.
I will not offer eBay the courtesy of a copy of these reports anymore - instead, I will let the true copyright holders deal with the eBay kids. They have lawyers who have a better way of making the point that eBay is abetting some very obvious illegal activity to occur on their venue, which makes them just as guilty as the fraud sellers.
posted on December 20, 2000 03:34:15 PM new
This sounds very drearily familiar.
If I were you, I would show that email to the MPAA. They might be very interested to see how low eBay will stoop to intimidate people into shutting up about abuse on their site.
Congratulations. You now have achieved official whistleblower status.
Print out every piece of correspondence from your computer pertaining to this matter.
Let me go see what the state of California says about protecting whistleblowers.
posted on December 20, 2000 04:20:24 PM new
Already have!
For those who "know" me, you know that I am a respected tape trader who has been enjoying this hobby for almost 16 years. During this time, I have made the aquaintance of many lawyers who know and practice copyright law, and I have also had an opportunity to 'meet' some good people at the MPAA.
It irks me when an organization like eBay, with zero experience in my line of expertise, can accuse me of breaking the law (or "potentially" breaking the law which is really a stupid statement ... "we think you might be guilty, so we'll hang you just in case", and when I challenge them with facts, they cut me off.
I believe trying to help eBay clean up some of these issues, as they are so want to ask us to do, is a waste of time. Perhaps they will regret not taking the advice and help that we are offering in several areas where our knowledge exceeds that of their SafeHarbour kids (video tapes, computer software, and all the other fake and pirated stuff that eBay refuses to deal with) when they end up in court. Each and every one of their directors and employees who have blessed these illegal auctions by refusing to deal with them will be called up to testify.
What are they gonna say ... "we didn't know this was happening because we can't police our site"? The emails that I have sent, coupled with those that I have received from eBay, the MPAA, and even from a legal firm in Beverly Hills will prove otherwise.
It is quite clear that for whatever reason, eBay do not want to deal with these illegal auctions ... they would rather stifle those of us who do care and who are trying to do something to make it safe for buyers and sellers of these types of items.
[ edited by RB on Dec 20, 2000 04:23 PM ]
posted on December 20, 2000 05:47:54 PM new
"Respected tape trader"? There is no such thing as a "respected tape trader" when it comes to the MPAA. And you want the MPAA to get involved with this on your behalf, even though as a trader you have probably been flaunting the same rules the sellers of these other auctions are doing?
Weren't you also the guy who, quite awhile back, tried to auction off his homemade Seinfeld collection? I seem to remember one of AW's more popular suspended members calling you out on that one.
In any case, eBay doesn't really care about you or anyone else in particular...it is simply who complains the loudest first who gets results...someone managed to make a more convincing arguement to a (probably) very inexperienced (hopefully) or very dumb (more-than-likely) eBay CSR.
I personally don't care either way...but I really hate hypocrisy when I see it flaunted.
posted on December 20, 2000 06:14:14 PM new
> "Respected tape trader"? There is no such thing as a "respected tape trader" when it comes to the MPAA.
Sorry, but you're wrong. A true tape trader does just that ... trade tapes. We do not sell any tapes that we have made, nor do we buy any tapes that someone else has made. We trade tape-for-tape or hour-for-hour. It's the only way we can get to see stuff that either airs in other countries or has never been released commercially. As a matter of fact, we do not treat sellers very nicely in our group, same as we have no use for the porn dealers that tend to drop in every now and then.
For your info, since the inception of our circle several members of the MPAA have been invited to our chats to discuss our hobby. Most of us have invested a lot of time in our collections and we are not about to risk them by breaking laws. They have absolutely no problem with what we do as long as we are not selling either material or viewing of the material for a profit. The only time money may change hands is in those cases where someone wants something, they don't have anything to trade, and they pay for the cost of a tape and mailing. This is a 'grey area' in the eyes of the MPAA and their member studios, but so far they have left us alone.
You may want to research some of the copyright laws recently passed (within the last 10 years) in the USA before you attempt to argue this any further. Pay particular attention to the clauses where 'time-shifted viewing' is referenced. It may be stretch, but this is basically what we are doing.
> Weren't you also the guy who, quite awhile back, tried to auction off his homemade Seinfeld collection?
Wrong again! I don't even have any Seinfeld eps in my collection. Sit-coms are not my cup of tea. And, I have NEVER offered a COPY of ANYTHING for sale on eBay or anywhere else. My auctions have all been for original studio released tapes that eBay recently ended citing "potential" copyright infringment, and they include:
- A full cult sci fi series issued by Columbia House re-tv. It was the complete collection, all original, all in CH plastic boxes with artwork and episode descriptions, dubbed by Columbia House at SP from their masters, and it took me 10 months and $300.00 to collect. (what I am trying to say here is they were NOT copies that I made). The auctions I notified eBay about and for which they refuse to deal with were for the same series, but on 2 tapes - very obvious home made, EP dubs of the Columbia House tapes.
- A series of "Not for Review" and "Rough Cut" tv pilot episodes that were dubbed and labeled by UPS, NBC, and Showtime. Again, all ORIGINALS sent to me by the studios --- NOT copies.
> I seem to remember one of AW's more popular suspended members calling you out on that one.
Your memory is flawed
> I personally don't care either way...but I really hate hypocrisy when I see it flaunted
Well, I don't "hate" people that state incorrect facts - I only wish you would do your homework a little better before trying to belittle me on this forum. I also wish that AW guidelines would allow me to state facts ... I would happy to see you eat your words. But, I can't do that without inviting a few other people to this forum - people who have no interest in defending their illegal activities in a public forum for obvious reasons.
Your apology for jumping to incorrect conclusions about me and my hobby would be appreciated however ...
edited to add the word "potential", which I believe is very important in my argument with eBay ...
posted on December 20, 2000 07:15:30 PM new
I am also a tape trader RB! Only thing is Ih ave nothing to trade I guess that amkes me a tape buyer! Do you do double blanks and postage? email me a list of yoru stuff [email protected]
posted on December 20, 2000 08:29:49 PM new
Well if that is the case pertaining to yourself, RB, I apologize for inadvertantly misappropriating facts about another situation I remember here on AW. I just have your ID linked with that situation for some reason, and unfortunately AW's archive doesn't go back that far anymore.
As for an apology to your hobby, sorry, but that hypocritical arguement that tape-trading is not in the same category as the villains of this current tale does not hold water. If you trade a tape to someone, then that person does not need to purchase that tape from another source that is putting out a legal version of the source material. Whether or not it is something that isn't readily available where you are at the moment is fairly irrelevant, but unless you're trading movies or whatever made before 1924 (I believe that is the correct year), you are more than likely stealing from someone who holds an enforceable copyright, and just as culpable as your current targets on eBay.
I agree with you that eBay has committed a wrong here. It's happened before, will happen again, and will continue to happen with impunity as long as they are top dog.
posted on December 20, 2000 09:08:06 PM new
Well TRC ... one out of two isn't bad, and I thank you for that
The issue of tape trading always brings out stong emotions. You wouldn't believe the number of 'quasi-lawyers' that pop up in our group every now to tell us how bad we are. We knock them back down again with facts, including links to the actual judgements where these types of issues have been brought before the courts, then they go away ... kinda like "Whack A Mole" at the circus.
I guess you can lump the discussion of my hobby in with politics, religion, and what "actual shipping" means in an eBay listing ... there never will be consensus (sp??). In my mind, I KNOW what I am doing is legal and I very much enjoy doing it. Unfortunately, the hundreds of fine people I have purchased (legal) tapes from off eBay just won't be able to play with me anymore
Good luck with your auctions, and have a safe and happy holiday.
posted on December 21, 2000 08:12:59 AM new
Hello RB,
"Cause I pissed them off with my stance about their allowing illegal auctions to continue. I'm guessing that the MPAA sent eBay a zinger telling them that I am right."
"I have asked eBay repeatedly why they think my items may be 'potentially' infringing (talk about a meaningless term!), and when I follow up my arguments by offering to provide affidavits from the copyright owners, the communication from eBay mysteriously stops."
You and eBay have been in an ongoing email conversation over the legality of your auctions while you have been after eBay to stop illegal auctions?
I think you need to see a lawyer for advice on whether you have a case against eBay. Perhaps a letter from your lawyer to eBay general counsel would resolve this mess?
posted on December 21, 2000 09:06:48 AM new
Hi Cod ...
"You and eBay have been in an ongoing email conversation over the legality of your auctions while you have been after eBay to stop illegal auctions? "
Yes, we have. Most recently I received an email from "Emmett" this morning. I think he is one of the senior SafeHarbour kids - probably mid-teens to early 20's - based on his writing style and the fact that his response used real thoughts instead of the 'bot responses we have all seen from them. "Emmett" stated that if I sent him a FAX proving that my tapes are legit, he may reverse my suspension. I could use my wife's Mavica to take some photos of the collection, or even send them copies of all the invoices from Columbia House clearly stating that the tapes are legit and that I am the first time purchaser.
But, there is no value for me to do this. Unless I can meet with these kids across a table with our lawyers in attendance, no amount of email communication or FAXED photos is going to help me make my point.
Emmett also suggests that it may be illegal to resell these tapes, in which case there are approximately 6000 auctions on eBay right now for used tapes, DVDs, CD's, and VCD's that should also be ended. Imagine the impact on video joints like Roger's and Blockbuster if they were told they are not allowed to sell 'pre-viewed' tapes from their rental library!
I have politely asked Emmett to point me to a legal opinion, either on his site or any site that clearly states that this is an illegal activity. I doubt very much I will get a response to this specific question.
"I think you need to see a lawyer for advice on whether you have a case against eBay. Perhaps a letter from your lawyer to eBay general counsel would resolve this mess?"
It's not really a 'mess'. My activity on eBay has been primarily as a buyer. I have listed maybe a dozen items over the few months, every one of which has been cancelled by eBay. I suspect another eBay member is telling them false things about my auctions, but until eBay gets over their "guilty until you prove you're innocent" philosophy, I'd just be spinning my wheels asking to be reinstated.
I have, however, notified them this morning of at least 10 current video tapes auctions that are clearly illegal, along with copies of my emails to the MPAA legal staff. On some of these, eBay have been notified 3 or 4 times and the tapes have been sold by the sellers a few times, yet eBay has not taken any action.
I reminded "Emmett" that if he honestly believes that my suspension is justified for listing "potentially" infringing items, then I expect to see similiar action taken against these other members. I also reminded him that I would periodically check to see if any action has been taken against these sellers.
I am sincere when I state that I am not interested in buying or selling ANYTHING that could be construed as illegal. I have too much at risk.
posted on December 21, 2000 09:33:09 AM new
so sorry to hear that. Ebay at least sends out something when you get in trouble. That is more than SOME Bays do.
Some times life just stinks!
, and when I challenge them with facts, they cut me off.
