posted on January 16, 2001 06:52:02 AM
Here we go!
Yesterday, I posted elsewhere here because I had 6 auctions that had ended around January 1st (one was in mid-December) where the buyers have ignored all of the WBN notices I had sent and had not even responded to the notice eBay sent them when I reported them as a non-paying bidder. I was running out of options and asked what to do. I had never been ignored like this before.
Yesterday, I gave it one last shot and sent hand typed e-mails (not WBN) to each one with the subject line "ABOUT TO LEAVE NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FOR YOU ON EBAY". I then wrote a brief note explaining that I had been trying to reach them for weeks and had no choice but to leave negative feedback if I did not hear from them in 48 hours.
Well, for some reason, it got the attention of three of them and they are ANGRY at ME now!
1. One said she has been out of the country since winning my auction and simply hasn't had time to mail payment. She took me to task in her response for being so mean as to threaten negative feedback. She claims she is mailing a money order today (30 days later.. she was the latest of the non-payers). But does not understand why I would possibly be upset with her and think I'm the bad guy.
(Apparently eBay buyers can take off on vacation as they choose, do not have to send payment until they have returned and unpacked and we have no right to expect otherwise).
2. The second wrote me a long note about what a horrible seller I am, said he got all of my previous e-mails, but has been busy and that he has never had a seller threaten him with negative feedback.
His nasty note went on for paragraphs about how I am the "worst seller on eBay" and now claims he will send payment "when he darn well feels like it" and that he will be leaving ME negative feedback for "threatening him"! and to warn others to never buy from me! I can't believe it!
3. The third got my e-mail telling him I was leaving negative feedback and responded within 5 minutes with nothing more than the word "kool" on his response (misspelled and all)! I was furious since it was obvious that he had gotten my other message also and just didn't give a damn!
I then proceeded to leave him negative feedback (professional, but negative) and he sent me a second note this morning that only says "I sent u the money". No explanation of when, how, etc.
I can't believe this guy! THIS is what he thinks is an acceptable response??? First he says nothing then waits for the negative feedback to claim he mailed me money (I don't believe him for a second).
--
In any event, I am glad to have heard from half of the missing buyers, but they all seem to think I am a horrible person for asking for my late payment!
They truly feel they can respond this way after winning an auction and that I should not be upset of leave them any negative feedback?
Honestly, I am scared of all of them leaving unwarrented negative feedback on my spotless record, but don't see what other option I had.
Is this NORMAL behavior for late payers? I have sold on eBay for a while now and have never had this happen before.
posted on January 16, 2001 07:05:42 AM
Your subject line in capitals, although warranted, does seem harsh--and the deadbeats responded defensively. If you do that again, soften it--imagine yourself in their shoes.
I've found the best way to get attention from a non-paying bidder is to just file a non-paying bidder form on them--let eBay do the dirty work.
As said in my post above, I had already sent them several WBN noticed AND had already had eBay contact them as a non-paying bidder and they still did not respond.
All eBay does it send out that one "reminder" e-mail until I ask for a final value credit in 10 more days.
Obviously, three WBN notices and a warning from eBay didn't get their attention. I fail to see why I should have softened the subject line of my last message.
I used caps to get their attention and it seems to have worked.
Do you feel they deserve to be upset with ME after not paying for their merchandise and ignoring both my and eBay's requests for payment?
posted on January 16, 2001 07:14:50 AM
Agreed (with mzalez). Your subject line put your delinquent bidders on the defensive. If you want to email them one last time before filing your NPB, you may want to try saying "Final Notice" or "Reminder that payment has not been received".
Many sellers will tell you to just file the NPB, which is fine. Personally, I send out an email that just says I have not received their payment & that I am preparing to file with eBay to recoup my fees & that if they still want their items to contact me ASAP. 48 hours later (if no contact) I file NPB, 10 days later I file for FVF & leave a neg. I've never been negged back (knock on wood)...
[ edited by debbielennon on Jan 16, 2001 07:16 AM ]
Edited to add:
If you already filed NPB there was no need to tell these people you were getting ready to neg them--if they intended on paying they would have contacted you. If they fail to respond to an NPB just wait the 10 days, file your FVF & neg 'em!
[ edited by debbielennon on Jan 16, 2001 07:19 AM ]
posted on January 16, 2001 07:27:00 AM
I have found that there is something about telling them you are going to leave a neg...brings out the worst. I guess it sounds like a threat, even when the seller intends it to mean "heads-up, please reply before it's too late!"
I am sitting on one total non-responder right now. Probably he is already NARU. He hasn't answered any communications so this week I will just leave a neg and get my money back.
posted on January 16, 2001 07:27:22 AM
I'm sorry to hear that you are having these difficulties Ryinn! I imagine that most of us here have had similar problems with non-resposive bidders. I know I have. The problem is you want the payment more than they want the item. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that they genuinely wanted to make the purchase when they bid but I think many on ebay are just thrill bidding. They love the feeling of outbidding someone. Anyone who responds to a threatened negative with "Kool!" is probably in this category and most likely a teenager or someone who just never grew up. Many never respond to e-mail whatsoever. It's just unheard of! In my end of auction e-mail I always ask for the winner to write me back with their name and mailing address. This lets me know that they have received my letter and helps me to prepare their package for shipping. I can't tell you how many times they respond with a one line e-mail saying they got my message and only their first name. They refuse to give out their mailing address in an e-mail. Usually it turns out to be a woman buyer who is perhaps leery of sending the address or a new ebayer who just hasn't caught on yet.
I know exactly how you feel as many times I wanted to send the same type of e-mail to my non-responders but refrain from doing so because I know I'll have the same result as you. I wish I had the answer for you but I don't. If it's been a month I would go ahead and file my non-paying bidder form as there is no need to pay ebay any more than you have to. Then leave the negatives you feel are warranted in a non-emotional factual manner. Picture Mr. Spock leaving HIS ebay deadbeats their negatives! Then go ahead and re-list the items if appropriate or offer to the underbidder if possible. Don't let it get you down as these things seem to be a given on ebay if you list in any quantity. Good luck!
James
posted on January 16, 2001 07:39:34 AM
Don't fret about the sarcasm and nasty
responses.....when they are in the wrong this seems to be the typical response of bad buyers. Been there, had headaches and just decided it isn't worth the aggravation.
Move on and enjoy.
Zilvy....
posted on January 16, 2001 08:53:41 AM
ANY email you send to these characters is going to "put them on the defensive", since they just want you to go away. So they decide to make YOU the bad guy. Typical.
I don't understand why you contacted these people at all after you filed NPB. Clearly if they don't respond to the ebay email, they're not going to follow through on the deal. All your follow-up emails do is waste YOUR time.
posted on January 16, 2001 09:04:06 AM
Thanks for the support guys!
HartCottageQuilts,
I contacted them again for two reasons:
1. The NPB message eBay sends is VERY softly worded and is no where near as harsh as it should be. It kinda says "Please think about paying because we really don't like when people don't pay". I don't feel that is strong enough.
2. The advise I got here and elsewhere yesterday was that I should try one more time to reach them and let them know they WILL get negative feedback if they don't respond.
posted on January 16, 2001 09:08:03 AM
You had better be careful, this could EASILY be deemed "Feedback Extortion" by safeharbor and you could get permenently suspended if one of those bidders complains.
Like the other posters said, I would have simply put "Final Notice: Must receive response regarding XXXXX within next XXXX days"
Then in the message state that if you don't hear back/receive payment you will pursue requesting your comissions refunded and other avenues available to you as a seller.
In no way would I threaten them with negative feedback. It's unfortunate, but as we all know, eBay protects the buyer and not the seller, and it could so easily be turned against you and you suffer the consequences of the so-called "threat", and not the buyer.
Yes--STILL leave negative feedback after filing the FCV, but DO NOT threaten them with it.
Good luck. (I know how you feel. I have been running between 9% and 25% (depending on category, total average of around 15%) for deadbeats on over 400+ closed auctions since November 1st. Before this I had probably a max of 2.5% deadbeats over 800 closed auctions the last 3 years.)
It has gotten HORRIBLE, pure and simple, and there's nothing we can do about it.
PS: Be sure to leave negative feedback RIGHT AWAY as you file the FCV.. I've lost the chance to leave negs for about 5 people since November as they've either unregistered themselves (to avoid negs) or have received 4 FCV requests and gotten auto-suspended. You can't leave a neg once they go unregistered.
[ edited by mrlatenite on Jan 16, 2001 09:12 AM ]
posted on January 16, 2001 09:15:01 AM
Of my 45 auctions which closed 12/27, I have 3 no pays.
So, yesterday, before I file the first notice with EBAY, I e-mailed each one.
Subject line is name and item number of the auction
Hi, I haven't received payment for the above auction. Is there a problem? Thanks, Victoria
Of the 3, 2 responded almost identically. (Number 3 blew me off entirely)
Hi, No there isn't a problem. I mailed the payment last week.
Well, that's quite a while after the auction ended, and 42 other people who, including a lady in the UK, managed to get their payment here before now. I'm willing to wager neither respondedt mailed payment either, but they probably will now.
Sometimes people admit to forgetting, which is fine by me, it's not like I never forgot something in my life. These people always send payment the next day. I usually even leave positive feedback for them.
It's the ones who insist that payment was sent (funny, I have yet to receive a duplicate payment)and today they'll send another, or go into a long story of illness and/or computer failures that get me.
These people get no feedback.
I save negative feedback just for the ones who blew me off. Like my number 3 today.
Edited cause I don't use UBB very often, and I forgot how.
[ edited by victoria on Jan 16, 2001 09:20 AM ]
[ edited by victoria on Jan 16, 2001 09:37 AM ]
posted on January 16, 2001 09:28:39 AM
mrlatenite, you stated it very well. Threats against an eBay user are against eBay's rules, as are all statements which could be interpreted as threats.
Never threaten to leave negative feedback when a buyer does not pay or respond to your email.
State in your auction in a clear, matter of fact way how long you are willing to hold the item after the auction. You can, if you wish, email any late payer and offer an extension period, perhaps of another 7 days.
Remember to keep hard copies of all correspondance.
If this hasnt worked, then file your credits. I personally do not leave negative feedback at the time I file the NPB alert but wait until I apply for the FVF credit.
No nastiness required on anyones behalf.
posted on January 16, 2001 09:29:54 AM
Threatening to leave negative feedback if they do not pay their bill is not feedback extortion in any way. It is the definition of what feedback is for.
Feedback extortion is threatening to leave negative feedback for not getting special treatment or discounts or extras.
posted on January 16, 2001 09:47:05 AM
I've got one now. No reply to my WBN and 2 emails. Still no reply on the ebay NPB form. I'm going to leave a neg soon. Maybe then I'll here from him. There are some real winners out there.
posted on January 16, 2001 10:52:54 AM
Feedback extortion - Demanding any action of a fellow user that he or she is not required to do, at the threat of leaving negative feedback. ( "Even though it didn't reach reserve, sell it to me for my bid or..."; "Pay me $100.00 or I will..."; "Sell me all of the Dutch items or I will get all of my friends to..." )
Telling an eBay buyer who is ignoring your requests for payment and that you will be forced to leave negative feedback for them if they don't complete the transaction they agreed to doesn't sound like "Demanding any action of a fellow user that he or she is not required to do".
The buyer IS REQUIRED to pay for items they have won via an auction. My telling them I will be leaving negative feedback if they do not do what is required of them is NOT extortion, it is stating the rules of eBay and that I plan to use the feedback system AS INTENDED if they don't pay.
In my opinion, I am being honest and giving them one last change to make good on their commitment.
First, take EVERYTHING you read on this message board with a grain of salt (Including my statements!). WE ARE NOT EBAY SUPPORT.
We are only offering what we feel are the intrepretations we believe people will make based upon the situation.
As much as I've loved doing it in the past, and would love to in the future, I must restrain myself from ever "threatening" an eBay user with anything. I believe there have been multiple other discussions here where sellers have been suspended through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN due to some strange intrepetation of some obscure statement in the eBay terms of service agreement, or simply made up to suit the situation.
I am not a laywer, but I have enough common sense to imagine that the statement that you made to your bidders can and could easily be construed as extortion or a non-physical threat, which could cause eBay to suspend you for some violation *IF* a bidder complained.
These days in life, AND on eBay, you need to be responsible for your own actions and take the high road and unfortunately "Suck it up", otherwise you leave yourself open to retaliation, EVEN WHEN ITS NOT YOUR FAULT!
Realize that by selling on eBay in any form, for any reason anyone could in turn sue you for some strange reason and you'll have to pay for representation for such a suit, even if you've done everything right. It's just a fact of life in the litigious/"i've been wronged" world we live in today.
You've already proven you're dealing with short tempered, irrational people, I wouldn't put anything past them. Simply state the facts, be unemotional, and do not threaten anything. Follow the rules, leave negative feedback without threats, and then if they complain, you can rest assured you followed all the rules with nothing left "for intrepretation".
posted on January 16, 2001 11:09:17 AM
No, that is not feedback extortion. Feedback extortion is making a threat in order to get a buyer or seller to do something OTHER THAN what would normally be expected. (Such as "Give me a refund without expecting me to return the item, or else I'll neg you."
On the other hand, I agree that you should re-word your e-mail. As a seller, I will do one followup e-mail to a non-paying bidder asking about status, etc -- because sometimes a payment may have gone astray (it happens), and then I will go through the NPB process. I do not have the time or inclination to make my collection efforts a drawn-out affair. Once I start feeling like threatening folks, I have to acknowledge that it is about "winning" and "control," and actually that is NOT where I want to expend my time and energy. I would rather re-list the item and have it go to someone who really wants it. And yes, I will leave negative feedback where warranted.
posted on January 16, 2001 11:09:53 AMRyinn, what exactly do you want to acomplish with these emails? If you really want payment, you should tone it down a bit. The email you sent is rather likely to make your bidders angry and/or defensive, and once someone gets mad at you, your chances of getting payment drop to slim or none. If, however, you just wanted to vent at them, your email works admirably.
I really like debbielennon's idea (and just may swipe it myself).
posted on January 16, 2001 11:20:16 AM
mrlatenite-- I agree with you, although I agree with both sides I believe 'self defense is the best offense'. I lived in Florida for 20 years where there are more lawyers than grapefruits, and you become very conscious of that(unfortunately). It is the perceived threat, whether intended or not. Sort of like the 'sexual harrasment' issue (please let's not go there). If someone finds it offensive then it is.. It's not fair it just is. I always try the soft touch, this month it's "I'm trying to close out the year to keep my accountant from beating me up, could you check your records and see if your payment was sent as I have not received it blah, blah and always a Thank You" usually it works, sometimes not and I move on.
I think the risk of on-line buying and selling has finally caught up with you. Although I believe this method of acquiring and parting with material goods is a little more natural and realistic for people than fixed commercial retailing, there is greater potential for exposed vulnerability on both sides. Face it, all communication is done via email (with people you can't see) which when trouble strikes, to be quite honest, really stinks! I would rather appeal my problem to a "warm human body" standing across from me rather than sending off my complaints electronically with the clickity-clack of a computer keyboard. Yet, that's the world we live in. Although I'm not real new to on-line auctioning, I read through much of the newbie literature posted on Auctionwatch.com. They provide some very balanced and reasonable advice on how to deal with the kind of pickle you're in. You will have to go to a little extra trouble in safeguarding your auctions as there are several ways you can protect yourself, I was surprised to find. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a great many sellers don't know that! If you care to take some time and read through "the tome" they have on their website it may serve you well in future crisis as you will have them. Above all, don't get discouraged and give up. Among all the bad buyers and sellers out there, remember the good ones outnumber them fortunately! God bless and take care!
I think my action is being judged solely on they subject line I used and NOT the content of my e-mail which I did not share. It said:
----
Hello,
I have now written you several times about your winning bid for my auction on
eBay for XXXX.
Your bid was $X plus $X shipping.
Unfortunately, you have not responded to any of my messages nor have I received payment.
If you do not respond and send payment for the item you purchased, I will have no choice but to leave negative feedback and contact eBay since you did not fulfill your obligation.
PLEASE, contact me IMMEDIATELY to complete this purchase.
If I have not heard from you in 48 HOURS, I must assume you do not intend to purchase the item and must proceed with the actions above.
PLEASE contact me so we can avoid this and I can ship you your merchandise.
Thanks!
-----------
Was THIS message nasty? I know my subject like was harsh and in caps, but I was trying to get them to open the e-mail and read it.
My GOAL was to get my money from these people. I pay my bills early and have never bounced a check or not made good on a financial commitment in my life!
I am truly put off by people who bid on merchandise, promise to pay, LIE and don't send payment for merchandise they agreed to purchase.
I also do not like to relist items that I already thought I had sold and would much rather try and get the original bidder to make good on what I consider a broken promise to me.
posted on January 16, 2001 11:45:57 AM
YOu seem very fond of your e-mail so continue to use it if you like. You have been given advice to the contrary.
There is nothing wrong with a followup e-mail or two, but there comes a point where trying to "make" your bidders come through is wasted effort and only leads to mutual aggravation. Learn where and how to cut your losses and move on.
I recently had a lackadaisical buyer, too, who wouldn't respond to my e-mails until I sent it asking for a Return Receipt. (I use Outlook Express.) He responded and paid up via PayPal.
But, he tried to short me $1.00 on the shipping. Ah, the little darling..... Fortunately, it was a book, so I sent it Book Rate with delivery confirmation, which added up to the exact amount he paid. My evil side took a little pleasure in writing him to expect delivery from Hawaii in 4 to 6 WEEKS. (Gave him the tracking number so he can follow it as it goes from slow boat to slow boat.)
If you haven't yet written back to these people, my advice is to do so in a simple, matter-of-fact style that is devoid of emotion---the Mr. Spock suggestion was great. Fact: you contacted them numerous times. Fact: they did not respond to you or Ebay. Fact: you wanted to give them one more chance. Fact: they did not respond. Fact: you wanted to warn them before leaving a neg. Fact: they took offense at that and are now trying to blame you for their lack of response. Fact: no offense was meant, but your patience was stretched to the limit. Fact: (okay, here you have to decide....) the transaction can now be completed, OR the transaction is cancelled.
One more fact: life is too short to let these people get to you. All businesses have problem customers and ours is no different. But, you have a procedure in place to deal with it (NPB, refund of FVF, and leaving negative feedback). Realize this will happen sometimes and just follow the plan when it does.
posted on January 16, 2001 11:54:18 AM
I send 1st EOA same day auction ends, if no response in 3 business days, I resend. If no payment or response within 14 business days, I send a final notice requesting payment status. If no response or payment, NPB. I spend as little time as possible on deadbeat bidders, as it doesn't pay.
posted on January 16, 2001 11:55:22 AM
I agree with Lisa_B... Cut your losses and move on.
Just be sure to send short reminders at a regular interval, just so you can back up anything should they balk at you filing a FCV or leaving a neg.
For non-responders (no replies at all), I do a followup 3 days and 6 days after the auction, then file a NPBA on the 7th, then follow up 1 or 2 more times between the 7th and 17th day after the auction. Each with a little less friendliness but short and sweet. "I still havn't heard from you, please respond within the next 3 days so that we can complete your transaction successfully and you can get your item sooner". On the 17th day, still no word, I FCV them and neg them and move on.
For stringer-outers (people who keep saying "paying going out tomorrow, or people who keep changing stories, etc..), I just stretch these times out by about 2. After 34 days or so, the FCV is filed and neg left, especially if they havn't responded to the last emails.
Yes, I make some exceptions, but I never beg or threaten.. just ask for them to respond to get THEIR item to them faster. The last email is worded to the effect of "It's been xxx days and I havn't heard back/received payment as of yet. Please reply or get payment to me in the next 3 days or I will be requesting my commissions refunded and relist the item. Thank you for your attention to this."
90% of the time, I still dont hear back, and simply resell the item.
If the words you post here are the very same message as your email to your deadbeats, I personally wouldn't consider it nasty, threatening or inflammatory speech. Actually, no matter what you send a true and decided-to-be deadbeat (whether a seller or buyer) if they aren't going to comply, they simply are not going to comply, end of story! A message as the one you present here may get you their raised index finger with a few 4 letter words or even if it was a toned down "polite" reminder you'd still get the middle finger and probably a chuckle..."SUCKER!" They aren't going to change by a puny email from you the auction host. In their minds what separates you from them is a CRT, a safe invisible sea of electrons, and the false sense of security they won't be found out or caught. Someday, maybe not your day, they will get caught. It's only a matter of time. However, if you try and get tough with them they just might retaliate which is a risk you need to realize and decide whether to take or not. It sounds like in this case you took the risk. The concern here is protecting the good feedback data and even membership of a good and honest seller (which you appear to be) from that of a bad buyer. Like you, the moment the seller contacts me, that very day or soon after a check or M.O. is in the mail. I do this for 2 reasons: 1)I honor the fact the seller to a risk in selling to me a complete stranger; 2) I want no debt.
posted on January 16, 2001 12:08:13 PM
Hi all,
For what its worth, after NOT getting an email response from the buyer after a week, I then send him/her a COPY of my original notice to them. Most of the time I receive a response & promise for immediate payment. If I still do not receive payment after 7 to 10 days, I send them a copy of the auction & tell them I have not received payment as promised & a "PLEASE ADVISE" as to status. I also do the NPB step to make sure that the buyer knows I am not doing layaways! If no payment after that, it all goes downhill for the buyer and I take appropriate steps. Some times I get a retaliatory neg but "oh well", I refuse to be scared into not warning the rest of the sellers about a NPB. Just my 2¢.
