posted on January 17, 2001 11:01:38 PM
Well everybody it's been fun.
As of about 10:00pm this evening our favorite computer company indicated they filed for bankruptcy.
As I'm sure many of you have surmised by now this whole Alien encounter was most likely a "bustout" from the start.
They took what appeared to be a legit company ran up it's lines of credit (ie your money) then milked the company coffers dry with fat paychecks and unnecessary expenses only to file for bankruptcy with the expressed intentions of leaving it's creditors out to dry.
I would suggest anyone who paid by credit card (even if it was Billpoint or paypal) to file a chargebackwith their issuing bank immediately before you are formally listed as a secondary creditor in the court proceedings (and becoming entitled to essentially squat)
When you file a chargeback your bank will immediately issue a provisional credit, this provisional credit is federal law do not let you bank tell you otherwise.
Most times in cases of non delivery the provisional credit will become permanent.
While your chargeback is under investigation you will not pay interest on the money charged to your charge account and if the money was debited from you checking account (if it was a debit card with a visa or mastercard logo) you will have full use if your funds while the matter is under investigation.
I would suggest you ask your bank to FAX the documents necessary to you and you overnight them back cause time is obviously of the essence.
Good luck everybody!
Sincerely
Kevin Matte
[ edited by unitedci on Jan 17, 2001 11:10 PM ]
posted on January 18, 2001 08:56:26 AM
Out of curiosity, I went to the buyers' "club" on Yahoo, http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aliendistribution, and there is some disbelief that the bankruptcy announcement is legitimate. Interested to see how this plays out.
posted on January 18, 2001 09:02:01 AM
athena1365,
I have deleted your post because of vulgar language. Even though you used asterisks, it is not appropriate for our forum. Please familiarize yourself with the CG's before posting again.
posted on January 18, 2001 09:13:30 AM
I am VERY UPSET... I did NOT see the previous thread to know that it was a USER and not some FINANCIAL INSTITUTION that you are discussing.
The part about "even folks using BILLPOINT and paypal" made me feel as though I would risk having chargebacks to my accounts from various parties.
Folks that don't have time to read every single thread here are at a disadvantage when subsequent threads on similar topics appear with THREAD TITLES and posts that are not clear or misleading.
I'm relieved that I am NOT effected by this... but worry that other "lurkers" might have also gotten the wrong impression... that somehow the on line payment services that they are registered with, would be stickin'em with a bunch of chargebacks.
posted on January 18, 2001 12:01:02 PM
I'm really surprised there is so little interest in this thread.
About 5 years ago I was a victim of a scam (lost $500). When I read the original thread I was reminded of certain similarities. I thought I was dealing with a reputable company (in business for over 30 years, member of local BBB, etc.), professionally produced, slick advertising materials,etc.
When I became suspicious and snail-mailed a query, the letter was ignored. When I found out my money order had been promptly CASHED and not deposited into a business account, I knew that something smelled. I pressed for a refund (and made some promises about what I would do if I didn't receive one).
The owner quickly phoned me with a somewhat plausible story and he sounded like a "nice" elderly person. However, instinct told me that I was being strung along so I demanded a full refund and kept repeating the demand during the conversation until he agreed. He said there would be a slight delay and gave what seemed then to be a plausible reason. I agreed... and I waited for the refund to arrive in the mail. Of course, it never did.
The end of my story is different than the Alien Distribution story. There was no bankruptcy - in my case the owner committed suicide about a month after our conversation. After his death it was discovered that there were over 1,000 complaints about him and his company filed with the local BBB.
Why am I telling this story? A warning, I guess. Trust your instincts when things begin not to make sense. Don't WAIT like I did and what Alien Distribution's buyers did.
posted on January 18, 2001 01:28:02 PM
From their web page:
"All pending order customers are considered secondary creditors in this bankruptcy reorganization."
I didn't "win" anything from AD (thank goodness) but I read with interest the original thread as it unfolded. I'm not an attorney, but it seems to me as though this is an abuse of our bankruptcy laws. It looks like they are going to get away with not having to issue refunds.
posted on January 18, 2001 06:35:36 PM
Who is Alien Distribution? Never heard of them not the first time I am out of the loop and what has Yahoo got to do with it?
posted on January 18, 2001 09:58:39 PM
My credit card account has been "conditionally credited" the full amount +intrest. Im just waiting to see how this chargeback pans out and how long it will take. Im am skeptical about this "bankruptcy". Im not so sure that "Alien Distribution" is a real company anyway. It seems that in previous posts on here and on Yahoo, that money orders & checks were made out to an individual, not Alien Distribution. It is not hard to have a web site and start selling stuff on auction sites under a name they just made up. I can definately imagine them pulling this stunt to make people think "oh well, I got screwed, live & learn, guess I'll just have to cut my losses and move on". I don't know how to verify this latest info but if someone has a clue, please check it out. These guys are slippery and have lied to us all throughout this mess. Actually, a few people should check this out because you know they are reading this so what's to keep them from from using one of their 1001 alias's and posting info here saying "yep, its true"?
posted on January 18, 2001 10:08:00 PM
Sorry to hear this news. If true it is unlikely anyone can reverse charges. It is worth a try but unless the bank messes up they won't allow a charge back. Also previous charge backs are also in jeopardy as the bank never accepts the loss. Either the merchant or customer has to in a charge back situation. I had a similar experience before. I wish you all the best and remember it is only money and not nearly as important as some things in life.
posted on January 19, 2001 01:36:38 AM
It is my understanding that a credit card payment offers you limited consumer protection against scams like this - or at least *some* credit cards do. Even if the company is "bankrupt", if you don't get your goods, you can get a chargeback from the bank/credit card company.
I thought that was part of why we pay the fees for the privilege of using the credit cards.
posted on January 19, 2001 04:13:22 AM
Mivona, you are right. It doesn't matter if a company files bankruptcy. If a cardholder is entitled to a credit for non receipt of merchandise, the issuing bank will issue a chargeback. However, you need to send a letter to your credit card company within XX days of promise to deliver. I think it is 60, but it may have changed.
It is the merchant's bank responsibility to collect the money from the merchant. If the merchant files bankruptcy; the merchants bank takes a loss. However, the bank will deny the chargeback for any reason possible to avoid taking a loss. If the chargeback is processed one day late for example, the chargeback will be kicked back to the issuing bank.
I was a chargeback supervisor for 7 long years. Filing for non receipt of merchandise is pretty much cut and dry. Either you did or did not receive the merchandise. It is up to the merchant to provide proof of delivery. Even if you were billed lets say 8 months ago, if the merchant promises and promises he will deliver by xx date, that date falls into the time period of writing to your bank for a refund. Things may have changed a bit in the past couple of years, but I think that sums it up.
posted on January 19, 2001 09:59:53 AM
Hello again Pocono: I really missed this thread. I am trying to follow Yahoo thread, but I don't see many names that I recognise and thrust. I'm grateful to you, Pocono for all of your advice. I haven't received my money back yet, but I did file with Ebay and Paypal on time. Even though I have finally heard back from PP, I'm not certain about what they will do. However, I didn't appreciate being threatened with having my account closed if I do a charge back with my CC company. Of course, I'm taking the fastest and surest route to get my money back! Who needs them when even as late as 1/16/01 they were still excepting payments for AD! They had a lot more notice that something was wrong with AD than I did. They should have never accepted payment from me! Maybe that's why they really try to get everyone to use their checking accounts or money deposited with them instead of cc's. Then they can work with the scammer's like AD without risking their fees and continue to take advantage of all of us unknowing fools!
[ edited by lshorman on Jan 19, 2001 10:18 AM ]
posted on January 19, 2001 10:13:18 AM
I just had a thought. If people were going to PayPal to request chargebacks, wouldn't PayPal have followed its usual practice of freezing the seller's PayPal account but continuing to allow payments (credit card or from buyers' bank accounts) to go into the seller's account? If that is the case, then the money is now under PayPal's control - not under Alien Distribution's control.
posted on January 19, 2001 10:22:49 AM
Pumpkinhead great info. But, 60 days from when? If you file 8 months after being billed when does the 60 days start. From my own, situation I got stuck but it could have been the bank taking advantage of my ignorance. Again thanks for the straight info.
posted on January 19, 2001 10:43:11 AM
Some of you are saying that through paypal/billpoint it would be harder to get money back. I disagree. I am currently in the process of getting a chargeback.
________________________________________
Here is something I disagree with entirely.
Section IV.2.B.i. of the Terms of Use:
"If you have filed a Fraud Report no later than 30 days after the purchase transaction, you may file a Claim with PayPal. In order to file a Claim, you must be a Verified User at the time of filing. PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will restrict the seller's account and seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller."
Give me a break. How can one file for fraud in 30 days when the seller has said to allow 2-4 weeks for delivery? Paypal doesn't seem to even want to support their customers.
__________________________________________
Paypal has their Terms of Use. Within these terms it states their insurance policy. Here's what it says about chargebacks.
Section I.8.
"[the seller is] not protected against a subsequent reversal of the transaction. In the event that the sender’s transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. Examples of such a reversal include, but are not limited to, a credit card charge-back by the sender of the payment."
Obviously paypal deals with credit card chargebacks, and takes it directly to the seller.
_________________________________________
Alien was not authorized to take our money without sending us anything. Up to $100,000 of protection? I didn't get one cent back. Here's what paypal says:
Section III.1.:
"PayPal protects Users from unauthorized transactions against your online account with up to $100,000 in coverage per loss of SafeWeb® Remote Banking Insurance (provided by Travelers Property Casualty, a member of Citigroup). There are no additional fees to receive this benefit."
Section I.10.:
"PayPal provides you unlimited protection."
_________________________________________
Section IV.2.:
"If you are not able to resolve the dispute directly with the seller, and the seller is a Verified User, you may file a buyer protection claim under PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy"
I emailed paypal and they have not responded in regards to a Buyer Protection Policy.
This shows that even paypal does a little bit of fraudulent business. I am definitely including this information in my report to my credit card company.
_________________________________________
Paypal's own terms of use are what will make your chargeback legitimate. It is in the Terms of Use that paypal promises to protect us.
Call up your credit card company now. Tell them that you want a refund from paypal not only because you didn't get a product, but also because paypal has not given you the protection from fraud that they have promised you.
The longer you wait the less legitimate your claim, and the more of us that request chargebacks, the more likely we'll get them.
I just called my friend at the bank to get the correct info.
For non receipt of merchandise, you have 60 days from the time the merchant should have delivered the merchandise to send a letter to the bank. However, you need to provide the bank with all of the dates that were provided to you. For example; AD delivery date was 9/15. Never received, so I contacted them on 9/16, and was told I would receive computer on 10/15. Then 10/15 came and went and I called the company again. I was told that I would receive it by 12/15. Still havent received item, and merchant told me that he cannot fulfill his obligation. As long as there is follow up to each delivery date, your bank could initiate a chargeback. Any documentation that you have, you should also send to your bank.
I dont know why they denied your chargeback. Did you give them just the original delivery date with nothing else? Or is it possible that your bank is also ADs bank and they have already taken a hit with losses. I would get back on the phone with them and find out what is going on. Dont let them bully you around. You are entitled to a refund if you followed up with AD and 60 days have not passed since then.
This is just a scenario that would be from a cardholder giving a merchant his credit card number. I dont know if the procedures are the same if you paid thru PP or Billpoint, but I would assume they follow the same guidelines. I keep meaning to check on that, but I haven't yet.
posted on January 19, 2001 12:57:22 PM
Don't hold your breath and expect PayPal or the CC companies to refund your money. Remember that when you used a CC to pay through PayPal, PayPal is the merchant, and you are paying them to provide their procuct (money) and service (sending the money to Alien Distribution). In the eyes of the CC companies, I suspect, PayPal has "delivered" what you paid them by CC to deliver as soon as AD received the money.
As to the PayPal guarantee, they don't promise they will refund the money to a buyer in the case of a fraud claim. All they promise to do is to contact AD and "attempt" to recover the money. Nothing about giving anything to the victim, at all....
""If you have filed a Fraud Report no later than 30 days after the purchase transaction, you may file a Claim with PayPal. In order to file a Claim, you must be a Verified User at the time of filing. PayPal will investigate your claim, contact the seller and, if the seller does not present appropriate proof of shipment, a full refund or other evidence of a satisfactory resolution, PayPal will restrict the seller's account and seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller."
The oprerative sentence is "PayPal will restrict the seller's account and seek to collect the amount you paid from the seller."
That means, effectively, that they will do nothing.
PayPal's various "guarantees" are worthless, in my view- they won't pay on these claims, and I've never heard of anyone (I've asked repeatedly in discussion threads) who has received any refund from PayPal for any of their "guarantees."
Similarly, the CC companies are not in any hurry to transfer the title of "victim" from hundreds of users to themselves. They will likely see their obligation as completed as soon as PayPal electronically transferred the $$ to AD.
And the chances of getting anything back from the bankruptcy court as slim to none.
posted on January 19, 2001 01:21:58 PM
Well Steve, my credit card company was more than anxious to do a chargeback against paypal. The money has been "conditionally" placed back on my card so it's not a done deal yet. Paypal's responses to this matter have shown me that they are not the type of company anyone should be doing business with. I don't think my credit card company likes them very much either. As far as bankruptcy, people have been looking into this and not only is there no record of them filing bankruptcy, there seems to be no record of a company called Alien Distribution in either Michigan or Washington.
Look for PayPal (the merchant) to challenge the chargeback, claiming that they did fulfill their end of the deal (transferring money to AD at your request). If that happens (and it surely will), your conditional credit will likely vanish.
posted on January 19, 2001 02:02:01 PM
Some fine print from PayPal TOS on the issue of chargebacks. Apparently, if you initiate a chargeback without first attempting to resolve the matter using PayPal's "dispute resolution process," they may freeze your account:
*******
PayPal is the merchant of record with respect to all credit card transactions through the PayPal service to purchase goods or service. As such, we afford customers the rights and privileges expected of a credit card transaction. You acknowledge that PayPal does not control the outcome of any chargeback decision initiated through a customer's credit card issuing bank.
PayPal encourages all buyer purchase disputes to be filed and resolved through the PayPal dispute resolution process, and reserves the right to terminate or restrict account privileges of buyers who file chargeback complaints without attempting to resolve the complaints through PayPal.
*****
posted on January 19, 2001 04:09:20 PM
Yes, that's true. Paypal is just transfering the money, and they did do that in my case.
But, they also promise a certain amount of protection. In my case, they have offered none. I think that will be enough to get my money back from them.
I remember once minova had a good explanation of how this works. Minova, if you read this I'd appreciate if you could repeat how this is done properly.
posted on January 19, 2001 04:35:47 PM
I am no expert. I simply have the limited experience of filing for two chargebacks for auction goods.
The first was paid by Amazon Payments, and the chargeback was for non-delivery. I could not get any info about the buyer from Amazon, to pursue fraud charges against her, Amazon couldn't get her to respond to emails either and so I contacted my cc company. I had to supply them with all the information regarding the auction purchase and my attempts to resolve the situation. I got the chargeback with very little difficulty, with it being conditional for awhile, and then permanent.
The second is still underway, with a chargeback for a payment through Billpoint for goods that were poorly packed and arrived damaged. For this I have supplied all the auction information, and my attempts to resolve it with the seller direct, Billpoint and SquareTrade. I was then asked by the CC company to email the seller once again, directly asking for a refund, and telling her I would return the damaged goods on receipt of postage costs to ship it to her, or would have it available for collection. (Will she fly from Florida to London to collect it? I don't think so!)
With this final piece, I am hoping to have the conditional credit given to my account, while the CC pursue the payment through Billpoint (and her?). I believe, but am not certain, that the chargeback is made against the agency company (in this case, Billpoint), who then has to tackle the seller.
After looking at all this stuff, I think I would be incredibly wary of using Paypal for large payments in future, and will seek to use Billpoint. I don't like the idea of them freezing *my account if I am screwed over by a seller and seek restitution. Talk about kicking the victim!
posted on January 19, 2001 10:06:20 PM
I have also filed for a chargeback on my credit card. Hopefully something will come of that.
Check out http://www.tmbsbbs.com/bbs. Another big discussion going on over there. We have been in touch with the media and local and federal officials on this already and have found names and phone numbers of people that were part of Alien.
posted on January 20, 2001 04:56:07 PM
Come on people keep posting here. We need to stay in contact.
We made it into the Everett Herald today. This is great news. It mentions the fact that the Washington Attorney General is launching its own investigation against Alien.
If you haven't already, please contact the attorney general at this email address: [email protected]
If you haven't yet read the article check it out at this address: http://www.heraldnet.com/Stories/01/1/20/13375129.cfm
It took me a good couple of hours to read all 12 pages of the other thread on this subject.
I gotta back up Pocono
You have to file your claims........before time runs out.
Claims take time to process and if by "magic" your computers and/or speakers do finally arrive you can at that point cancel the claim.......... easy enough
So file the claims folks.....
Sitting, waiting and hoping isn't likely to get you anything. You have to protect your own interests.
Again, file your claims.....if your merchandise comes then you can simply cancel the claim.
Add a little flavor to your love life with "Love Potions"
posted on January 22, 2001 08:23:53 PM
Please goto http://www.tmbsbbs.com/alien if you were ripped off by this company and enter your auction info and then join our discussion board. This board has been labeled as the center of contact as its owner (me) and 2 other guys are working directly with the FBI in Seattle and acting as liasons between the FBI and the group of people that got scammed by Alien Distribution.
As of noon today (1/22/01) the FBI has officially taken over the case.
--Ryan
