posted on January 5, 2001 02:36:35 PM
I have had it with stupid *X*$#% ebay buyers. Most are great. As a result of things NOT my fault, December and January were rife with negatives.
MY TOS state that packages are sent ground and that they are not insured. Why can people not understand this? My refund policy is equally simple. Send me back the item that I sent you in the same condition that I sent it and I will refund the bid price.
Example of stupid undeserved negatives:
Guy buys a widget. Package arrives covered in cellephane and ripped packaging. Inside, not the widget but 700 copies of an AMERICAN blank marriage license. Somehow this is my fault.
Guy buys a different kind of widget. USPS gives note to him saying that it is lost. I put a trace (this was one of those packages that could be insured) on it but apparently not fast enough since I get a neg.
Guy buys an expensive widget then claims that I sent him another item from the same class of widget -- one that I don't even own and have never owned. This is akin to buying an apple, having someone send you a Macintosh instead of an empire and then claiming that you were cheated even though the seller has never seen an Empire apple in her life.
Guy buys a widget. Asks about insurance. Explain cost. Refuses to pay for insurance. Item is lost in mail. Files fraud claim saying that I never sent it.
Guy sends cash in the mail saying that having to pay $2 for a money order is too much. It never arrives. Somehow I should send him the widget that I have never gotten payment for. (Under $10).
Guy buys widget. Experiences buyer remorse. Offer refund if I get the item back. Never hear from him until two months later he negs me for not sending him his refund.
Guy buys widget. Never answers emails. Finally file NBP. Never answers that and then wonders why he was negged?
WHY ME??? Is my policy that out to lunch to expect to be paid? Not to refund a $30 item when he says he received an Empire instead of a Mac?
posted on January 5, 2001 02:50:06 PM
Cambercat,
Sorry for your problems, I think we are all getting more of these type of problems. I do not list Pay Pal as an option, and now also put at the end of my description, that I take M.c visa, etc, etc, and then in caps: I do not accept pay Pal. Over 30% of my winning bidders tell me that they are going to pay with Pay Pal, Duh? just makes more work for me, because they didn't bother to read.
I blame it on the dumbing down of America. It will get worse !
posted on January 5, 2001 02:56:55 PMI blame it on the dumbing down of America.
I don't know if it is so much a matter of "dumbing down" as it is the fact that more of the less "able" are finding their way online everyday. Years ago, computers were much more difficult to work with, and getting online was certainly more complicated than it is today.
posted on January 5, 2001 02:58:57 PM
Hello CamberCat,
Guy buys a widget. Package arrives covered in cellephane and ripped packaging. Inside, not the widget but 700 copies of an AMERICAN blank marriage license. Somehow this is my fault.
How does guy know that you didn't mess up and send the wrong item? Did you try to get more information from him and see what had really happened?
Guy buys a different kind of widget. USPS gives note to him saying that it is lost. I put a trace (this was one of those packages that could be insured) on it but apparently not fast enough since I get a neg.
How does the USPS know to give the guy a note saying the item is lost if the item is lost? Where did they get his address from other than the package itself? Sounds to me like this guy was trying to pull a fast one on you.
Guy buys an expensive widget then claims that I sent him another item from the same class of widget -- one that I don't even own and have never owned. This is akin to buying an apple, having someone send you a Macintosh instead of an empire and then claiming that you were cheated even though the seller has never seen an Empire apple in her life.
Perhaps this guy was attempting a switcheroo? Returns lower valued or broken widget for refund and hangs onto the item you actually sent?
Guy buys a widget. Asks about insurance. Explain cost. Refuses to pay for insurance. Item is lost in mail. Files fraud claim saying that I never sent it.
Insurance protects the seller, not the buyer. Don't ever send anything uninsured unless you are willing to eat the cost of refunding or replacing the item. If buyers refuse to pay for insurance then take the option out of play by stating in your listing that insurance is mandatory for items over a certain value.
Guy sends cash in the mail saying that having to pay $2 for a money order is too much. It never arrives. Somehow I should send him the widget that I have never gotten payment for. (Under $10).
As seller you stipulate the payment method. Refuse to accept cash if you think the buyer is going to pretend that payment was sent.
Guy buys widget. Experiences buyer remorse. Offer refund if I get the item back. Never hear from him until two months later he negs me for not sending him his refund.
Anyone who experiences buyer remorse has to be considered a potential doofus when it comes to small matters like returning the item. Just respond to the negative with something like "Buyer remorse. Offered refund upon return. Didn't return so no refund." And move on. These types are not going to hurt your reputation as a seller unless you get multiple complaints along these lines.
Guy buys widget. Never answers emails. Finally file NBP. Never answers that and then wonders why he was negged?
Did the guy neg you in return? If not, simply ignore. If he did then a response worded something like this should do the trick...
"Won but never paid. No response to my emails or NPB Alert."
_____________________________________________
I'm not sure exactly what your policies are other than refund upon return of item and insurance at the buyer's option.
I would certainly stick with the return then refund policy (but not for buyer's remorse) but I would change the insurance policy. And don't sweat the negatives that are obviously from folks who are impatient, overly demanding or just plain vindictive. A reasoned response takes care of them in the long run.
posted on January 5, 2001 03:01:04 PM
What Post Office are these damaged/lost items going through??? Geez, I've sold over 5000 items (I know, not a lot for some of you) and I have never (knock on wood) had a lost package shipped or received by me and only one damaged because of my unexperience with packaging. Am I just lucky or what????
posted on January 5, 2001 03:45:48 PMGuy buys a widget. Asks about insurance. Explain cost. Refuses to pay for insurance. Item is lost in mail. Files fraud claim saying that I never sent it.
If you kept his money knowing that the item was never delivered, you are guilty of fraud.
posted on January 5, 2001 03:51:33 PM
Just my observation, but all these "guy"s sound like the same guy who is targeting you over and over! I feel for ya! Hope it gets better!
posted on January 5, 2001 03:52:16 PM
however, you DO NOT know that the item was never delivered either, so maybe it is the BUYER that is commiting FRAUD!
posted on January 5, 2001 03:59:28 PMGuy buys a widget. Asks about insurance. Explain cost. Refuses to pay for insurance. Item is lost in mail. Files fraud claim saying that I never sent it.
If you kept his money knowing that the item was never delivered, you are guilty of fraud.
We go round and round about this every time it comes up. IF insurance is presented as an option, the buyer's assumption of risk for shipping uninsured items is clearly stated in both your listing and your EOA notice, AND you have documentation of the buyer's refusal to insure, then you're not guilty of fraud, as long as you have proof of shipment. (You do have that, right????) DC is pretty cheap insurance ($0.35, going up to $0.40) against having to fork over on a fraud claim because a buyer chose not to insure and the USPS lost his package. It might not guarantee delivery or reimburse the buyer for his loss, but it will cover your behind if he tries to press a fraud charge. (Quite frankly, I find it very interesting that mostly uninsured stuff with no proof of shipment disappears, but hey, since the shippers in those cases decided against DC, I suppose they felt they could afford to refund on the item if it came up missing.)
posted on January 5, 2001 04:13:20 PM
And again, there is a difference between being guilty of fraud and being guilty of behaving irresponsibly.
A seller is guilty of fraud if that seller keeps the money while knowing that the stuff was not delivered. This isn't very often the case, and proof of shipment is usually sufficient to demonstrate that seller has reason to believe that the stuff was delivered, and thus is not guilty of fraud.
A seller is guilty of irresponsible behavior if that seller refuses to either refund or send a replacement when the stuff is missing. Such a seller can be successfully sued, although the value is not often worth the cost of a lawsuit.
posted on January 5, 2001 04:16:08 PM
so maybe it is the BUYER that is commiting FRAUD!
We're considering an abstract case, with this statement of fact:
Item is lost in mail.
This would seem to rule out buyer fraud.
In dealing with an abstract case such as this, there is also the FACT that the buyer cannot prove the item was not delivered. Without a pattern of the seller's packages not being recieved, this becomes nothing more than he says/she says.
Fraud conviction depends on the prosecutor proving INTENT of fraud. With no prior pattern of packages being frequently lost (no prior pattern of the seller's customers claiming they never recieved their items), coupled with the inability of the buyer to prove he didn't recieve the package, a court would have to find for the defendant as his quilt cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. (and since fraud is a criminal complaint and not civil, that is the standard used)
posted on January 5, 2001 05:09:53 PM
There isnt a judge in the country that would take a case like that, because everyone knows that the buyer is responsible. Heck even the post office will tell you that! lol
posted on January 5, 2001 05:39:33 PM
Forgive me guys ~ but how am I responsible for a lost package in the mail ~ if I state in my auctions that I am not resp., and offer insurance?
posted on January 5, 2001 05:50:51 PM
"There isnt a judge in the country that would take a case like that, because everyone knows that the buyer is responsible. Heck even the post office will tell you that! lol" - Funny how the entity that charged for a service and then failed to deliver is never guilty of fraud. What could be MORE fraudulent????
I just realized I've never read a disclaimer in a Post Office; "Not responsible for anything we do" or "Paying for our services guarantees nothing..."
Don't you wish YOU could get away with everything the federal government does???
re: Marriage Licenses. My 'brown' paper had been torn and most of the package was outwardly wrapped in cellophane. The buyer admitted that it was abviuosly tampered with since the post office would not accept a box wrapped in cellophane.
re: note from post office. I agree that it sounds like a fast one. Apparently all that they had was the paper that the box was in and no box. When I refused to outright refund him until trace was completed, he negged me.
On the next one, definately a switcheroo happening here but he even went so far as file a fraud report trying to cow me into getting his refund.
I have never had many problems with cash and I state that it is at buyer's risk. I know that I will lose alot of bidders if I don't take cash since Billpoint and Paypal are out of the question for me.
I agree with you about not sweating the negs and I never used to until the fools seemed to be coming out in droves.... Potential buyers tend to look at the numbers and not at the reasons.
I am not guily of fraud. I did out the item in the mail. I don't KNOW that it was never received, just have this buyer's word. Items are said to be delivered when put in the mail. I told buyers up front that once I put items int he mail, that I will not be responsible.
posted on January 5, 2001 06:43:04 PM how am I responsible for a lost package in the mail ~ if I state in my auctions that I am not resp., and offer insurance?
Buyer is repsonsible to deliver payment, seller is reponsible to deliver the stuff.
Imagine the situation turned around. I'm the buyer. I respond to your end-of-auction mail saying, "I'm sending cash, if you'd like insurance, I'll deduct $5.00. If you don't take the insurance, you accept the responsibility for the cash lost in the mail".
Like me, you would not agree to such a condition. You'd feel that it was buyer's reponsibility to get the payment to seller.
In exactly that way, it is seller's reponsibility to get the stuff to buyer.
posted on January 5, 2001 10:02:24 PMIf you don't take the insurance, you accept the responsibility for the cash lost in the mail".
You are not supposed to send cash through the mail. One clerk told me it was aginst postal regulations. I tried to find the reulation, but got tired of looking.
I have had several fraud complaints filed against me. As soon as I show my proof of mailing, ie: postmarked DC slip or proof of mailing form. It ends. As far as the post office is concerned I have done my part. If the buyer wanted insurance he should have paid.
As for civil court... A real A**H*** that sells via mail order and ebay had a small claims case filed against him. He sells a variety of things from furniture to books. He sold some carnival glass to someone. They never got it. He had emails showing that they refused insurance. He also had proof that he mailed it. The judge ruled in his favor. I was told by one of the AH's employees that the judge actually reprimanded the buyer for refusing insurance.
Honestly I was hoping the judge would see what a menace the seller is to humankind and put him and jail or something.
I am sure my comments make it obvious that I dislike this guy. Why? He is a scourge.
WARNING: Following is a vent that is only very loosely related to this thread.
You know how some stores have the little containers that ask for spare change for whatever charity. This guy has one in his store, but he made it up. Everyday he empties it to pay for his lunch. He also goes through the huge clothes drop-off bins, that are set up for charities in parking lots (the ones outside malls and grocery stores)for clothing. He then sells the clothing he has taken out of those bins on ebay. He has been caught once in the middle of the night. He quit for a few months, but he is right back up to his old tricks.
And worst of all...My cat hates him.
Boy I feel better now.
edited 'cause my rant made my spelling krazy.
[ edited by shop4shoes on Jan 5, 2001 10:04 PM ]
posted on January 5, 2001 10:32:55 PM
When you mail your packages at the USPS they have a machine that will give you a printed receipt with the buyers City and State on it.
This will show that you mailed it. If you don't get one ask for it. I never send a package without insurance even if I have to do it myself but I just got the new postal rates and insurance is going from 85 cents to a $1.05 for $50.00 or under. This puts a different light on the matter and now I will charge a fee for insurance or at least a percentage but my packages will be insured. I find this very interesting. I insure the package to make sure that it gets there, the USPS looses the package and now they up the rates for their mistakes. It must be the american way. Don't forget your receipt. Take care
posted on January 6, 2001 05:56:48 AMWhen you mail your packages at the USPS they have a machine that will give you a printed receipt with the buyers City and State on it. This will show that you mailed it.
It will "show" that you mailed something to that zip code. It will not show that you mailed anything to that particular address.
posted on January 6, 2001 06:35:13 AM
sg52 said "You can say that 500 times, and you'll still be responsible. "
I am not sure if this is true without checking to verify this, but based on other things I know about a sign being posted meaning nothing, I assume it is probably so.
Signs that say "dog bites". If dog bites a person, you are liable for having a hazard regardless of the sign. Most cities have laws against vicious animals. If they bite, they are vicious.
Most auto repair facilities have a sign saying not responsible for lost, stolen or damaged property. As a former garage owner, I can tell you the sign is worthless in court, all it can do is cow some people into not pressing an issue.
posted on January 6, 2001 08:06:05 AM
We receive an average of 5 negatives each week on eBay (from 2500 completed weekly auctions). Of this 5, approximately 2 each week are from someone who didn't, or says they didn't, get their merchandise at all. (On average, 1 of 5 is for feedback-related issues, and other 2 of 5 are retaliatory in some way).
I suppose our problem is similar to others selling popular consumer items (I sell music CDs). Our mail goes out, it looks like a CD, it's from 'Marie's CDs', it's shipped into a college mailroom or a business mailroom or an apartment complex with unprotected mailboxes and, voila, the item 'doesn't get there'. I can't protect against that kind of problem.
Moreover we are repeatedly (couple of times a month) scammed by people who receive our merchandise, then SAY they didn't get their merchandise. How do we know they got it? The very same item appears almost immediately for sale on eBay from this very same user (or a similar user, who is pretty easily spotted as being a friend or alias for the perpetrator). We had one guy take us (using 4 multiple IDs) for over $400 worth of CDs last month before we got him NARU'd. He was actually creating user names, running up some feedback numbers by bidding and 'winning' his own auctions, then coming to us with added credibility for his delivery problems.
I suppose you cannot ever take the customer at his word, unfortunately.
Off-topic a little: wildest email in a few months: guy complains to us he paid $2.50 for postage/handling but we didn't mail his item to him: we must have dropped it off to him, because his CD was sitting in his mailbox, without a package, just the CD itself in the mailbox. He wanted a refund of the $2.50, and he also wanted to know why we didn't tell him we were dropping the CD off to his house. Needless to say, we did NOT drop the CD off to him, he lives in California like us but he is at the other end of the state. He REALLY thought we dropped it off, and as a result he REALLY thought he shouldn't have to pay the $2.50 s/h.
