posted on March 14, 2001 06:33:02 PM
In January I had sold a book thru half.com and
shipped it using a Postal Delivery confirmation.
A few weeks ago I was surprised to get an email from half.com asking for my info on this package as the buyer claims it was not received.I sent the tracking number to them and looked at the USPS website that ODDLY showed this media mail package was delivered 2 days after it was sent!
The buyer left me scathing feedback making me look like the worlds biggest rip off artist.Mind you,I had 10 perfect 5/5 feedbacks.
I was quite pissed off after I saw that and called the buyer.I paid on my unreimbursed funds for a delivery confirmation and have my receipts and she'll get reimbursed from half.com...She was adamant that she didn't receive it and did not apologize for her very negative feedback comments and half.com did not answer my 3 emails to have it removed.I have 2 receipts showing I shipped this what is their problem ? I have purchased over 200 books from half.com and have never reported a problem!
Today I inquired to a seller for an auction item I had not received.I requested it be sent insured and they also had a tracking number which the USPS website showed was received on 3/9/01....Received ? By whom ?? It was not me!
Someone is here 24 hours a day..This is a highrise and I do remember last Friday asking the substitute mail person if there was anything for us to sign or packages.She said NO.
So,my question is,what is the point of a "Delivery Confirmation:" if the Postal employees can sign out YOUR material and not obtain any valid or signatures of recipients.
It becomes your word against their barcode scanner!
I'm getting VERY concerned with this-especially when I read on these groups of all of the ebay ID's that the Postal service is selling under.
posted on March 14, 2001 06:54:45 PM
Hey eydo! Most of the time, I too think D.C. is a waste, however, for only .40 cents, it's not that bad. Saved my butt this week. Shipped an item on Feb. 28 (with D.C. AND insurance) - as of March 12, buyer still had not received it. That evening, I checked the USPS web site - D.C. showed that it had been received on March 2. Delivery Confirmation shows delivery to the Post Office that it goes to...that's all - it's not for/doesn't show when the packaged is delivered to the buyer - only shows delivered to the Post Office. So, anyway, buyer goes into the P.O. will all of his "ammunition" in hand - copy of this, scanned copy of D.C. and the insurance receipt, etc. - and who "greets" him (almost) at the P.O. Door, but the "General Delivery" Postal Deliverer - "Hey - I've got a package for you!"...well, that's the end of that story - all ended well. But that's how D.C. works - shows delivery only to the Post Office of the town the package is going to - if you want more than that, buyer (or you) will have to pay for Signature Confirmation - $1.75 (I think) or I've been told, a person has to sign for a package insured for $100.00 or more - that is $2.00. Hope this helps!
[ edited by capefeartrading on Mar 14, 2001 06:55 PM ]
sorry-edited for mis-spellings - it's late!
[ edited by capefeartrading on Mar 14, 2001 06:57 PM ]
posted on March 14, 2001 07:43:00 PM
This is why I no longer waste my money on D.C. The person can still claim they did not receive it, the receiving post office can scan it as "delivered" when it has not yet been delivered, etc.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:02:55 AM
Delivery Confirmation is just that: confirmation that it was delivered. If you wanted to make sure it got into the right hands, then you need to send it certified, registered, or restrict the delivery to a certain person.
Don't blame the post office for your lack of understanding what a DC is and what it is not; make sure that you understand what you are paying for, and if it is the best way to get a package to the destination.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:16:50 AM
I agree Delivery Confirmation is a waste of money. If the item is worth very much send it insured. If it is a very cheap item send it with nothing at all.
If you want to throw away .40 cents for each package you send give it to a good charity not the Post Office.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:21:53 AM
If you are referring to the confirmation tracking service (used to be 35 cents before the rate hike) on priority mail, than this is NOT adequate proof that the customer received the item. Most shippers mistakenly assume that if the USPS website shows item as being delivered, the customer has it. This is not true. The confirmation only shows the date that the package was put on the carrier's route. Whether the carrier ever deliver the package to the right address is not proveable one way or another. Nor can one tell for sure what date the package was delivered to the customer. That is why delivery confirmation is not acceptable proof for private insurance claims.
Your customer at half.com may have never gotten the book. The carrier could have left the book outside and someone else took it.
[ edited by laum1 on Mar 15, 2001 01:23 AM ]
posted on March 15, 2001 07:20:35 AM
I disagree - DC is quite useful! However, this is exactly why buyers must purchase insurance.
They paid. I then pack carefully and then ship item, obtaining DC number at my expense (delivery confirmation # shows I put package into post office stream of consciousness!) That is the end of my responsibility.
IF the buyer does not receive package - THEY needed to purchase the insurance coverage which I offer to each buyer.
IF the buyer does not receive package - THEY chose to not buy insurance - THEY take hit for Post Office mismanagement.
Proof that I sent package and it was scanned into the post office computer is PROOF enough that I carried through on my responsibility. End of story.
I will cheerfully assist any buyer with processing of their insurance claim - however, I should not receive a negative or take hit for postal agency's mishandling. Buyers on the internet need to acknowledge that fact in this new economy. Buy insurance to protect your purchase - or else pick up the item in person!
posted on March 15, 2001 08:41:29 AM
antiquealley, I couldn't agree more. I buy DC on every package I ship. It has put a stop to non-delivery complaints.
You also have to realize that the service is still relatively new to the postal service and still don't work the same way every where.
In my area the carrier now carries a hand scanner and scans the items as he delivers them. I am sure there are lots of places that do not have the scanners for the carriers yet.
Maybe that is what the last increase was for?
posted on March 15, 2001 08:48:53 AMI then pack carefully and then ship item, obtaining DC number at my expense (delivery confirmation # shows I put package into post office stream of consciousness!) That is the end of my responsibility.
Dead wrong.
Seller's responsibility ends when the stuff is delivered, not before. If seller hires the USPS, or some kid on the block to help in this process, that's seller's decision, and is not at all binding upon buyer, who has every right to expect delivery.
posted on March 15, 2001 08:53:50 AM
ah, but remember I ALWAYS give my buyer the choice of what venue to use in shipping. It is the BUYER who selects what agency that ships; not me - clearly putting responsibility back on buyer who selects type of mail and pays appropriately. IF they choose to not pay for insurance, and the package gets lost, it is their problem.
posted on March 15, 2001 09:14:14 AM
I have had 3 packages this month delivered to the wrong zip when you check the tracking. What help is that? Last one was sent to Vale OR and shows as delivered to San Diego.
posted on March 15, 2001 12:06:27 PMbut remember I ALWAYS give my buyer the choice of what venue to use in shipping. It is the BUYER who selects what agency that ships; not me - clearly putting responsibility back on buyer who selects type of mail and pays appropriately.
The only way to get the responsibility onto buyer is to insist that the shipping contract exist between buyer and shipper. That means that buyer must contact the shipper and make the arrangement.
Giving buyer a choice of which shipper that seller will use does not achive this.
"buyer to pick this thing up in Topeka, I DON'T SHIP".
posted on March 15, 2001 12:37:27 PM
I believe that if you use DC in conjunction with a verified barcoded address and great packing, you won't have any problem.
I use DC sparingly, but to date have never had a lost package.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:05:30 PM
Seller's responsibility ends when package is delivered, no matter that you try to shift responsibility onto buyer.
Value of DC - proof that the package was actually mailed and where it ended up at the P.O. Even without insurance, the PO is still responsible for packages that it takes. Insurance just makes proof easier.
For me, DC just makes it easy to give my buyers a way of keeping track of the package, and gives them some assurance that I actually put the package in the mail! Cheap peace of mind at 40 cents.
If you want actual proof of delivery, use the $1.75 service that requires a signature.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:21:13 PM
The main value of DC is as a deterrent to buyers who might falsely claim that the item was never received. Of course if they REALLY don't receive the package it proves nothing, does not protect the seller and does not aid the Post Office in finding the missing item. If an item is late in arriving, say over a week for Priority Mail, it might be sueful to prove to a buyer that you shipped it when you say you shipped it.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:48:49 PM
I had a potential charge back from a guy from paypal. I followed paypals guidelines and sent D.C. tracking number when asked. This showed paypal the item WAS shipped!. Nuf said. They had to go find it for themselves. I was under the impression from the beginning the guy was probally pulling a scam. He Claimed he never recieved the item 3 days after D.C. says it was delivered. Then when he lost out on the charge back from paypal he left neg feedback stating he had to go thru paypal to get the item. What a Booger.
Anyway thru paypal D.C. was the saving grace for me. I use it on most of my deliverys 'cause ya just never know.
posted on March 15, 2001 01:57:52 PM"That is why delivery confirmation is not acceptable proof for private insurance claims." - laum1
A while back someone (I can't recall who) posted to one of these threads and said that their insurance claim with the post office was denied because, although the buyer did not receive the package, DC showed that it was delivered. Since a package is sometimes scanned at the PO before the carrier leaves on his route, or scanned and then left outside on someone's doorstep -- in other words, scanned before the buyer actually receives it -- doesn't seem to me like this should be firm enough grounds for a PO insurance claim for a "lost package" to be rejected. But the poster said that was the PO's ruling.
Perhaps a caution against using DC in conjunction with PO insurance.
posted on March 15, 2001 02:14:44 PM
I must agree with antiquealley, after I ship it, that is it for me. I give them a choice of putting insurance on it or not putting it on it.
I will not be held responsible for the PO's mistakes. It is up to them to deliver it where it is addressed to. That is their job, it is what they get paid for.
I make it known in my TOS that I do not do refunds on lost or damaged packages. So if a buyer opts not to use it, that is their decision. They made it, they have to live with it. I put DC on it so they will know I sent it. The rest is up to the PO. I certainly can't walk across the USA to hand deliver it! So my responsibilty has to end somewhere.
Maybe the PO just needs to take "their responsibility" a little more seriously.
posted on March 15, 2001 02:38:10 PM
DC may be worthless, but it has SAVED MY CONSIDERABLE BUTT 4 times!
I love it when I get the email (4 times out of around 800 shipments via USPS): "My package didn't arrive yet! Are youse gonna refund my bucks?"
Then I REPLY: "Oh my GOODNESS! The PO web-site says it was delivered at 10:00 on 12/28! If it doesn't show up in a day or 2, let me know so I can contact the POSTAL INSPECTORS -- they have been very helpful in the past for me in cases of stolen packages!"
Well!..."Wonders of Wonders; Miracles! Miracles!" (apologies to "Fiddler...) I ALWAYS get a reply from the buyer: "It's here! My dog buried it in the backyard! /OR/ My Granny threw it in the cellar!"
Soooooo! FWIT: ALL my packages fly with DC!
edited to remove that inappropriate smile!
[ edited by tomwiii on Mar 15, 2001 02:39 PM ]
posted on March 15, 2001 03:08:13 PM
If you have proof that the item was sent and that the buyer refused insurance when offered, you're covered. I know this from experience because I was sued over a $350 shipment that "never arrived".
The judge heard about 5 minutes of arguments from each side, looked at my documentation, and promptly dismissed the case, after explaining the value of insurance to the buyer.
I keep seeing the same people arguing otherwise on this board (over and over) but my experiences (several incidents over 3 1/2 years of on-line sales) have proven them to be in error.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 15, 2001 03:13 PM ]
posted on March 16, 2001 03:17:29 PMI keep seeing the same people arguing otherwise on this board (over and over) but my experiences (several incidents over 3 1/2 years of on-line sales) have proven them to be in error.
URL please?
Or is this a classic vacuous reference?
The point is, it's contrary to the law, and all cited legal references so far. I'm not usually a "show the reference" kind of poster, but extraordinary claims of fact require extraordinary references.
posted on March 16, 2001 08:24:20 PM
What kind of references are you referring to? My previous post was based on my personal experience. No URL is available or neccessary.
Does anyone here personally know of ANY seller who has lost a case when he had proof of shipping and the offer of insurance? I didn't think so.
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 16, 2001 08:28 PM ]
posted on March 16, 2001 10:56:32 PM
I see you all talking about insurance. Have you ever tried to collect on insurance from the post office? LOL!!! Unless the item is new with a receipt of purchase it takes and act of GOD and the same chances of winning the lottery to collect. I have been there twice and got zilch! Nothing! Just 30 days of grief and every single post office employee has different knowledge on procedures. I vote for non government competition with some since of loyalty. I am also sick of having my packages literally thrown into the bins as I watch and I even have Fragile in red all over the box! You wouldn't believe how many times I have gone directly to the Postmaster after that disrespect. Bottom line, I agree, Confirmations are half useless. Why can't the post office use the same idea as UPS. Sign on the pad at your door? If not there, leave a note that an attempt will be made tomorrow, etc...now UPS has it down and works!
posted on March 17, 2001 12:05:30 AM
In this new era of the e-related package shipping boom for the USPS, they definitely need to re-evaluate how package delivery is handled! Their policy of simply leaving packages on front porches, etc. when no one is home is unacceptable.
I arrived home one day last week to find a box sitting on my walk at the bottom of the steps leading up to my front door...in a driving rain. Mind you, my doorstep has a slight protective overhang that may have provided some shelter had the box been placed under it, but I guess the postal carrier just didn't feel like carrying it all the way up my 5 big steps. So there it was...my anxiously anticipated box of vintage Sports Illustrated magazines sitting in the pouring rain. Hey, but at least the delivery confirmation sticker had been scanned! (while it was still dry and legible I guess)
[ Side note: I highly recommend to all sellers to place paper items, or other items that could be easily water damaged, inside of a plastic bag before placing them in a shipping box. Lots of packages get left in places where they are exposed to the elements. I know, I know......you'll have to raise your "handling fee" another .05 cents! ]
I understand the extra time and hassle the USPS would incur if every package had to be signed for by a live recipient (nobody's ever home in our society anymore), but there are other options! If a package will not fit in a customer's concealed mail receptacle, the carrier should leave one of those note cards that says..."Your package can be picked up at the post office after ___ pm today." End of story!
As for Delivery Confirmation, in my town each mail carrier has a handheld scanner strapped to their belt, and the package is scanned at the point that it actually leaves their hands at the recipient's address...whether it is given to a live person or left on a porch. (or left with a dead person on the front porch.)
I sent a DC package that showed on the website as being delivered but was disputed by the recipient as to having never been received. In my case I called the post office of the zip code where I had sent the package. I was a little suspicious of the recipient's story from some other involved factors. I asked the postmaster if he knew the guy, and if he seemed to be a person who would make a false claim like this. I also investigated with the postmaster who the carrier was the day it was scanned as delivered. The postmaster said he would check with the carrier and promised to call me back.
The next day when he called he said that the carrier that day was a route substitute. It had now been over a week since the disputed date of the delivery. The substitute carrier said something like, "That guy lives up off the road a little ways, and I'm almost sure I remember leaving that on his front porch." When I pushed the postmaster for some clarification about who is responsible in such a dispute, his quote to me was:
"When it comes right down to it, it is just the customers word against the mail carrier's. Delivery Confirmation doesn't really prove that the intended person got it, but the post office is not liable or responsible in these cases."
So much for Delivery "Confirmation" !! The only thing I see that it does is it provides some peace of mind for a seller to be able to have documentation he sent the package, and maybe it deters some recipients who don't know that DC is basically legally worthless from trying to make a false claim about non-receipt of the package. I still put it on all my packages, but when it comes right down to it, it won't really settle any disputes.
posted on March 17, 2001 04:09:26 AM
Delivery confirmation is indeed useless as a means to prove successful delivery of the item. But it IS proof that the item was sent. And if the buyer declines the offer of insurance he has no gripe against the seller OR the postal service. I've been down that road with buyer's before and I have NEVER lost. And I don't know of any other sellers who have EVER lost (when they had adequate documentation).
posted on March 18, 2001 04:25:46 AM
This was a great discussion. I've got 2 auctions right now that ended up quite high and the buyers have refused insurance. I'm debating whether I should just put a DC on them to prove that I did ship them or should I go ahead and pay for the insurance myself just to be safe. They are high enough that I can't afford to refund if they get damaged or lost. I offered insurance and these buyers declined.
If buying the insurance will give you peace of mind then by all means buy it. Otherwise, if you use DC you're covered as long as you keep the emails that offered the insurance option to the buyers.
posted on March 18, 2001 05:29:12 AM
bestofstuff -
"I am also sick of having my packages literally thrown into the bins as I watch and I even have Fragile in red all over the box! You wouldn't believe how many times I have gone directly to the Postmaster after that disrespect."
My PO has one clerk that can (and does) shot-put a package into a sorting bin from about 15 feet away. He seldom misses. My flat book packages get frisbee'd into the bins by all the clerks. And they let packages stack up at their station, then drop the whole stack into a bin at once.
The LAST human that will read that "FRAGILE" warning before your packages reach the recipient's post office is probably the clerk that throws the box into the bin. The handling between post offices is as close to 100% automated as the USPS can get it, and machines don't read. Writing FRAGILE all over the box is useless.
If you want your packages to be hand-carried through the postal system, you have to send them REGISTERED ... and that's horrendously expensive as well as slow.
If you are shipping fragile things, pack so that they can survive being in the bottom of a 5-foot deep bin when a package with a bowling ball lands on top of them. Pack so they can be dropped off the back of a truck, or fall off a conveyor, without damge to the contents.
posted on March 18, 2001 09:51:41 AMif you use DC you're covered as long as you keep the emails that offered the insurance option to the buyers.
You're covered indoors as long as you use a charcoal briquette barbeque, because there are no flames. Just keep all the windows shut, and the bbq can heat a good space. Keep in mind for when the power goes out.
