jessbax
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posted on March 20, 2001 11:13:00 AM
I posted this in a similar thread but thought maybe it would be better to sart a new thread for it........
I state in my TOS that I will ship to Canada but shipping is slightly more. We'll this person paid by PayPal (including the US shipping cost) before telling me they were from Canada. I let it go and figured I would pay the difference (about $.55). Then (after paying)they TELL me to mark the Customs form with a $5.00 value instead of the $8.99 value. Now, I'm not trying to be petty but I do include an invoice and my "little voice" is telling me not to lie on the Customs form.
After reading the other thread "HELP I don't want to lie", I politely email the buyer and told them that I can not lie on the form. This is the email I received back:
"I have made payment for this item, please follow the shipping instruction which I have sent to you. "TO AVODI CUSTOM CHARGE ME" "
What do you guys think? We're only talking $3.99 difference but what about the risk?
TIA!!! 
Lori
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sophie89
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posted on March 20, 2001 11:46:16 AM
To make you life easier, I would just remove the invoice, and mark it $5.00.
If you just don't care what he may do to your feedback and you do not want to bend on the subject, just mark it how you want. He will be mad, but mabey next time he'll read the auction description. (you do state that you will not lie for customs in your TOS right?)
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lewin2000
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posted on March 20, 2001 11:52:48 AM
Your bidder probably won't have to pay tax, even if the item is worth $10 US. However, as a joke you should mark the item as being worth $500. That ought to show him.
I wouldn't be suggesting this if he didn't make up his own shipping rates.
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jayadiaz
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posted on March 20, 2001 11:56:27 AM
I would not lie. First I believe it to be a Federal offense as it involves the USPS. Second the bidder lives in Canada and knows the rules better than you do. He should not purchase from US if he doesn't want the extra charge.
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bobokiki
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posted on March 20, 2001 11:58:10 AM
Lori:
You can tell the buyer that the limit is $13US ($20Can) for customs charges. Anything less will not be charged, so he's safe with $5 or $9 either way.
"We're only talking $3.99 difference but what about the risk?"
What risk? I challenge anyone to post their tale of customs Canada coming after them for misrepresenting the value of an item!
Here's another little story to further illustrate: I bought a digital camera off ebay a couple years ago from a US seller. The seller simply shipped it as "camera" valued at $600. It was a used camera, and having to pay $130CDN on customs charges was not something I wanted to do. I called the customs office, told them it was used and not valued at $600US, and they said "OK, just fill out the customs refund form and we'll refund the money".
I ended up paying $30 in fees instead of $130. With a simple form and letter of explanation (I didn't lie, BTW). Does this sound like an organization that will even bother with $20 mislabellings? Do you see them chasing down that at-home mom for that mislabelled $10 costume bracelet?
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misscandle
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posted on March 20, 2001 12:02:37 PM
Lori:
I can understand you taking the high road regarding the underpayment of the shipping costs. I've done that. But, to ask you on top of that to falsify a government document is beyond nervy. My personal advice is to stick to standard business practices when it comes to messing with the "gubment"--regardless of the amount in question. Are the potential penalties for a little fraud different from big fraud? I don't know. And, many people will disagree with my position & I have no problem with that. Ultimately, you have to do what you think is best.
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW is WHY our good neighbors to the North have such draconian tax laws. Why would they have to pay duty on a $8.99 item? Is there no exemption? How much duty is required? Yikes, Canadians! I sympathize with you (though not enough to get myself in trouble). What do you get in return for all these tax dollars? No offense intended....I just think the costs you have to deal with on small purchases are onerous.
Edited to add: Okay, so someone said there is a $20 exemption. Then why did the buyer even make this an issue? Well....whatever.
[ edited by misscandle on Mar 20, 2001 12:05 PM ]
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Zazzie
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posted on March 20, 2001 12:07:22 PM
It is not DUTY that is charged. It is a $5.00 brokerage fee that Canada Post collects for doing the paperwork and any amount over that $5.00 is federal and/or provincial taxes.
If you use a courier service the brokerage fee is $30.00.
It is EXTREMELY unlikely that a $8.99 item will be charged anything.
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lanefamily
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posted on March 20, 2001 12:40:46 PM
I want to add to this by asking something in general. What are we going to do with these people!?
I have seen these threads many times about Canada shipping. I have experienced this myself being a Canada friendly seller. I get people that state they will neg me or want out of the transaction unless I mark it as a gift. They want me to lie on the form about value and in some cases I get the old Canada money order to have it shipped to a border town to a hardware store or somewhere to be picked up.
I personally hold my own with the exception of the first wacko that would neg me if I did not mark it as a gift. I say tough and mark it at the correct value. Have never got a neg for it. If they do not pay I NPB and Neg them (I have done that).
What are we as sellers to do? Long TOS stating we will not lie as I have seen suggested before. I should not have to state that in my TOS. Let everyone out of the transaction that says it has to me marked as a gift or at a reduced cost only to face a negative feedback cause we would not complete the transaction on their terms? Wait in worry that the mounted police will show up at my door one day and their horse craps in my yard. (Woops, got carried away).
Should we as sellers be responsible to educate Canadian buyers? I think not.
If you do not understand all of this it is because it is 60 degrees out for the first time in 5 months and I am stuck in the office.
Jim
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dubyasdaman
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posted on March 20, 2001 12:55:49 PM
A large portion of may sales go to Canadian buyers (~25%). These just happen to be my favorite customers (overall). Very few deadbeats, friendly emails, and fast payments (even from Canada).
Every once in a while I get the "Will you mark down the cost on the customs form?" question. I just respond that I can't without an explanation. I've never received a neg because of it and several of my repeat bidders have asked me to lie on the customs form during the first transaction. My polite but firm nos haven't caused any problems so far.
I LOVE my Canadian customers. A big THANK YOU to all of them...
[ edited by dubyasdaman on Mar 20, 2001 12:56 PM ]
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misscandle
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posted on March 20, 2001 01:05:33 PM
I understand what you're saying, Jim. Today I'm stuck in the house with a gaggle of sick children. The combination of disinfectant fumes and cold medication has produced these musings:
For those who think we should put it in our TOS that we won't lie on customs forms, what about this: "I will not lie on customs forms, nor will I knock over the liquor store on the way to the post office. Requests for general drunk and disorderliness, however, will be considered on a case by case basis."
Maybe it would make more sense for the other sellers to have TOS that say: "Canadian buyers may bid with confidence. We will happily falsify customs forms, especially for those who don't nick us on the shipping."
Well.....needs a little work, but it will do as a first draft. Is it Spring yet?
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bobokiki
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posted on March 20, 2001 01:48:29 PM
Just to carlify my state of mind here, I never expect the sellers to falsify the form. I either ask up front and bid accordingly, or ask post-close and if they don't want to, I don't bring it up again. No neg threats and no hassles. There's a difference between asking for it nicely and demanding it "or else".
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cdnbooks
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posted on March 20, 2001 02:03:30 PM
misscandle
Personally, I'm for a little more drunk and disorderly.......
Bill
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dilligafftw
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posted on March 20, 2001 02:07:46 PM
As a Canadian who has bought plenty of items on ebay from the U.S. and Europe any item I have received valued at $10.00 U.S. or less has never had a brokerage fee, duties or taxes applied to it. It only applies to items over $20.00 Canadian. here is the info from Canada Customs websitefor items coming through the mail.
http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/customs/business/importing/courier/postal/ind_duty_free-e.html
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jessbax
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posted on March 20, 2001 02:41:49 PM
Thanks for all of the great ideas and info!!
Haven't decided for sure what to do with this buyer.
I'm just not sure how I feel about adding to my TOS that "I am an honest person and fill out Customs Forms honestly" not worded that way but you know what I mean. It just doesn't seem right to me that I have to state I'm an honest person so don't ask me to lie. I did add a line to WBN tho (which basically say's the same thing) so maybe that will help in the future.
I have had many Canadian buyers and they are great!! This week is the first time I've had anyone ask me to lie on the form (actually - he kind of demanded it).
lewin2000 - like your idea...it made me laugh!!!
As I'm writing this I just got a post from:
dilligafftw - thanks so much for that link -very helpful! I think that helped me decide what to do..........I'll write another polite email explaining one more time why I can not falsify the form and see what happens.
dubyasdaman - I am definitely taking your advice next time! No explanations just a polite "Sorry, I'm unable to do that".
Thanks again to everyone!! You have all been very helpful.
Lori
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Wedgewood
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posted on March 20, 2001 06:15:25 PM
Always declare the actual value of the item on the customs forms. You are responsible for what is written on that form, not the buyer. And if you include an invoice or copy of the closed auction from eBay, all the better. Your donkey is covered should customs happen to inspect the package.
Canadians are no different than anyone else...we have our fair share of weasels here that are always trying to cheat the 'guv' out of it's fair share. Don't play their game!
Keep in mind too, that honest customers, whatever nationality, would never ask you to lie.
Edited for ty*7[po!
[ edited by Wedgewood on Mar 20, 2001 06:18 PM ]
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mcbrunnhilde
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posted on March 21, 2001 10:29:36 AM
If you're planning to continue selling internationally and want to "play by the rules," perhaps a simple, non-negative statement in your TOS would be effective:
"International buyers please note: I include an invoice [or copy of the closed auction] with each order. I fill out customs forms using the sale price of the auction and a description that corresponds to the category of the auction."
That would cover you without alienating buyers by saying that you won't lie on customs forms.
Good luck!!
Without eBay, I might have a real life...
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Microbes
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posted on March 21, 2001 11:55:52 AM
bobokiki:
>There's a difference between asking for it nicely and demanding it "or else"
There is? Both ways sounds like Tax evasion to me. Why would a seller in the States want to falsify a customs form (and possibly have the wrath of 2 governments)to save you $$$?
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cdnbooks
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posted on March 21, 2001 12:26:02 PM
Why would a seller in the States want to falsify a customs form?"
Not sure. In fact, I have absolutely no idea. But many sellers do reduce the value or mark items are gifts without being asked by customers.
The world is a big place. In many parts of the world, cheating the Government is a very accepted way of life. Not everyone is as honest with their governments as Americans.
Bill
typo
[ edited by cdnbooks on Mar 21, 2001 12:27 PM ]
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