posted on February 13, 2001 09:57:24 PM new
Ebay has decided they can charge Auction Assistant users to upgrade the software to keep it current with eBay. John Slocum promised each person when they purchased the right to use Auction Assistant that the software would be upgraded so it would always work on eBay. This was not cheap software. Ebay knew what Mr. Slocum had promised these buyers. They have owned Auction Assistant over one year, & this software has been upgraded each time eBay made changes to the auction listing page. A group of these buyers have contacted some attorney's plus they have spoke on the radio with a nationwide radio personality that deals in consumer affairs. Both the radio personality & the consumer attorneys want each person that bought the right to use this software from Mr. Slocum or eBay to get in touch with them. Contact information for Tom Martino is http://troubleshooter.com Tom Martino has a nationwide consumer advocate radio show. Or you can call 1 866 966 9696. All buyers of this software please check in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Auction Assistant_Users/join I know nothing about software but what eBay is doing seems like a case of Fraud to me. Will someone on this board that knows computers & software please discuss this. Thanks.
posted on February 13, 2001 11:37:48 PM new
janesgems, Thanks for the phone number. I will call. I know several people that are angry about this issue. I urge anyone who is upset with Ebay's business practices to call consumer groups and take a pro-active role in stopping the abuses. And Janesgem, I hope you don't mind, but I want to let people know once again that The Federal Trade Commission is very interested in what Ebay is doing! VERY!
Thanks for the info!
~~Anais~~
[ edited by anais on Feb 13, 2001 11:38 PM ]
posted on February 14, 2001 12:22:04 AM new
I myself bought AAPro when John was struggling to keep up with eBay changes long before eBay bought him out. I paid over $200.00 for the program and it's mega sets.
I am now told that I will get one year of free listings and that I will then have to pay $15.99 a month to keep the program where it will work, as the beta version I am using now will no longer be suported by eBay changes.
I feel betrayed by eBay and Blackthornsw. There is no way I can afford to pay $191.88 a year for a program I have already paid over $200.00 for initially.
posted on February 14, 2001 12:36:42 AM newOn 2/6/01 eBay announced the new program below. Each user has been sent an email on cost of $5.00 and $15.99 respectively
*** Upcoming eBay Seller’s Assistant Launch ***
In a few weeks, we will be introducing eBay Seller’s Assistant.
Seller’s Assistant Basic helps sellers create professional listings in
bulk, track them at eBay and manage customer correspondence. Seller’s
Assistant Pro is eBay's complete sales management application. It
helps higher volume sellers and small businesses automate processes
throughout the sales cycle - from bulk listing through completing the
transaction.
With Seller’s Assistant Basic, you can easily:
- Create attractive bulk listings
- Track and store sales information
- Generate invoices and other customer correspondence
- Automatically fill in user feedback
Seller’s Assistant Pro does all of the above and also allows you to:
- Schedule when your listings will be submitted
- Print shipping labels
- Generate sales reports
Seller’s Assistant products will be available for a low monthly
subscription fee. eBay’s Customer Support team will offer
around-the-clock email support - 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
eBay Seller’s Assistant Basic and Seller's Assistant Pro were formerly
known as Blackthorne Auction Assistant Classic and Blackthorne Auction
Assistant Pro. If you are currently using one of these Blackthorne
Auction Assistant products, please learn about upgrading to our newest
versions at http://www.blackthornesw.com/bthome/
posted on February 14, 2001 04:17:16 AM new
Yikes... and I thought it was bad when eBud went to a yearly subscription fee.
This new trend really stinks... it wouldn't be so bad if you knew from the time you bought the program that you'd have to pay on a regular basis, but to take a one-time purchase program and make it subscription is so unfair!
edited to add...
I just checked the eBud page and I think they've changed their pricing tiers... monthly $14.95, 3 mos. 39.95, 6 mos. 74.95, 1 year 144.95 (currently discounted to 119.95).
No thanks. I'll go back to my old cut-and-paste methods before I'd be gouged like that.
[ edited by joanne on Feb 14, 2001 04:23 AM ]
posted on February 14, 2001 06:10:59 AM new
Bad news folks....
Ebay will be charging ALL SOFTWARE developers for access to their new API interface.
A REgistration fee
A Monthly fee
So get your mind right.... ALL auction programs will soon be charging fees. Knowing ebay, probably HEFTY fees!
posted on February 14, 2001 06:32:21 AM new
I have already emailed the troubleshooter but didn't give a name and address so will go back and do that. I NEVER thought I would say the following.....
I am glad attorneys may be involved.
I can't believe I said it but I am, I think we have a class action lawsuit and both ebay and Blackthorne deserve it.
As previously said, both have the American right to make money for their product...but they don't have the right to bait and switch it's existing customer base. They know that the bulk of the serious sellers who would actually use AA have already bought it and the only way to get their salivating mouths back on our wallets was to find a way to rewrite history.
posted on February 14, 2001 06:53:23 AM new
I use MS Access for all my ebay accounting
invoicing, tracking who paid and didn't pay
printing invoices, labels for US, Int.,
insured, tracking, signature required when
delivered and I don't waste time using
these sold called user friendly packages
I control the software and with these packages beside costing $$$$ they control your operation.
How disguisting it must be to use something that has a time limited value and then frustration in waiting for the next update.
also I won;t use ANDALE for selling or buying
when you buy something they will accept credit cards in a non-secure email fashion so my credit card info in on a lot of servers
posted on February 14, 2001 08:10:01 AM newEbay's own words on the announcments board. won't this change make all programs except eBay's useless unless the developers pay eBay for the code
*** UPCOMING CHANGE IN HTML CODING ***
Beginning the week of 2/26/01, we will begin rolling out a new coding
methodology one some of our Web pages. This change will not affect the
appearance of the pages nor will it affect site stability.
The reason that we are announcing this change is that we want to make
outside developers aware of it. In some cases, products that extract
data directly from or submit data directly to the eBay site may be
affected by this change. Although we do not anticipate the effect on
any software or Web site to be significant, we want to make sure that
developers have adequate time to prepare.
Developers: to obtain more information on this upcoming change please
visit: http://pages.ebay.com/preview/sitechanges.html
posted on February 14, 2001 08:42:07 AM new
I read it...doesn't say anything about charging developers for the code. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't.
posted on February 14, 2001 08:42:44 AM new
eBay has been requiring certification and charging for access to the eBay API for a while now:
http://developer.ebay.com/
They don't disclose pricing, but I've heard that it's extraordinarily expensive, and the cost is prohibitive for nearly all of the software developers. The certification program is also rigorous-- I believe that eBay-owned Blackthorne is the only certified "third party" developer who currently has access to the API. (Someone will correct me if I'm wrong).
The others- and there are dozens of them, manage to do OK currently without access to the eBay API. Whether eBay will figure out a way to change that remains to be seen.
Like a poster above- I certainly don't resent that these software companies develop business models designed to make a profit. That's why they are in business, after all. All of the "free" web-based services are moving toward fee-for-service models as well. And if monthly, or yearly, or even weekly subscriptions work for the auction software developers, that's great! As long as the consumer has choices, the marketplace will work these things out.
The problem with what Blackthorne/eBay did is this. They sold a product to consumers with certain promises, and then didn't make good on those promises. They sold pretty pricey (about $200 with bells and whistles) software to users as recently as a few weeks ago, with promises of:
"We offer all of our products as "try before you buy" applications, and once purchased, we offer free intermediate and minor level upgrades.."
and they have demonstrated a practice of honoring that commitment over the last 3 years- always keeping up with eBay's changes. Now, they rename the product:
"eBay Seller’s Assistant Basic and Seller's Assistant Pro were formerly
known as Blackthorne Auction Assistant Classic and Blackthorne Auction
Assistant Pro..."
and discontinue support to existing users/owners- instead requiring them to pay monthly for what they already purchased. They will no doubt wish that they hadn't admitted that Seller's Assistant was just the old Auction Assistant, renamed- for that admission refutes their likely claim that the old product has been discontinued, and that this is a new product.
Thousands of people have purchased these products with certain assurances. (And "purchase" is the word eBay/Blackthorne uses on their site, licensing agreement language notwithstanding). They are no longer getting what they paid for.
That's just wrong. I'll support any legal efforts to make this right.
posted on February 14, 2001 08:58:52 AM new
Hi magazine guy,
Oh brother. Check out the eBud thread...they are changing the name and forcing you to buy a subscription to a combination of their two services. Want them both...or not. Changing prices too, natch.
posted on February 14, 2001 09:13:02 AM new
Just another drop in the bucket. A bucket that is overflowing with the blood of eBay sellers.
eBay's Developer API is not designed to help third-party software developers. It is designed to prevent software developers from accessing eBay. eBay now offers their own software and listing tools (Blackthorne). They're locking everyone else out who doesn't pay eBay's racketeering fees.
eBay's restrictive policy goes against the grain and the very nature of the Internet (open source, open platform). Consider Sun Microsystems. They give their StarOffice office suite away free. Sun are the developers of the Java programming language. They give their Java Development Kit away free, and are in the process of releasing Forte (the Java IDE) for free. Sun is an example of a good netizen. eBay is an example of a bad netizen.
It may make perfect sense for eBay to charge/restrict access to eBay's API. No doubt child sacrifice to Moloch was also justified in its time. After all, without infanticide, there would be no guarantee the crops would grow.
Discussion of a co-operative alternative to eBay has been moved (at the request of AW) to the Other Online Auctions forum. See ToyRanch's thread
posted on February 14, 2001 09:57:38 AM new
I wonder how many copies of AA have been sold to folks who came in after the conclusion of the "free upgrades forever" promise? If I recall correctly, eBay did not extend that promise when they purchased Blackthorne.
eBay is not "going after" the original purchasers so much as it is planning on generating a cash flow from the user base that the promise was never made to.
In addition, the free upgrades promise is something that eBay can very easily step away from. It can cite changes that make it impossible for it to continue to provide free upgrades.
I doubt if this went to court that a judge or a jury would rule in favor of the plaintiffs at the expense of a company that can very reasonably say that "we tried in good faith to continue the free upgrades and did so for more than a year but we simply can't continue to lose money by doing so."
Legally, I doubt that eBay can be made to continue free upgrades. However, it might be possible to coerce eBay to stand by the promise. That means taking the whole issue to the court of public opinion and especially to the potential newcomers to eBay. You will only get results if you can give eBay a very public black eye that they perceive will cost them more money than to continue free upgrades to those who were promised the free upgrades.
posted on February 14, 2001 10:08:54 AM new
Or...why not refund the purchase price of AA to it's buyers, since it is eBay itself, the owner of the product, who has rendered it useless? It is now a product that must be rented and not owned.
posted on February 14, 2001 10:42:25 AM new
Here is the publically available information about the fees that eBay is charging software developers for access to the API. This was taken from the Business FAQ on the "eBay Developers Program" site here: http://developer.ebay.com/getstart/register/faq_bus.html
What fees are associated with the Non-Public and Public Licenses?
Unfortunately, we are unable to give you speific information about the API pricing structure at this time. This information is considered confidential and is discussed only with licensed developers. We can tell you that there is a one-time enrollment fee, a monthly maintenance fee, and a usage fee based on the number of API
transactions and the time of day. If your application is approved, a Business Development manager will contact you to discuss your stated plans and program pricing.
posted on February 14, 2001 03:31:09 PM new
I do not believe that eBay attorney's or John Slocum attorney's could have protected
eBay from honoring John's promises to us. I think the only reason John sold to eBay was
eBay might have threatened to charge John fees like they are now charging other software developers or threatened to lock all Auction Assistant users out of eBay. There was rumors at the time of the sale that John was being forced to sell to eBay.
I think that legally the only way eBay could get out of honoring this is if eBay went broke & out of business, which with record profits is not happening. You can bet that if eBay could they would not have let us go over a year & gave us free updates. They are too greedy to do something for free. They are counting on everyone paying to list on eBay.
posted on February 14, 2001 03:54:55 PM new
Eboda,
I was thinking about switching to Access but how do you get the auction id, title and bidders email linked into Access w/o cutting and pasting? Is there a way to do this or is manual the only easy way?
posted on February 14, 2001 05:47:20 PM new
Think of it like this, somebody designed a great new car. It was better than anything on the market at the time and they sold it to you with a written statement that anytime they added a new feature, you got to bring it to the shop and get it installed FREE. Now because of this promise the car costs more than any other one and more than you can afford and you have to pay it ALL in full at the time of purchase, but geez, lifetime upgrading of your car?....you spend the big bucks all in one lump sum.
One year later, they change the name of your car and tell you if you want to keep driving the car you ALREADY paid for you have to make monthly payments.
WHAT? I paid for it in FULL, you promised free upgrades, that it would always be drivable and I wouldn't have to pay for maintenance. How can you do that to me? Apparently you thought my "lifetime" expectancy was only 12 months.
posted on February 14, 2001 06:07:32 PM new
to marlendez
you have to get information into excel 2000
office 97 or 98 doesn't cut it,
print it out in tab delimeted format
and have access pick up the file in tab delimeted format
make sure access 2000 can pick up tab delimeted stuff from excel 2000
email link is what you see on the ebay listing page--so you have to cut and paste the full email address
some cutting and pasting and typing
sold products follow a control number 1000
for all bidders who won auctions
then changed to a control sequence number
for invoincing/billing I am about 750 now.
ones that are late so I filter for over 999
and the 1000 show up and I send reminder invoices.
i type in name and address, zip, shipping price and the rest is done
invoicing
emailing
labeling
domestic usps, international 2 dif forms
insured, signature guarantee,ups
type in email address, name, add, zip, 1000,
and thats all the rest access 2000 does it.
I have ebay number, listing item as shown on top of ebay item page, sold price and seller id--this is what you see when you do a search
again i control the software and the software doesn't control me.
posted on February 14, 2001 09:03:57 PM new
We were also told that the program would eventually work with other auction sites. Ebay will never allow that to happen.
posted on February 14, 2001 09:36:59 PM new
Come on, you guys are being naive. Nobody forced anybody to sell anything. And it is a fact that every little change eBay makes, such as adding a category or moving a page, requires third-party software vendors to update (not upgrade) their software. I've seen the problems the auto-snipe software vendors go through. They need to upgrade their programs often (like every few weeks) and it is a pain. How would you feel with several thousand customers sending angry emails every few weeks because their software is broken? How would you feel if every two weeks you had to analyze each little change and get a patch out in a hurry? Maybe you'd feel like selling the store and just taking a few million bucks from eBay and turning the whole mess over to them.
Now that eBay owns the software, they're under no obligation to honor previous agreements. Think eBay doesn't have lawyers of their own?
The anonoymity and un-connectedness of the Internet has led to a whole new breed of entrepreneur and apparently a whole new type of sales strategy. I think I'll call it the "always free" syndrome or some other medical-sounding thingie.
posted on February 14, 2001 10:33:37 PM new
I think John (Blackthorne) sold to ebay for the same reason most of us would have...
They made him an offer he couldn't resist.
he posted recently that he was
"now a salaried employee..."
That speaks volumes to me!!
I have seen the new program. You will not find the words "Blackthorne Software" any where in it. It is completely "Ebay Marketplace" branded. Even a snazzy new logo. This tells me that Blackthorne no longer controls what is now Seller Assistant. Ebay saw the power of a listing program early, and snapped up the most advanced. Now that it has been whipped into shape save some bugs, ebay has decided to graciously take it over completely. Like any proud parent, he is still deeply involved in the program, thank goodness!
Sheer conjecture on my part, but I do not think John had much to do with this decision. In all of my dealings with him, he has been most honorable. If it were still his company to control, I surmise there would have been some sort of a grandfather clause or deep discount for the current owners.
I hope he negotiated a big bonus for taking the heat!
posted on February 15, 2001 04:02:15 AM new
I,too, always found John Slocum and Mary, the Blackthorne support deva par excellence, to be extremely helpful. Always timely, going out of their way to provide me fast and complete assistance. Very patient, very personable, very concerned that my AA worked right and that I worked right with it. When I first bought AA, I was a complete computer dunce. Not only did they help me with AA, they taught me over the period of several months to use my computer. Way beyond the call of duty...I was so stunned when this rental thing occurred. It was more than upset in a business sense. It was a bitter personal disappointment. I was angered, felt betrayed and lied to. No warning, no announcements of the impending changes. It came out of the blue and was a complete shock. In fact, when ebay purchased Blackthorne, John posted on the Blackthorne homepage not to worry, he would still maintain control; nothing was going to change. I believed and trusted him. Yes, he made a business deal, a financial decision. He sold his company and probably signed some confidentiality agreements or discretionary clauses in the porcess. . Now he is a salaried employee with a substantial profit, to boot. That is great for him and his family. A real financial opportunity. John is an engineer, not an entrepenuer. I think he may have been glad to turn it all over, in many respects. When his company went to ebay control, ethics and honor ceased to be for Blackthorne. I don't know if John foresaw that. I suspect it troubles him. But a deal is a deal. . The attorneys are retained, the papers are signed, the money has changed hands. And I am depressed and disheartened by it all.
posted on February 15, 2001 11:00:07 AM new
This sort of subscription software plan is going to be SOP for many companies in the near future including Microsoft.
Here's why. Years ago, most people thought little about upgrading their software. It was a very necessary evil. Now, you can software patches for everything over the web and upgrades become harder and harder to justify.
Without the upgrade's cash cow, subscriptions are about the only way these companies can maintain a revenue stream. For a software package that neeeds regular updating just to stay functional, that's not a bad idea, but for most everything else that's going to be hard pill to swallow unless new features are added.
I use a homemade MS Access database to track my auctions so I don't have to buy a subscription, but one day soon Access or its kind will be a subscription-based product if I ever upgrade it.
